Hot Topic: Abortion

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

Whilst I am pro-life in my stance, I find myself hating the stigma that can give me almost immediately around women who have, or may have, an abortion. They view me as judgemental, unsympathetic and a 'one solution fits all' kind of person, which is not the case at all!

One problem I do see within the pro-life camp, is an inability to look at the woman's issues with the pregnancy. I often see a lot say 'abortion is murder' (and it is), but how does that help the woman who is dealing with a pregnancy that has come unexpectedly and is not wanted, or is a danger to her or the child itself?

I work in a hospital, where abortions do occur. A lot of these women are married, and are having abortions for reasons such as genetic defects, dangers to themselves, and in rare occasions, because the baby is a particular sex, and they are carriers of a gene which means this baby will die within 48 hours of birth, and this baby has been tested and confirmed to have this disease. They are doing what they believe is the LEAST heartbreaking option they have.

It took me going to a Post Abortion Stress Syndrome (PASS) discussion board to realise the pain most of these women seeking abortions go through. Telling them abortion is murder, is not going to help them. BEING THERE for them will. A lot of these women go through this horrific procedure due to external pressure being put on them (family belief, partner, friends), and are often NOT in a frame of mind where 'this is murder' is going to make any difference to them. At that point, 9 months of pregnancy is a terrifying thought - especially if they have an unsupportive home, abusive partner, unstable living situation, etc etc. Unless we are willing to come alongside each woman who is having an abortion for what some of us call 'selfish' reasons (financial, outside pressure, homelife issues), then how can we judge her, when she's trying to do the best thing for the REST of her family?

This does not mean we sugarcoat the truth. However, we have to ask ourselves - is waving placards and yelling at these women going into these centres REALLY helping them? Or is it increasing the torment and fear they all ready have inside?

I believe dealing with abortion has to be a case by case situation. If pro-life campaigners were a bit more sympathetic to the women considering this type of procedure, I would venture to say that most of them would be willing to listen to us.

Sasch -> who is still pro-life but refuses to stand outside an abortion centre screaming at terrified women making probably THE hardest decision of their life (and often when they REALLY don't want to)...

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

Whilst I am pro-life in my stance, I find myself hating the stigma that can give me almost immediately around women who have, or may have, an abortion. They view me as judgemental, unsympathetic and a 'one solution fits all' kind of person, which is not the case at all!

One problem I do see within the pro-life camp, is an inability to look at the woman's issues with the pregnancy. I often see a lot say 'abortion is murder' (and it is), but how does that help the woman who is dealing with a pregnancy that has come unexpectedly and is not wanted, or is a danger to her or the child itself?

I work in a hospital, where abortions do occur. A lot of these women are married, and are having abortions for reasons such as genetic defects, dangers to themselves, and in rare occasions, because the baby is a particular sex, and they are carriers of a gene which means this baby will die within 48 hours of birth, and this baby has been tested and confirmed to have this disease. They are doing what they believe is the LEAST heartbreaking option they have.

It took me going to a Post Abortion Stress Syndrome (PASS) discussion board to realise the pain most of these women seeking abortions go through. Telling them abortion is murder, is not going to help them. BEING THERE for them will. A lot of these women go through this horrific procedure due to external pressure being put on them (family belief, partner, friends), and are often NOT in a frame of mind where 'this is murder' is going to make any difference to them. At that point, 9 months of pregnancy is a terrifying thought - especially if they have an unsupportive home, abusive partner, unstable living situation, etc etc. Unless we are willing to come alongside each woman who is having an abortion for what some of us call 'selfish' reasons (financial, outside pressure, homelife issues), then how can we judge her, when she's trying to do the best thing for the REST of her family?

This does not mean we sugarcoat the truth. However, we have to ask ourselves - is waving placards and yelling at these women going into these centres REALLY helping them? Or is it increasing the torment and fear they all ready have inside?

I believe dealing with abortion has to be a case by case situation. If pro-life campaigners were a bit more sympathetic to the women considering this type of procedure, I would venture to say that most of them would be willing to listen to us.

Sasch -> who is still pro-life but refuses to stand outside an abortion centre screaming at terrified women making probably THE hardest decision of their life (and often when they REALLY don't want to)...

It may interest you to know that "The Church" has always considered this to be a "deadly" sin, however there is forgiveness inside "The Church" for it as well. Usually a person who has an abortion or gives an abortion can't partake of the sacrements for 10 years.

That does not give another person a right to pass judgement such as we see when someone takes matters into thier own hands and kills a doctor who performs abortions...

Forgive me....

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Nehshemah (sp?) the breath of life arrives at birth. The baby's first breath of air. I've got the passage and support but I don't want to debate when soul and biological life meet right now. Reason is it's somewhat distracting from my intent at the moment, and it gets deeper into an issue of old sin nature and condemnation and how it affects the mother and the fetus that I have not had enough learning into to discuss confidently.

The verse you have is often used out of context if it is the one I am thinking of. I think Jer. 1:5 does the best job of explaining that life begins before conception even:

[bible]Jeremiah 1:5[/bible]

Please note that "before you came out of the womb" part of the verse, and the comment on when God knows us. You can throw up smoke screens all day long and quote verses out of context but the reality is that abortion is murder. It is murder on a scale such that the sheer number matches that of the holocaust every 48 days.

 

[jands2004]

Do you think there are any cases in which abortion is "okay?"

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

That does not give another person a right to pass judgement such as we see when someone takes matters into thier own hands and kills a doctor who performs abortions...

Forgive me....

You are so right. We cannot take the life of a doctor of our own volition, that is murder as well. Judgement on that level is God's and His alone!

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

Do you think there are any cases in which abortion is "okay?"

I could see justifying a mother's life in danger clause, but since those situations comprise less than 1% of abortions performed in the US it is kind of a moot point for all intents and purposes. I do not support abortion in rape situations, there is no need to add murder to the crime already committed.

 

[jands2004]

I just asked a question. I wasn't defending any sort of belief.

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

I just asked a question. I wasn't defending any sort of belief.

I explained for the benefit of those that would have asked questions had I not dones so. You got more information that you asked for and I saved myself the trouble of explaining myself later, win/win.

 

[Bachan]

I've seen one clear case of a non-scriptural (I'm assuming as I don't recognize the title used) reference to abortion strictly defined as wrong on level with murder.
I've seen one clear case of a scriptural reference to an aborted or miscarried fetus being defined as wrong on level with destruction of property.
I've seen a few references that might indicate the baby might have soul life....thus might relate to murder but by inference only. "knowing while in the womb" does not in itself say that abortion is murder because it does not say that "soul is in the womb". ((I say this because the scriptures also say he knew us before the foundation of the world...this doesn't mean we all pre-exist)) I realize semantics and inference and "by definitions" on either side as it so stands now.

Any more? Perhaps with the exegesis? I'm not looking to prove my case here as I can do that for myself later, I'm looking for proof on the pro-life case on level with what I have or can get access to. Primarily the greek/hebrew terms and verses with their possible definitions and use.

p.s. thanks for the jeremiah verse, that "sanctified" is something I will look into later.

 

[OrthodoxyUSA]

I've seen one clear case of a non-scriptural (I'm assuming as I don't recognize the title used) reference to abortion strictly defined as wrong on level with murder.

This is the position of "The Church"... see post #20

Forgive me....

 

[Letalis]

You know, a lot of pro-choice people say that abortion should be legal because they could get harmed from unqualified doctors. They tell us that the mother might die or get extremely injured. But I don't understand why I'm supposed to care. They go to get their child murdered, and then I'm expected to feel bad that they died while trying to kill their child? That's why we should make abortion legal, because the mother might die in the process of killing her child?

 

[kimber1]

[bible]Jeremiah 1:5[/bible]

i know it's already been said but it cannot be said enough.

God knew us before we were even formed. abortion is flat out murder. there's no way to sugar coat.

in the case of rape, no i do not think the mother should be able to have an abortion even then because adoption is ALWAYS available. hardship gives NO right to murder an innoccent child. social problems? not beng able to go out and party??????? how selfish. that baby didn't ask to be born. they also didn't ask to be killed.

and that what abortion is pure and simple.

the grief and guilt a woman must endure afterwards, sometimes years down the road is NOTHING compared to what that baby felt.

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

I don't agree with making abortions illegal. Yep can see the shocked looks from people who can't understand that coming out of a pro-lifers mouth...

As I've said, my hospital does do abortions (usually suction curette or dilatation and curette). A lot of those women are having them because of fetal demise - which isn't really abortion, but the exact SAME technique is used, and it still comes under the definition of 'abortion' according to medical texts, and the codes we put into the computers during theatre for budget purposes.

If we were to make abortion illegal, then there would be cases where women could NOT have procedures like this, for when the baby dies in utero. They would be dying from infections caused by the dead fetus/baby still remaining in her womb, so no, I do not agree with making abortions illegal.

I also believe that abortion, although murder, is often the ONLY possible option for a pregnant woman. I know a lot of women who if they have a child, will die in labour. They are taking ALL the necessary precautions not to fall pregnant, but if they did, they would NOT be able to take the pregnancy to term, and would probably die. For them, abortion is the LEAST dangerous option for them to take, and I'm not going to be the one who tells them, 'oh let's just wait and see'... Do I take a mother away from her family in this instance? That is a decision for her and her husband to make, and I honestly can understand that woman, if she chooses to save her own life for her family's sake and ends the pregnancy.

I have some friends, who if they have a boy, the boy will not live past infancy, because of them being carriers of a defective gene. They are going through testing to ensure that any child they conceive will be female instead of male. I can't judge a couple who decided to terminate because their child is a boy, rather than dealing with the heartbreak of a baby's death. Neither option is easy (terminating or continuing with the pregnancy and having the baby die early), but sometimes, abortion in this instant is LESS heartbreaking than watching your child die in infancy.

Abortion is a very grey area. Yes there are women who knowingly go in for 'selfish' reasons (family pressure, financial pressure, immaturity), and a lot of them I am sympathetic too (especially the ones who were coerced into it, or were in an abusive relationship). But it is for the sakes of those who have to make the LEAST horrific decision, and for the ones who will die of infections if an abortion technique is made illegal, that I have to say I cannot endorse abortion being made illegal.

Sasch

 

[kimber1]

i don't know...to me that's where trust in GOD needs to come into play. i understand what you're saying but still...

 

[Sascha Fitzpatrick]

That's ok...

I just get concerned when all I hear is 'abortion is murder', when I know there are reasons for an abortion that people haven't thought of.

Making abortion illegal covers the making of suction curettes/dilatations and curettages illegal. Which means, if a woman has a miscarriage/death of a baby in utero, and there are still 'products of conception/a dead child' in her womb, then she is unable to have her womb evacuated, and her life is in jeopardy - I'd say there'd be a 100% chance of death in that case. I think the statistics say that when there is fetal death, you only have about a 30% chance or so of your body expelling the baby naturally (which is agony in and of itself as well - exactly the same as labour). I'm not going to endorse the banning of procedures like this that can save a woman's life, when her baby dies in pregnancy.

And, not all women will have the mindset of 'God can work a miracle' in situations where carrying a baby to term will have a good chance of killing her, or the baby is the gender carrying the defective gene that will kill it in early childhood. I might have that mindset (and I hope my future hubby would too), but most women don't. Most women are trying to do the right thing in a situation like that for all concerned - her, her husband, her family, etc. I'm not going to endorse making abortion illegal and force people to rely on a miracle to happen. Not everyone is a Christian - and telling a non-Christian to believe on a miracle in this situation, when they are facing either the death of themselves or the death of an infant, is not going to help in this situation.

Sasch

 

[DWINNIE]

Would it surprise you all if I told you that there are more women deaths and complications now due to legal abortions in America than before it was legal due to back street clinics? And this is in relation to the increasing number if abortions.You can dress it up all you like abortion is murder ,I dont feel women are being given all the options .Abortion is treated like just another little op i.ts only after they realise what they have done

 

[EdmundBlackadderTheThird]

That's ok...

I just get concerned when all I hear is 'abortion is murder', when I know there are reasons for an abortion that people haven't thought of.

Making abortion illegal covers the making of suction curettes/dilatations and curettages illegal. Which means, if a woman has a miscarriage/death of a baby in utero, and there are still 'products of conception/a dead child' in her womb, then she is unable to have her womb evacuated, and her life is in jeopardy - I'd say there'd be a 100% chance of death in that case. I think the statistics say that when there is fetal death, you only have about a 30% chance or so of your body expelling the baby naturally (which is agony in and of itself as well - exactly the same as labour). I'm not going to endorse the banning of procedures like this that can save a woman's life, when her baby dies in pregnancy.

And, not all women will have the mindset of 'God can work a miracle' in situations where carrying a baby to term will have a good chance of killing her, or the baby is the gender carrying the defective gene that will kill it in early childhood. I might have that mindset (and I hope my future hubby would too), but most women don't. Most women are trying to do the right thing in a situation like that for all concerned - her, her husband, her family, etc. I'm not going to endorse making abortion illegal and force people to rely on a miracle to happen. Not everyone is a Christian - and telling a non-Christian to believe on a miracle in this situation, when they are facing either the death of themselves or the death of an infant, is not going to help in this situation.

Sasch

This is easily dealt with when making laws. You simply allow for a dead fetus to be removed. No-one wants to make the procedures themselves illegal, only their use on live babies. The smokescreen of making the procedures illegal is a strawman. The fact is that these procedures would not be outlawed for use as medical necessity. A mother's life in danger clause to any law would prevent what you are worried about from happening.

I would gladly endorse making abortion illegal in almost all of the circumstances you mentioned. Whether a person is Christian or not the absolute right and wrong in scripture still applies and cannot be denied.

 

[kimber1]

exactly flesh. i think were these women to be counselled ahead of time on the long term effects of abortion they'd never go through with it.

the pain, the emptiness, the sheer anguish of guilt that one would or should feel should be imprinted on them so they realize the repercussions....

 

[DWINNIE]

I have to tell you about Lee a little boy born at 25 weeks .He weighed just over 1 pound and spent many months in hosptal .And many in my church prayed constantly for him.Now his mum brings him to church every week. Although still small for his age he will be 1 at easter and is perfect.He has overcome all problems from his early birth- The sad point to this tale is that every year thousand s of `LEES`are dissected and flushed down the toilet. Is this right- No

 

[choop1212]

I have to tell you about Lee a little boy born at 25 weeks .He weighed just over 1 pound and spent many months in hosptal .And many in my church prayed constantly for him.Now his mum brings him to church every week. Although still small for his age he will be 1 at easter and is perfect.He has overcome all problems from his early birth- The sad point to this tale is that every year thousand s of `LEES`are dissected and flushed down the toilet. Is this right- No

I agree completly!