Hoping to have a discussion with Pro-Lifers about the following:

[childeye 2]

Respectfully, this is how your post looked when I clicked Reply.

As a side note, I have seen better attempts at gotcha questions.

Okay, I grant you that the thought was unfinished and I posted too quickly. But the words are your words and I am challenging you to defend your representation or misrepresentation of God's Holy Character. Do you still think God would ask that question?

 

[thecolorsblend]

Okay, I grant you that the thought was unfinished and I posted too quickly. But the words are your words and I am challenging you to defend your representation or misrepresentation of God's Holy Character. Do you still think God would ask that question?

I applaud your persistence.

But I do not applaud your attempt at a gotcha question.

 

[Albion]

Pro-lifers like myself see it as murdering children. So it should be easy to see why it would make someone a single issue voter.

Certainly.

I think the best inroads to our group is to differentiate between pro-life and pro-choice. The majority are in between.

I actually hold identical beliefs with some who are pro-choice because they are against abortion except for certain circumstances like the physical health of the mother.

In principle, I tend to agree, but there is no getting around the fact that if "the health of the mother" provides an exception to the rule, then "she's a nervous wreck over this" or "she's worried sick that she won't be able to afford a child" will surely become "the health of the mother" issues.

 

[childeye 2]

I applaud your persistence.

But I do not applaud your attempt at a gotcha question.

I don't wish to trouble you. Please be at peace.

 

[Halbhh]

Abortion rates declined when Clinton was President and having sexual relations with harlots in the Oval Office while news of his affairs filled the newspapers daily. Declines in abortion rates have absolutely nothing to do with the occupant of the White House.

Look closer though at the slopes and years...

Abortion statistics in the United States - Wikipedia

Notice how the rate was declining fairly fast until 1995, but then stopped declining for a while, and then declined only slowly after that...?

Interesting! Because:

The Clinton–Lewinsky scandal was a United States political sex scandal that involved 49-year-old President Bill Clinton and 22-year-old White House intern Monica Lewinsky. The sexual relationship took place between 1995 and 1997 and came to light in 1998.
Clinton–Lewinsky scandal - Wikipedia

As you can see, the U.S. abortion rate fell under Clinton, but it fell much faster until Clinton started cheating.

Once Clinton started cheating, the rapid decline in abortion ended.

That's just interesting.... it seems people could pick up on it subconsciously!

A change in atmosphere.

 

[Halbhh]

And the rapid decline in abortion only resumed when Obama was in office.

But...now it's stopped again....

 

[renniks]

And the rapid decline in abortion only resumed when Obama was in office.

But...now it's stopped again....

Lol, again with blaming everything on presidents? They don't have that much power.

 

[Halbhh]

Lol, again with blaming everything on presidents? They don't have that much power.

I wish that were more fully correct, but it seems a president does have influence.

Post 86 was a continuation of post 85, where something fascinating came to light

 

[Lionel20]

In the past, I do believe that to be true. Republican candidates understood back then that they needed to pay lip service to the pro-life cause but there was never any real will to do something about it. If nothing else, the people who owned those candidates didn't really care either way about abortion and had no interest in fighting that battle.

Considering how well funded, how well organized and how vocal the pro-life movement has been since RVW was handed down, there's literally no reason for them to have not been successful in their efforts, except that the people they vote for simply did not want to take up that cause.

Having said all that, there's been a pretty big sea change in recent years. Republicans have taken serious steps toward banning abortion or, lacking that, restricting access to abortion as much as possible. Some efforts have been successful while others have not but at least now, there's actual debate happening about it in the places that matter.

When it comes to the pro-life cause at this stage, change is good. And indeed, change has been very good. For us anyway, not so much the pro-abortion movement.

"Safe environment" or not, murder is murder.

So alternatives to abortion do work? Interesting.

I think the pro-abortion types out there miss the forest for the trees when they ask questions like this.

Personally, I'm fine with it. I'm not the one who will have to stand before God someday and explain my support and advocacy for murder. No regrets.

You're aware that abortion was illegal in most States before Roe v Wade? Abortion pills will be sold on the illicit markets following the overturning of Roe v Wade, or families will fly/drive to States that allow for abortions. Overturning Roe v Wade and banning abortion clinics does little to nothing to reduce abortion rates.

And this is the issue we all should have with mainstream social thought in the church today.

If I told you that there's a method and policy that effectively reduces abortions as opposed to just returning to criminalizing it, it seems that there is little interest among the pro-life movement. So is this really about abortion being murder and we need to stop it?

Since you brought it to the judgement seat, what would God say about a church that cheers on a President that supports such inhumane treatment of children at the border in exchange for a promise to stop the "murder" of innocent children--which he's still failing to do?

 

[Albion]

If I told you that there's a method and policy that effectively reduces abortions as opposed to just returning to criminalizing it, it seems that there is little interest among the pro-life movement.

Is there one? Is there a method or policy that would eliminate abortions to the level that making it illegal would? If so, what is it?

 

[Redwingfan9]

Look closer though at the slopes and years...

Abortion statistics in the United States - Wikipedia

Notice how the rate was declining fairly fast until 1995, but then stopped declining for a while, and then declined only slowly after that...?

Interesting! Because:

The Clinton–Lewinsky scandal was a United States political sex scandal that involved 49-year-old President Bill Clinton and 22-year-old White House intern Monica Lewinsky. The sexual relationship took place between 1995 and 1997 and came to light in 1998.
Clinton–Lewinsky scandal - Wikipedia

As you can see, the U.S. abortion rate fell under Clinton, but it fell much faster until Clinton started cheating.

Once Clinton started cheating, the rapid decline in abortion ended.

That's just interesting.... it seems people could pick up on it subconsciously!

A change in atmosphere.

No one knew who Monica Lewinsky was until 1998 which blows the top off your argument that people started following the President in his whoremongering and had more abortions as a result beginning in 1995.

 

[thecolorsblend]

You're aware that abortion was illegal in most States before Roe v Wade? Abortion pills will be sold on the illicit markets following the overturning of Roe v Wade, or families will fly/drive to States that allow for abortions. Overturning Roe v Wade and banning abortion clinics does little to nothing to reduce abortion rates.

The objective is to withdraw the legality of abortion. As you say, abortions may still occur. And if they do, they can be prosecuted accordingly.

Your own numbers from earlier in this thread show that at the same time several states began tightening restrictions on abortion laws, the number of abortions dropped.

And this is the issue we all should have with mainstream social thought in the church today.

I have no issue with opposing abortion. That's one of my more important agenda items.

If I told you that there's a method and policy that effectively reduces abortions as opposed to just returning to criminalizing it,

That's the problem. This isn't an either/or proposition even tho you seem to keep trying to make it one.

Banning abortions reduces the number of abortions so that course of action should be pursued. If other methods and policies further reduce abortions, I see no harm in pursuing those as well.

it seems that there is little interest among the pro-life movement.

Hello straw man, nice to meet you.

So is this really about abortion being murder and we need to stop it?

Yup.

Since you brought it to the judgement seat, what would God say about a church that cheers on a President that supports such inhumane treatment of children at the border in exchange for a promise to stop the "murder" of innocent children--which he's still failing to do?

Let's not get off topic here. This discussion is about opposing abortion.

 

[childeye 2]

The objective is to withdraw the legality of abortion. As you say, abortions may still occur. And if they do, they can be prosecuted accordingly.
Let's not get off topic here. This discussion is about opposing abortion.

I oppose abortion too but my objective isn't to prosecute anybody.

 

[Halbhh]

No one knew who Monica Lewinsky was until 1998 which blows the top off your argument that people started following the President in his whoremongering and had more abortions as a result beginning in 1995.

Just read the post through more completely and ask if a sentence is unclear!

 

[Lionel20]

Is there one? Is there a method or policy that would eliminate abortions to the level that making it illegal would? If so, what is it?

Allocating funds toward contraceptive care, sex education, and professional counseling.

Technically, overturning Roe v Wade does not make abortion illegal, it punts the authority to the States. When you say "making [abortion] illegal" are you talking about legislation a court decision that bans abortion on the federal level? Do pro-lifers want that kind of government expansion? Doesn't seem conservative.

 

[Lionel20]

The objective is to withdraw the legality of abortion. As you say, abortions may still occur. And if they do, they can be prosecuted accordingly.

Your own numbers from earlier in this thread show that at the same time several states began tightening restrictions on abortion laws, the number of abortions dropped.

I have no issue with opposing abortion. That's one of my more important agenda items.

That's the problem. This isn't an either/or proposition even tho you seem to keep trying to make it one.

Banning abortions reduces the number of abortions so that course of action should be pursued. If other methods and policies further reduce abortions, I see no harm in pursuing those as well.

Hello straw man, nice to meet you.

Yup.

Let's not get off topic here. This discussion is about opposing abortion.

Overturning Roe v Wade and federally banning all abortions are two different things.

Shutting down abortions clinics will just make abortion medication go through the illicit market. It's not going to curb the demand women will have for abortions.

Preventative initiatives are the best ways to combat abortions.

 

[Albion]

Allocating funds toward contraceptive care, sex education, and professional counseling.

So the answer is "no."

 

[childeye 2]

So the answer is "no."

The answer is Christ working on a personal level. The law isn't going to solve anything that has to do with sin or the lusts of the flesh. I'm Pro-life but not as a political slogan, even because as a Christian I know that the law cannot impart life. There's a reason why righteousness comes by grace through faith and not through the works of the law. Anyway, now with Trump leading the charge, it all the more makes the entire endeavor look like a righteous cause to gather around to make a show that you're for God.

 

[Albion]

The answer is Christ working on a personal level. The law isn't going to solve anything that has to do with sin or the lusts of the flesh.

I'd be interested in your explanation of how that would work with other acts of violence that are experienced in society, not just abortion.

 

[childeye 2]

I'd be interested in your explanation of how that would work with other acts of violence that are experienced in society, not just abortion.

Presently, I have to go to work and chase down a stupid dollar.