Honest Question

[JM]

What do Messianic Jews/Christians believe a judaizer is? I always thought it was a Christian who mixed the Law and Grace and the internet had the following: http://www.brainydictionary.com/words/ju/judaizer181806.html My next question is, are Messianic Jews judaizers?

Thanks for allowing me to ask.

SP

 

[visionary]

Yeshua is honored to be among this group...and so are the apostles

 

[Henaynei]

What do Messianic Jews/Christians believe a judaizer is? I always thought it was a Christian who mixed the Law and Grace and the internet had the following: http://www.brainydictionary.com/words/ju/judaizer181806.html

Judaize: the doctrine that non-Jews MUST obey Torah in order to be saved and have a relationship with HaShem - a false doctrine.

My next question is, are Messianic Jews judaizers?

Thanks for allowing me to ask.

SP

As I posted in another thread:

By and large MJs as a whole are more accutely aware than most other believers that [righteous] works (such as obedience to Torah) are the natural out flow of love of G-d as expressed in obedience ("if you love Me obey My commandments") and NOT a tool (or means) of salvation. We obey because we ARE saved, not to acquire salvation

 

[simchat_torah]

A Judiazer says that you must convert to Judaism to be saved. It has nothing to do with the type of spiritual walk one pursues (ie: following particular laws vs. not following particular laws).

I always thought it was a Christian who mixed the Law and Grace

Ironically, the "new testament" has more commands/laws contained in it than the "old testament". How does this play out in the above quote?

-yafet

 

[P_G]

I think a Judiazer would tell you that you are saved in the obeying of the Law by your righteous acts are you saved.

A messianic would say it is by the atoning work of Y'shua on the cross that you are saved. But that in the keeping of the law are you blessed!

We as Christians rail against a Judiazer one who we percieve as putting on the "yoke" of the law. But I ask what of the law shall we NOT keep? Is it up to us to decide what of G-ds Holy word is good to keep and what is not?

Is it ok to break the sabbath day by working on it but no ok to commit adultery?
Why?

There is a way which seems right to a man but it leads to destruction!


Blessings

Pastor George

 

[Henaynei]

This a well respected voice in the Messianic Community
WHO WERE THE JUDAIZERS?

http://www.gatesofeden.org/whojude.html

 

[theseed]

I'm confused. Pastor George, why don't you tell us in the Baptist/Anabaptist forum that having church on the first day of the week will lead to our destruction, but you do here?

 

[P_G]

I'm confused. Pastor George, why don't you tell us in the Baptist/Anabaptist forum that having church on the first day of the week will lead to our destruction, but you do here?

Well I am glad you asked that even though this is going to turn into a massive Halachal discussion.

I take what the command says very serriously

8. "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
9. Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
10. but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates.
11. For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.


Also

12. "Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the LORD your God has commanded you.
13. Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
14. but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor the alien within your gates, so that your manservant and maidservant may rest, as you do.



So what I see here is that we are to work 6 days and observe a Sabbath on the 7th day. What I have never seen is G-d naming each day of the week and pointing to the specific day.

Traditionally the sabbath is from Sundown Friday till Sundown Saturday and if we hold to tradition then that should be our Sabbath. The 'sabbath day' was 'officially' changed by the church of Rome durring the reign of Constantine. This is freely admited in the Converts Guide to Catholic Cathechism. Be this right or wrong what has ensuing happened made our western culture view Monday as the first day of the week with Sunday as the 7th day of the week.

OK what does this mean? What it means is you are still supposed to observe a sabbath of rest. And virtually no Christian does this on Saturday or on Sunday or really any other day of the week.

Case in point how many people run out of a Sunday service to go to McDonalds? Or to the supermarket or off to a Job that they "must do"

Please spare me the argument of what if I am a nurse or a policeman becuase typically the people trying that argument are not any of those things but rather the Manager at a convience store.

And for my bretheren that want to celebrate on Saturday Baruch Ha'Shem! But don't let me see you post on CF durring the sabbath! Ouch! It's ok cause everyone else does it right?


Six days shall you labor and on the seventh day shall you rest. You want to argue on the name of the day I will tell you that I will not argue the point I declare you the winner right now.

So long as on that day you are really keeping a sabbath.

In my house we do no work on Sunday, spend no money, don't turn on computers. We pray, we sing we praise YHVH!

So there are some veiws on it Seed and I will be happy to say the same thing in Bap/Ana. any day of the week. Umm Except on my sabbath day I will be resting then!

Next Up
Covetousness!



Blessings

PG

 

[P_G]

Oh one more thing

Nehemiah Center meets on Erev Shabbat not on Sunday and is broadcast over the internet!


PG

 

[Sapper41]

Nehemiah Center meets on Erev Shabbat not on Sunday and is broadcast over the internet!

Doesn't Erev Shabbat mean Sabbath Evening?

 

[P_G]

Doesn't Erev Shabbat mean Sabbath Evening?

Yes we meet Friday evening the eve of the Shabbat or the night of the Shabbat

PG

 

[theseed]

The 'sabbath day' was 'officially' changed by the church of Rome durring the reign of Constantine

Correct.

OK what does this mean? What it means is you are still supposed to observe a sabbath of rest. And virtually no Christian does this on Saturday or on Sunday or really any other day of the week.

Correct.

Six days shall you labor and on the seventh day shall you rest. You want to argue on the name of the day I will tell you that I will not argue the point I declare you the winner right now.

Ok, I agree with you here. But I have been told by other MJ's that I was being unlawful, pagan, and a sinner (not explicitly) because I do not observe the shabat on Friday/Saturday.

And it just occured to me, that if we insist that it only be on Friday night/Sat. morn., then that leaves no space to care for the mentally ill or the mentally retarded.

You see, I work with mentally ill people, and they require 24/7 supervision.

And if someone insist that the Sabbath be on a certian day of the week, then they break the law, because they don't love thier neighbor. This is kinda like when Christ healed someone on the Sabbath.

But, that's my view.

Thank you for clearing things up.

 

[theseed]

Oh one more thing

Nehemiah Center meets on Erev Shabbat not on Sunday and is broadcast over the internet!


PG

Can you PM me the link?

 

[JewishHeart]

Might I add that Judaizing is also concentrating on the letter of the law rather than the Spirit...Hezekiah as prime example of a non-Judaizer. I agree it is also putting the law as salvation and not as a blessing of obedience.

 

[P_G]

Correct.



Correct.


Ok, I agree with you here. But I have been told by other MJ's that I was being unlawful, pagan, and a sinner (not explicitly) because I do not observe the shabat on Friday/Saturday.

And it just occured to me, that if we insist that it only be on Friday night/Sat. morn., then that leaves no space to care for the mentally ill or the mentally retarded.

You see, I work with mentally ill people, and they require 24/7 supervision.

And if someone insist that the Sabbath be on a certian day of the week, then they break the law, because they don't love thier neighbor. This is kinda like when Christ healed someone on the Sabbath.

But, that's my view.

Thank you for clearing things up.

First my brother let me say that what I am saying is going to be in big dispute with my messianic Bretheren and I know that. But I am equally convinced from what I read both in Torah and in the Brit Chadassa that G-d is going to look much more at the heart than he is at the letter.

Having said that Brother may I suggest this you set a Sabbath day that is not movable. Do it because you want to honor the L-rd. Not for fear of retribution by his divine will but because you love him.

Yes caring for the Mentally retarded is covered well under the provision of care for the ill (saving a life is permitted on the sabbath) But I am sure that you can and SHOULD set one day aside as unto the L-rd. Tell your boss look I can't work on Wednesday or what ever and on that day YOU honor Ha'Shem.

It is a discipline to be sure. But the blessings will flow of that I am equally sure. And so much the better if you make it to be Saturday (Sabados the sabbath)


By the way I just got an E-mail from a person claiming to be a strict Sabbath keeping Jew. On Saturday. They said they were tired. I wonder how tired they would be if they would take and SHUT THE COMPUTER OFF ON THE SABBATH?


Blessings

PG

 

[theseed]

Thank you for clearing that up Pastor George.

 

[Angelajt]

I would really like to be able to share my faith with some new Jewish friends I have. I have been studying alot on the faith and realize we as Chrisitans know very little. This one lady that I am refering to is Jewish and goes to synagog, but her husband is baptist. What is a good way of bringing up faith and differences in faith without offending? Or better yet, what can I say because I speak alot about my faith?

 

[sojeru]

Greetings "Jewish heart",

you said:
Might I add that judaizing is also concentrating on the letter of the law rather than the Spirit.

In no offense, but this is when I must say that I agree with you for the first time I have read your posts and articles!

This is exactly what Judaizing is...
However, KNOW that when Messiah comes- the strict letter will be issued and applied. However, for our days- this CANNOT BE DONE!
and so, to Judaize (use strict exactness of the Torah as a pharisee [beth shammai]) is not actually wrong- but very much frowned upon and measure for measure will we be judged if we Judaize and our reward in the world to come WILL infact be much less!
But, i must say, blessed is the man that can stand up to G-D's strict Justice and not need to count on Hesed and Rachamim anymore as mostly all of us currently need too.

shalom u'brachot
Antonio

 

[Jasmine-FL]

Pastor George,
Didn't God appoint the right Sabbath day when He rested from creating the universe?
Once I attended an SDA workshop on the Sabbath and remember them saying that the day does matter. I don't mean to get into a big discussion or anything like that but I'm genuinely confused.

In Christ's love,
~J~

 

[debi b]

There is a line in this song I think is interesting.

AMERICA THE BEAUTIFUL

O beautiful for spacious skies,
For amber waves of grain
For purple mountain majesty
Above the fruited plain

America! America!
God shed His grace on thee,
And crown thy good with brotherhood
From sea to shining sea.
O beautiful for pilgrim feet
Whose stern impassiond stress
A thoroughfare for freedom beat
Across the wilderness

America! America!
God mend thine every flaw,
Confirm thy soul in self control
Thy liberty in law

What a concept. Why have we come to understand that "liberty" is freedom from Adonai's law? We don't believe that as American citizens we are free from the laws of our country.