Hot Topic: Abortion

[Bachan]

I'm not looking for intense lengthy discussion where tempers go out of control. I'm looking for calm, collected, answers or at least direction-pointers. I might ask response questions to clarify or even to challenge. I will warn ahead of time, my views are not those common to either of the vocal sides and thus I've ticked off both during various conversations. I'm passionate and caring about life, but for me, being *correct* and *accurate* is equally as important. Hopefully having said that it will keep the usual subsequent flames down to a low simmer.

Okay.
TOPIC: What are the verses supporting the pro-life movement?
Namely verses supporting the two following phrases:
"Life (soul life) begins in the womb" ((I know biological life does))
"God calls it murder" ((this one floors me every time I see it))

And now a sub-TOPIC: My challenge as it were:
With the now forcasted legislation regarding restrictions and criminal penalties for abortions, where is the limit? Where does this trend stop?
Because I can easily see such trends extending (logically) to criminal penalties of "murder", "neglect", and "abuse" with regards to alcohol and drugs.
I can see it further extended in regards to normally okay vitamins and minerals that happen to be ill-advised for the mother when pregnant.
I can see it further extended for just activities such as exercise etc where the consensus isn't a consensus but if enough "capital letters" support it, the legislation might act on it as "final proof".
How then will we respond when a miscarriage or still-birth occurs? I can easily see the possibility that criminal charges will be leveled against the woman. Reason: The medical community has gotten technologically advanced enough that miscarriages and still-births should no long be possible (a false assumption but the case might be successfully made), thus any death of the fetus/newborn is the fault of the mother and thus she is criminally liable.

And thus, do we really want to go so far as one woman put it (commenting on the radio) "The current legislation is good, but not enough. I will not rest till every child (or fetus?) is protected from harm." Or something to that effect. This sound very very dangerous and calls into question (for me) even the idea of legally "banning abortions".

Please, please do not toss these comments out as being fanciful. We are now facing cloning and other genetic issues (even if the issues never come to pass). Our laws have gotten 'bass ackwards" in many respects in a number of different fields. While Jesus Christ controls history...we have the free will to royally mess it up.

Now as far as I know Exodus 21:22 and context (and similar passages that might be repeated elsewhere) is the only place that indicates a miscarriage or otherwise loss of the fetus. I maybe mistaken.

Thus I put it to you, a large community, a series of questions I have wanted to ask for some time now, specifically to the pro-lifers, but to christians in general. I place this thread here as I do not want to hear what an athiest or buddhist has to say on this topic.

I look forward to your thoughts and comments. Again, this is in no way meant to incite heat, I am not a cold-hearted jerk.

 

[TheDag]

Ok I'm not much help when it comes to verses but I do have a few thoughts.

Firstly I will say that I'm against abortion as a form of birth control and I support a womens right to say NO I won't get pregnant (but of course the only 100% method not to get pregnant is to not have sex). I do however believe if a woman is raped and becomes pregnant she should be allowed to have an abortion and also in the rare case where the mothers life in threatened.

I'm not aware of what laws exist in other countries but in NSW, Australia abortion is illegal unless the doctor thinks it may cause hardship. This means it is impossible to prosecute for abortions as you can't prove what a doctor was or wasn't thinking. Of course hardship is going to happen if you give birth babies cost money to take care of, they cry in the middle of the night and it will affect your social life so of course hardship is felt.

"Life (soul life) begins in the womb" ((I know biological life does))"
As far as abortion goes in regard to the above statement if it is acknowledged that life starts at the time of conception then to inject poison to kill the fetus must be murder of course that does create problems with part of my view above.
The other thing that often isn't mentioned is what damage is caused to the body by whatever is used to stop the fetus from developing and being born???

 

[servant4ever]

Psalml 139:13-16 is a great verse showing that life begins in the womb. It reads:

For you created my inmost being;


you knit me together in my mother's womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;

your works are wonderful,

I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you

when I was made in the secret place.

When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

16 your eyes saw my unformed body.

All the days ordained for me

were written in your book before one of them came to be. (NIV)

servant4ever

 

[Los]

I believe, in general, that abortion is wrong. But it can be a necessary evil. Should the mother die if her child is growing in an abnormal position or any other strange thing shoudl occur?

Education is one real way to curb such behavior. Education and moral responsibility, as in, owning up to what we have done.

 

[Surprised by joy]

Rule 4.2 e

 

[Surprised by joy]

Forgot. . . .

 

[Surprised by joy]

Sorry, Bachan, my sincere apologies. I moved it and then forgot to open it. My bad.

 

[Ave Maria]

Psalml 139:13-16 is a great verse showing that life begins in the womb. It reads:

For you created my inmost being;


you knit me together in my mother's womb.

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made;

your works are wonderful,

I know that full well.

15 My frame was not hidden from you

when I was made in the secret place.

When I was woven together in the depths of the earth,

16 your eyes saw my unformed body.

All the days ordained for me

were written in your book before one of them came to be. (NIV)

servant4ever

Just because this Psalm illustrates that life begins in the womb (which is a scientific fact that everyone already knows) it doesn't say that abortion is wrong in all circumstances. In fact, abortion isn't even mentioned in the Bible.

 

[servant4ever]

All I was doing is showing a passage that the pro-life people use. That's all, not trying to debate.

servant4ever

 

[Ave Maria]

All I was doing is showing a passage that the pro-life people use. That's all, not trying to debate.

servant4ever

Oh ok. My apologies. Thank you for clearing that up.

 

[Bachan]

np surprised, and thank you for being so nice in my error.

I appreciate the replies so far but might request that the blanket or simple "I believe abortion is wrong" (or right/okay) statements be limited. This is general theology and you all have an opinion you are welcome to have, and to share.

However, I posted this (the main topic) not just as a conversation starter but more as a research tool. I really am looking for the evidence and scriptures that the pro-life viewpoint uses as they relate to calling abortion murder, and to find Biblical support for the activism that threatens as I mentioned in the OP. (((side note: Thanks servant4ever )))

I did post the "sub topic" of the legislation as a challange to those who read it, primarily to those who classify themselves as "pro-life" but to others as well. NOT as a gauntlet to be thrown down and picked up, but as an issue and it's implication to be considered. I have yet to hear much of the implications of such activism discussed on the christian news and radio stations. And frankly it scares me.

I am truly concerned about trends of legal debates concerning life and freedom when it appears that the far or even medium reaching effects apparently aren't being considered and discussed. More so if the foundation on such a movement is more man than it is Biblical. I suspect but do not know as sure as I can be whether this movement is or isn't, ergo this thread.

My desire in all of this is to limit the effect of man's sensibilities - "well it's okay here but not here"..."why"..."well because __some reason that appeals to the heart and sounds worthy and worthwhile__?"

Abortion or miscarriage or otherwise loss of fetus is either *okay* or it's *not okay* according God, or if there is a matter of degrees then there should be an example or something in the Bible indicating how to treat the situation. I would think...but I'm mortal and have not studied the Bible intensely as much as a theologian or as perhaps some of you have.

 

[SumTinWong]

There is a word that is in the Bible that describes the process of abortion and it is called murder.

Abortion is the legalized murder of children.

I edited out a link I posted to a gallery of pictures of murdered children by their own. There is no way after seeing those pictures, that this is not murder. I didn't think the mods would appreciate the link, so I did not post it.

A questionaire:
1. There is a preacher and wife who are very, very poor. They already have 14 kids. Now she finds out she is pregnant with her 15th. They are living in tremendous poverty. Considering their poverty and the excessive world population, would you consider recommending abortion?

2. The father is sick with sniffles, the mother has TB. They have 4 children. The first is blind, the second is dead. The third is deaf and the fourth has TB. The mother finds she is pregnant again. Given the extreme situation, would you recommend abortion?

3. A man raped a 13 year old black girl and she got pregnant. If you were her parents, would you consider recommending abortion?

4. A teenage girl is pregnant. She is not married. Her fiancee is not the father of the baby, and he is very upset. Would you recommend an abortion?

 

[Bachan]

I appreciate your comments uncle bud. What is that word? Or what passage is it that describes the process of abortion as being murder?

I understand the feelings and emotions, however (I believe) images and (real) hypotheticals cannot take the place of doctrine.

I realize that concepts might not be *spelled out* in the Bible (the Trinity is an example), but it can be found and a case can be made for the Trinity using scripture. It is not a purely logical (or emotional) argument.

I mean no offense, I'm merely trying to get to the root of the matter.

 

[SumTinWong]

I appreciate your comments uncle bud. What is that word? Or what passage is it that describes the process of abortion as being murder?

Exodus 20:13 "You shall not murder."

The taking of a life is murder as defined by any dictionary.

The verb jXr (rasah) refers to the premeditated or accidental taking of the life of another human being; it includes any unauthorized killing. This commandment teaches the sanctity of all human life. See J. H. Yoder, “Exodus 20,13: ‘Thou Shalt Not Kill’,” Int 34 (1980): 394-99; and A. Phillips, “Another Look at Murder,” JJS 28 (1977): 105-26.

I understand the feelings and emotions, however (I believe) images and (real) hypotheticals cannot take the place of doctrine.

The examples were not hypothetical situations by the way they were real situations: The children turned out to be: #1 John Wesley, #2 Beethoven, #3 Ethel Waters, and #4 Jesus the Christ.

I realize that concepts might not be *spelled out* in the Bible (the Trinity is an example), but it can be found and a case can be made for the Trinity using scripture. It is not a purely logical (or emotional) argument.

It is spelled out Bachan. Thou shalt not kill.

I mean no offense, I'm merely trying to get to the root of the matter.

No problem.

 

[Bachan]

"You shall not murder."

What defines murder?

"Killing of a human being." - okay

What is a human being?

As I understand it, a human being is a person with a body and soul. It's what separates us from animals, otherwise killing animals would be considered murder.

As I understand a fetus does not have a soul.

If this is the key point - and if you are saying that a fetus does have a soul thus is a human being and thus can be "murdered", okay. I disagree but my agreement or disagreement isn't why I started the thread. And for this reason I won't get into why I understand (believe that) a fetus does not have a soul.

So, to summarize. (please correct me if I've got it wrong) The stand of abortion being wrong on level with murder is the belief that a fetus also has soul life. OR the assumption that by virtue of "human potential" the death of such potential (irregardless of soul or not) is "murder". And the support of this belief are such passages as found in Psalms "I knew you before birth" statements, and passages as it pertains to the (unauthorized) killing of another human being (body and soul). ?

 

[BjBarnett]

ending a human life is wrong. abortion is ending a human life.

 

[SumTinWong]

As I understand a fetus does not have a soul.

When does in your opinion a baby recieve his/her soul?

So, to summarize. (please correct me if I've got it wrong) The stand of abortion being wrong on level with murder is the belief that a fetus also has soul life.

That is correct.

OR the assumption that by virtue of "human potential" the death of such potential (irregardless of soul or not) is "murder". And the support of this belief are such passages as found in Psalms "I knew you before birth" statements, and passages as it pertains to the (unauthorized) killing of another human being (body and soul). ?

Yes.

Just a side note:
What does the word Fetus mean?

It is Latin for "unborn Baby". What is a baby?

 

[Ave Maria]

Just a side note:
What does the word Fetus mean?

It is Latin for "unborn Baby". What is a baby?

Using semantics here doesn't really work. We have to go with the modern meaning of the word. I could say that the word cat in Latin actually means Lion but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's true. Remember, Latin and English are two totally different languages.

 

[Bachan]

Nehshemah (sp?) the breath of life arrives at birth. The baby's first breath of air. I've got the passage and support but I don't want to debate when soul and biological life meet right now. Reason is it's somewhat distracting from my intent at the moment, and it gets deeper into an issue of old sin nature and condemnation and how it affects the mother and the fetus that I have not had enough learning into to discuss confidently.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I'm not looking for intense lengthy discussion where tempers go out of control. I'm looking for calm, collected, answers or at least direction-pointers. I might ask response questions to clarify or even to challenge. I will warn ahead of time, my views are not those common to either of the vocal sides and thus I've ticked off both during various conversations. I'm passionate and caring about life, but for me, being *correct* and *accurate* is equally as important. Hopefully having said that it will keep the usual subsequent flames down to a low simmer.

Okay.
TOPIC: What are the verses supporting the pro-life movement?
Namely verses supporting the two following phrases:
"Life (soul life) begins in the womb" ((I know biological life does))
"God calls it murder" ((this one floors me every time I see it))

And now a sub-TOPIC: My challenge as it were:
With the now forcasted legislation regarding restrictions and criminal penalties for abortions, where is the limit? Where does this trend stop?
Because I can easily see such trends extending (logically) to criminal penalties of "murder", "neglect", and "abuse" with regards to alcohol and drugs.
I can see it further extended in regards to normally okay vitamins and minerals that happen to be ill-advised for the mother when pregnant.
I can see it further extended for just activities such as exercise etc where the consensus isn't a consensus but if enough "capital letters" support it, the legislation might act on it as "final proof".
How then will we respond when a miscarriage or still-birth occurs? I can easily see the possibility that criminal charges will be leveled against the woman. Reason: The medical community has gotten technologically advanced enough that miscarriages and still-births should no long be possible (a false assumption but the case might be successfully made), thus any death of the fetus/newborn is the fault of the mother and thus she is criminally liable.

And thus, do we really want to go so far as one woman put it (commenting on the radio) "The current legislation is good, but not enough. I will not rest till every child (or fetus?) is protected from harm." Or something to that effect. This sound very very dangerous and calls into question (for me) even the idea of legally "banning abortions".

Please, please do not toss these comments out as being fanciful. We are now facing cloning and other genetic issues (even if the issues never come to pass). Our laws have gotten 'bass ackwards" in many respects in a number of different fields. While Jesus Christ controls history...we have the free will to royally mess it up.

Now as far as I know Exodus 21:22 and context (and similar passages that might be repeated elsewhere) is the only place that indicates a miscarriage or otherwise loss of the fetus. I maybe mistaken.

Thus I put it to you, a large community, a series of questions I have wanted to ask for some time now, specifically to the pro-lifers, but to christians in general. I place this thread here as I do not want to hear what an athiest or buddhist has to say on this topic.

I look forward to your thoughts and comments. Again, this is in no way meant to incite heat, I am not a cold-hearted jerk.

You will find all the answers you need on this subject in the Didache.

CHAPTER 2

The second part of the teaching

1 But the second commandment of the teaching is this: 2 "Thou shalt do no murder; thou shalt not commit adultery"; thou shalt not commit sodomy; thou shalt not commit fornication; thou shalt not steal; thou shalt not use magic; thou shalt not use philtres; thou shalt not procure abortion, nor commit infanticide; "thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's goods"; 3 thou shalt not commit perjury, "thou shalt not bear false witness"; thou shalt not speak evil; thou shalt not bear malice. 4 Thou shalt not be double-minded nor double-tongued, for to be double-tongued is the snare of death. 5 Thy speech shall not be false nor vain, but completed in action. 6 Thou shalt not be covetous nor extortionate, nor a hypocrite, nor malignant, nor proud; thou shalt make no evil plan against thy neighbour. 7 Thou shalt hate no man; but some thou shalt reprove, and for some shalt thou pray, and some thou shalt love more than thine own life.