Honest Question.

Margaret3110 said:

Only God knows. But to say they were not saved despite baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit seems pretty presumptuous ...?

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That's not what I said. I said they were not saved when they were baptized in water. It was likely months afterwards before they received the Holy Spirit. This goes directly to the OP's question. Is salvation instantaneous or is it a process. The answer is, it is a process. That process might be short for some, but long for others.

Baptized not with water but with spirit. Being taught flesh is only the vehicle, a tool. An awakening to realize there is more to us than just flesh. That awakening allows God to come to and connect with us. God does not hijack unwilling flesh.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Is salvation always instantaneous? Or is it sometimes a process?

For example, Abdu Murry had a long process before he left Islam and converted to Christianity.

I wonder if, even in the process of Abdu's salvation, there was ever a particular point where he went from unsaved to saved.

Thanks for any replies.

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We might describe it as a moment in time but for God outside of time everything happened instantaneously.

HTacianas said:

That's not what I said. I said they were not saved when they were baptized in water. It was likely months afterwards before they received the Holy Spirit. This goes directly to the OP's question. Is salvation instantaneous or is it a process. The answer is, it is a process. That process might be short for some, but long for others.

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Then it wouldn't it be more fair to say they were in the process of being saved, than that they were not saved?

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Is salvation always instantaneous? Or is it sometimes a process?

For example, Abdu Murry had a long process before he left Islam and converted to Christianity.

I wonder if, even in the process of Abdu's salvation, there was ever a particular point where he went from unsaved to saved.

Thanks for any replies.

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I believe salvation and sanctification go hand-in-hand and it is a process. However, I believe once we are saved we have a continual choice to obey God so he can do his work in us and through us. We have to "abide" in God's love and not fall away. John 15:10-12

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Matthew 24:12-13

12 Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

For some especially one who is around people who knows the correct teaching on how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life. These people will not have a long process to Eternal Life salvation. Especially if they are a child and have grown up around the correct teachings. When ever that type of person matures enough to understand how to receive God's free gift of Eternal Life, then they will in a moment of time trust in the Messiah for Eternal Life.

Where other people who are exposed to obedience, work based Eternal Life salvation teachings (this can be from other religions or from with in christian religions).
It will take them may be a while to weed through the false teaching on Eternal Life salvation's. To then come to understand that it is by faith in The Messiah that gives a person God's free gift of Eternal Life.

That is what Jesus is addressing in John 6, Do not labor for the food that perishes. Some people will have to come to see that the food (eternal life salvation) that they are laboring for, is a perishing eternal life salvation.

Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Margaret3110 said:

Then it wouldn't it be more fair to say they were in the process of being saved, than that they were not saved?

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We're not talking about whether or not they were saved, but at what point were they saved. The OP asked if salvation was instantaneous or if it is a process. I answered, it is a process. We are now discussing that process. So, at what point in that process were they saved? Were they saved when they believed? Were they saved when they were baptized in water? Were they saved when they had hands laid on them to receive the Holy Spirit?

HTacianas said:

We're not talking about whether or not they were saved, but at what point were they saved. The OP asked if salvation was instantaneous or if it is a process. I answered, it is a process. We are now discussing that process. So, at what point in that process were they saved? Were they saved when they believed? Were they saved when they were baptized in water? Were they saved when they had hands laid on them to receive the Holy Spirit?

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I asked a question because I was confused by your comment that they were "not saved" (your words). Now you seem to be asking me to identify a moment when they were saved, when I already said earlier in the thread that I think it's a process.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Is salvation always instantaneous? Or is it sometimes a process?

For example, Abdu Murry had a long process before he left Islam and converted to Christianity.

I wonder if, even in the process of Abdu's salvation, there was ever a particular point where he went from unsaved to saved.

Thanks for any replies.

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For some there is a process that leads to belief. Once one believes, they are instantly regenerated by His Holy Spirit and saved.
Blessings.

d taylor said:

“This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

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Yes, that the Kingdom of God is coming to replace the ways of man.

timothyu said:

Yes, that the Kingdom of God is coming to replace the ways of man.

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Yes with a casual reading of The Bible that can be seen. But i was not making that point in my post.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Is salvation always instantaneous? Or is it sometimes a process?

For example, Abdu Murry had a long process before he left Islam and converted to Christianity.

I wonder if, even in the process of Abdu's salvation, there was ever a particular point where he went from unsaved to saved.

Thanks for any replies.

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In your spirit it is instantaneous. It just takes a while for your mind to catch up with what has happened in your spirit.
Your mind will be transformed into the spirit that God has placed into you. I have been a believer for 51 years. It is still happening.

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Is salvation always instantaneous? Or is it sometimes a process?

For example, Abdu Murry had a long process before he left Islam and converted to Christianity.

I wonder if, even in the process of Abdu's salvation, there was ever a particular point where he went from unsaved to saved.

Thanks for any replies.

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We are saved when we accept the Gospel and Jesus as our savior but that is just the beginning of the process of becoming Christ like which is a lifetime process.

I really like this 7 min speech on the subject.

The issue can be how we are using the word "salvation", because are we talking about part of God's work of saving us--e.g. the reception of faith? Or are we talking about the whole thing? Because salvation is a very multi-faceted thing. It's why theologians have spoken about things such as the Ordo Salutis ("order of salvation") and have spoken about discrete concepts such as justification, sanctification/theosis, and glorification.

I have a suspicion that when many Protestants are talking about salvation they are talking about justification more specifically. And specifically within the more Reformed understanding of justification (as opposed to the Lutheran or Catholic views). Thus justification is understood as a singular and instantaneous moment,

In Lutheranism we speak of justification doubly as the objective work of Christ accomplished on the cross, which is universal; and we speak of the way we benefit from His once-and-finished work through faith which God creates in us. Thus justification becomes understood as an ever-present reality; not a process, but neither a singular moment in time. We are justified because God declares us just, God declare us just on Christ's account because of what He has done, and through faith the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us: that is an ever-present truth. God is declaring us just even right now, thus we can point to the external word of God in Word and Sacrament--to our baptism, to our hearing the Gospel, to the Lord's Supper, to Confession and Absolution--and say here God is declaring us just on Christ's account, we are justified on Christ's account alone, as grace alone, and through faith alone.

As per Lutheran thinking, sanctification and our future glorification all depend on justification; and thus our salvation is to be said to be entirely by the grace of God alone through faith. That salvation is God's gift and work, it is what He is always giving, always working by His grace. We are being saved because God is always at work giving us salvation as pure gift--as grace alone. And we are always the passive recipients of His grace and work, through the gift of faith alone. Thus salvation by grace alone through faith alone as the Evangelical Reformers understood it.

-CryptoLutheran

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Is salvation always instantaneous? Or is it sometimes a process?

For example, Abdu Murry had a long process before he left Islam and converted to Christianity.

I wonder if, even in the process of Abdu's salvation, there was ever a particular point where he went from unsaved to saved.

Thanks for any replies.

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The experience of salvation involves repentance, confession, forgiveness, justification, and sanctification.

Confession and repentance and asking for forgiveness is what we do (we recognize our sinful condition) ... forgiveness, justification, and sanctification is what God does when we come to Him with a sincere heart.

Can that happen in an instant? When we see the one thief crucified at the same time as Jesus ... it appears it can be instantaenous.

Only God knows the heart.

1 Kings 8:39

then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive and act and render to each according to all his ways, whose heart You know, for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men,

However, we always live in the position of choice .... we will mess up here and there .... so we need to examine the trend of our life .... are we moving towards God or away from Him? That is .... are we moving away from sin or towards it?

We are called to turn away from sin .... not live in it.

eleos1954 said:

We are called to turn away from sin .... not live in it.

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His will, not our own

Jesse Dornfeld said:

Is salvation always instantaneous? Or is it sometimes a process?

For example, Abdu Murry had a long process before he left Islam and converted to Christianity.

I wonder if, even in the process of Abdu's salvation, there was ever a particular point where he went from unsaved to saved.

Thanks for any replies.

Click to expand...

The Bible speaks about our salvation in the past, present, and future tenses, so we have been saved from the penalty of our sin (Ephesians 2:5), we are being saved from continuing to live in sin (Philippians 2:12), and we will be saved from God's wrath on the day of the Lord (Romans 5:9), so there is an aspect of our salvation that is instantaneous and there is an aspect of our salvation that is an ingoing process in the present. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so God graciously teaching us how to do these works is itself part of the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works, which is in regard to how we are being saved in the present. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so it is describing past and present aspects of our salvation.