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Homosexuals in the Military

texastig

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Remember, God loves us but not our sin.

Homosexuals in the Military
David Barton

Preface: There was a series of events that led to the need for this historical analysis. Below is a general chronology providing context. There were, no doubt, numerous other events that occurred-- newspaper articles, magazine articles, government reports, meetings, etc. However, these key events will preface the analysis:

January 20, 1993--William Jefferson Clinton assumes the Presidency, promising to end the historic ban on homosexuals serving in America's Armed Forces.

January 29, 1993--President Clinton issues the following memorandum to the Secretary of Defense, Les Aspin:

I hereby direct you to submit to me prior to July 15, 1993, a draft of an Executive Order ending discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation in determining who may serve in the Armed Forces of the United States.

June 2-21, 1993--survey entitled, "Congressional Survey of All Active-Duty Admirals and Generals Shows Overwhelming Opposition to Lifting Military Gay Ban." Ninety-seven and a half percent do not wish to have homosexuals serve in the military. Over ninety percent of the military's senior officers question "national security" if homosexuals are allowd to serve.

July 19, 1993--"Don't ask; don't tell" plan announced by the President. Under this plan, new recruits are not to be asked if they are homosexual. Homosexual "orientation" is allowed; homosexual conduct remains a reason for separation.

July 23, 1993--Senate Armed Services Committee votes to pass law supporting President Clinton's policies.

July 27, 1993--House Armed Services Committee offers similar legislation.

Court challenges started by the ACLU and others, and debate rages in the media.

Elected officials and others begin requesting an historical perspective on homosexuals in the military. David Barton prepares the following essay, supporting the contention that immoral conduct never has been allowed in America's Armed Forces.



In recent years, widespread discussions and hearings have been held concerning the issue of homosexuals serving in the United States military forces. This monograph will explore the issue via three questions:

1. Has homosexuality always been incompatible with military service?
2. Why should the military be concerned with a person's morality?
3. Why should homosexuality concern us as a society?

Has Homosexuality Always Been Incompatible With Military Service?

While the issue of homosexuals in the military has only recently become a point of great public controversy, it is not a new issue; it derives its roots from the time of the military's inception. George Washington, the nation's first Commander-in-Chief, held a strong opinion on this subject and gave a clear statement of his views on it in his general orders for March 14, 1778:

At a General Court Martial whereof Colo. Tupper was President (10th March 1778), Lieutt. Enslin of Colo. Malcom's Regiment [was] tried for attempting to commit sodomy, with John Monhort a soldier; Secondly, For Perjury in swearing to false accounts, [he was] found guilty of the charges exhibited against him, being breaches of 5th. Article 18th. Section of the Articles of War and [we] do sentence him to be dismiss'd [from] the service with infamy. His Excellency the Commander in Chief approves the sentence and with abhorrence and detestation of such infamous crimes orders Lieutt. Enslin to be drummed out of camp tomorrow morning by all the drummers and fifers in the Army never to return; The drummers and fifers [are] to attend on the Grand Parade at Guard mounting for that Purpose. 1

General Washington held a clear understanding of the rules for order and discipline, and as the original Commander-in-Chief, he was the first not only to forbid, but even to punish, homosexuals in the military.

An edict issued by the Continental Congress communicates the moral tone which lay at the base of Washington's actions:

The Commanders of . . . the thirteen United Colonies are strictly required to show in themselves a good example of honor and virtue to their officers and men and to be very vigilant in inspecting the behavior of all such as are under them, and to discountenance and suppress all dissolute, immoral, and disorderly practices, and also such as are contrary to the rules of discipline and obedience, and to correct those who are guilty of the same. 2

Noah Webster--a soldier during the Revolution and the author of the first American dictionary --defined the terms "dissolute" and "immoral" used by Congress:

Dissolute: Loose in behavior and morals; given to vice and dissipation; wanton; lewd; debauched; not under the restraints of law; as a dissolute man: dissolute company.
Immoral: Inconsistent with moral rectitude; contrary to the moral or Divine law. . . . Every action is immoral which contravenes any Divine precept or which is contrary to the duties which men owe to each other. 3

This meaning of the word "moral" versus "immoral" was understood throughout American society; the practice of sodomy was clearly adverse to and "contravene[d] Divine precept." The order to "suppress all dissolute, immoral, and disorderly practices . . . contrary to the rules of discipline and obedience" was extended throughout all branches of the American military, both the Army and the Navy. 4

It can be safely said that the attitude of the Founders on the subject of homosexuality was precisely that given by William Blackstone in his Commentaries on the Laws--the basis of legal jurisprudence in America and heartily endorsed by numbers of significant Founders. 5 In addressing sodomy (homosexuality), he found the subject so reprehensible that he was ashamed even to discuss it. Nonetheless, he noted:

What has been here observed . . . [the fact that the punishment fit the crime] ought to be the more clear in proportion as the crime is the more detestable, may be applied to another offence of a still deeper malignity; the infamous crime against nature committed either with man or beast. A crime which ought to be strictly and impartially proved and then as strictly and impartially punished. . . .
I will not act so disagreeable part to my readers as well as myself as to dwell any longer upon a subject the very mention of which is a disgrace to human nature [sodomy]. It will be more eligible to imitate in this respect the delicacy of our English law which treats it in its very indictments as a crime not fit to be named; "peccatum illud horribile, inter christianos non nominandum" (that horrible crime not to be named among Christians). A taciturnity observed likewise by the edict of Constantius and Constans: "ubi scelus est id, quod non proficit scire, jubemus insurgere leges, armari jura gladio ultore, ut exquisitis poenis subdantur infames, qui sunt, vel qui futuri sunt, rei" (where that crime is found, which is unfit even to know, we command the law to arise armed with an avenging sword that the infamous men who are, or shall in future be guilty of it, may undergo the most severe punishments). 6

Because of the nature of the crime, the penalties for the act of sodomy were often severe. For example, Thomas Jefferson indicated that in his home state of Virginia, "dismemberment" of the offensive organ was the penalty for sodomy. 7 In fact, Jefferson himself authored a bill penalizing sodomy by castration. 8 The laws of the other states showed similar or even more severe penalties:

That the detestable and abominable vice of buggery [sodomy] . . . shall be from henceforth adjudged felony . . . and that every person being thereof convicted by verdict, confession, or outlawry [unlawful flight to avoid prosecution], shall be hanged by the neck until he or she shall be dead. 9 NEW YORK

That if any man shall lie with mankind as he lieth with womankind, both of them have committed abomination; they both shall be put to death. 10 CONNECTICUT

Sodomy . . . shall be punished by imprisonment at hard labour in the penitentiary during the natural life or lives of the person or persons convicted of th[is] detestable crime. 11 GEORGIA

That if any man shall commit the crime against nature with a man or male child . . . every such offender, being duly convicted thereof in the Supreme Judicial Court, shall be punished by solitary imprisonment for such term not exceeding one year and by confinement afterwards to hard labor for such term not exceeding ten years. 12 MAINE

That if any person or persons shall commit sodomy . . . he or they so offending or committing any of the said crimes within this province, their counsellors, aiders, comforters, and abettors, being convicted thereof as above said, shall suffer as felons. 13 [And] shall forfeit to the Commonwealth all and singular the lands and tenements, goods and chattels, whereof he or she was seized or possessed at the time . . . at the discretion of the court passing the sentence, not exceeding ten years, in the public gaol or house of correction of the county or city in which the offence shall have been committed and be kept at such labor. 14 PENNSYLVANIA

[T]he detestable and abominable vice of buggery [sodomy] . . . be from henceforth adjudged felony . . . and that the offenders being hereof convicted by verdict, confession, or outlawry [unlawful flight to avoid prosecution], shall suffer such pains of death and losses and penalties of their goods. 15 SOUTH CAROLINA

That if any man lieth with mankind as he lieth with a woman, they both shall suffer death. 16 VERMONT

Based on the statutes, legal commentaries, and the writings of prominent military leaders, it is clear that any idea of homosexuals serving in the military was considered with repugnance; this is incontrovertible, with no room for differing interpretations. 17 The thought of lifting this proscription is a modern phenomenon, and would have brought disbelief, disdain, and condemnation from those who established our Armed Forces.

Why Should the Military Be Concerned With a Person's Morality?

Concern for the character and morality of military personnel has a strong historical basis. Our Founding Fathers recognized the importance of pure morals in our free society, and that philosophy extended to our military.

Before considering the importance of morality to the military, first consider some general statements on the importance of morality by those responsible for originally creating the rules that have stirred so much controversy of late in the debate over homosexuals in the military. John Adams (the founder of the Navy), on October 13, 1798, while serving as President of the United States and Commander-in-Chief, told the military:

We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. . . . Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. 18

Adams similarly explained:

Statesmen, my dear sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free constitution is pure virtue. 19

George Washington, the nation's first Commander-in-Chief, summarized the same truth in his "Farewell Address." Significantly, this address was also partially authored by John Jay (the author of America's first military discipline manual) and Alexander Hamilton (a General during the Revolution). These three military leaders emphasized the necessity of moral behavior, declaring:

Of all the dispositions and habits which leads to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity [happiness]. Let it simply be asked, "Where is the security for property, for reputation for life, if the sense of religious obligations desert . . . ?" And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle. 'Tis substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it [free government] can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric? 20

You can read the rest at:
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=101

Remember, I love you all and God loves you all but we don't like sin.
Thanks,
TT
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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I served honorably is thee United States Army and I take offense at your you insulting my service.

Here is another soldier that does also :

Gay Soldier Awarded Purple Heart in Iraq Speaks Out

stout.jpg
Robert Stout, a 23-year-old soldier recently awarded the Purple Heart, is the first known gay soldier wounded in Iraq to speak out publicly regarding the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy.
"I know a ton of gay men that would be more than willing to stay in the Army if they could just be open. But if we have to stay here and hide our lives all the time, it's just not worth it. We can't keep hiding the fact that there's gay people in the military and they aren't causing any harm," Stout told The Associated Press. "The old armchair thought that gay people destroy unit camaraderie and cohesion is just wrong. They said the same things when they tried to integrate African-Americans and women into the military."
Stout was injured while operating a machine gun on a Humvee. His scheduled discharge from the Army is May 31. But because he has spoken out now, he risks early discharge and jail time.
More power to him

So doesn't this General:

January 2, 2007, General John M. Shalikashvili, former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, supports gays and lesbians serving openly

Here is the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/opinion/02shalikashvili.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
 
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Apollo Celestio

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What does being open about your sexuality have to do with serving in the military? You become living weapons, weapons that shouldn't have emotions and feelings. (Or they wish you wouldn't.) I don't see why this is an issue, what effect does one's sexuality have on their ability to fight. Humans are so foolish sometimes.
 
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catlover

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What does being open about your sexuality have to do with serving in the military? You become living weapons, weapons that shouldn't have emotions and feelings. (Or they wish you wouldn't.) I don't see why this is an issue, what effect does one's sexuality have on their ability to fight. Humans are so foolish sometimes.



The ancient Greek armies encouraged homosexual sex between the men..the ideas was they would fight more aggressively for a lover.

I was in the national guard, yes, there were homosexuals. As you more than likely know, the regular army, reserves and national guard go through the same training.


BTW tt what branch of the service did you serve in?
 
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Fantine

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Now that women soldiers serve side by side with male soldiers in combat zones such as Iraq, there is equal opportunity for heterosexuals, gays, and lesbians to form romantic relationships while in the military service in combat zones.

Because of this, there should be appropriate behavioral rules that apply to all romantic relationships in the military, and they should be enforced for gays and heterosexuals equally.

(I am not against relationships in the military--the behavioral rules I might see as appropriate would restrict PDA--public displays of affection--in a sensible manner, and, perhaps, restrict superior/subordinate relationships, and, of course, restrict sexual harassment of any kind.)

I am sure that gay soldiers have served courageously in many American wars--courageously but not openly.

I also have strong concerns that, should a draft be instituted, claiming homosexuality or bisexuality would be a very easy way to get a deferment. How many young people who really didn't want to serve would have no compunction against having a one-night gay stand, complete with pictures, if it meant avoiding the draft? Particularly if the war was unpopular and not widely supported.
 
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texastig

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I served honorably is thee United States Army and I take offense at your you insulting my service.

Here is another soldier that does also :



So doesn't this General:



Here is the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/opinion/02shalikashvili.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
I thank you for your service. But I'm just posting what others talked about and have done.
Don't be mad at me, be mad at Founding Fathers.
Then you have to think, why did the Founding Fathers believe that homosexual behavior was wrong?
Thanks,
TT
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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I thank you for your service. But I'm just posting what others talked about and have done.
Don't be mad at me, be mad at Founding Fathers.
Then you have to think, why did the Founding Fathers believe that homosexual behavior was wrong?
Thanks,
TT

Here is a news flash, the founding fathers are all dead. They also did not belive in giving a woman the right to vote and they used Black Americs as slaves. Do you still advocate slavery and denying Woman the right to vote ? :scratch:
 
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texastig

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The ancient Greek armies encouraged homosexual sex between the men..the ideas was they would fight more aggressively for a lover.

I was in the national guard, yes, there were homosexuals. As you more than likely know, the regular army, reserves and national guard go through the same training.


BTW tt what branch of the service did you serve in?
I served in the Army. I was instrumental in bringing down some homosexual soldiers in the Ft. Hood latrines. Let me tell you the story.
I was going to Central Texas College classes at Ft. Hood when I had to go to the public latrines. So I went to the latrine and sat down on the toilet. I was looking around and on the walls of the stall there were homosexual soldiers leaving messages like this: "Be here tonight on this date and time for a good time." The words were a little more explicit than that.
I really found it disgusting. I couldn't go to the bathroom in peace.
So, I called CID and told them about it and they setup cameras in the latrine and caught many soldiers. They were kicked out. They ranged from Privates to Captains and some were married.
Thanks,
TT
 
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texastig

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Here is a news flash, the founding fathers are all dead. They also did not belive in giving a woman the right to vote and they used Black Americs as slaves. Do you still advocate slavery and denying Woman the right to vote ? :scratch:
The people who had voting rights were those who owned land back then. The person who owned the land was the one working all the time to provide for the family. The person working was the man and the woman stayed at home to take care of the family.
From: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-wall/wal-g003.html
One of the most frequent tactics employed to discredit America's Founding Fathers is to say that the Founding Fathers were all pro-slavery racists and hypocrites. Therefore, why should we care what their views were on any subject? African-American professor Walter Williams wisely explained the use of this tactic in these words:

“Politicians, news media, college professors and leftists of other stripes are selling us lies and propaganda. To lay the groundwork for their increasingly successful attack on our Constitution, they must demean and criticize its authors. As Senator Joe Biden demonstrated during the Clarence Thomas hearings, the framers' ideas about natural law must be trivialized or they must be seen as racists.”

These people paint a false picture of the Founding Fathers and the issue of slavery. The historical fact is that slavery was not the product of, nor was it an evil introduced by the Founders; slavery was introduced in America nearly two centuries before the Founders. In fact, Supreme Court Chief Justice John Jay noted that there had been few serious efforts to dismantle the institution of slavery prior to the Founding Fathers.

The Revolution was a turning point in the national attitude against slavery - and it was the Founders who contributed greatly to that change. In fact, one of the reasons given by Thomas Jefferson for the separation from Great Britain was a desire to rid America of the evil of slavery imposed on them by the British.

Benjamin Franklin explained that this separation from Britain was necessary since every attempt among the Colonies to end slavery had been thwarted or reversed by the British Crown. In fact, in the years following America's separation from Great Britain, many of the Founding Fathers who had owned slaves released them (e.g., John Dickinson, Ceasar Rodney, William Livingston, George Washington, George Wythe, John Randolph, and others).

It is true, however, that not all of the Founders from the South opposed slavery. According to the testimony of Thomas Jefferson, John Rutledge, and James Madison, those from North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia favored slavery.

Nevertheless, despite the support in those states for slavery, the clear majority of the Founders was opposed to this evil--and their support went beyond words.

For example, in 1774, Benjamin Franklin and Benjamin Rush founded America's first antislavery society; John Jay was president of a similar society in New York. When Constitution signer William Livingston heard of the New York society, he, as Governor of New Jersey, wrote them, offering:

“I would most ardently wish to become a member of it [the society in New York] and... I can safely promise them that neither my tongue, nor my pen, nor purse shall be wanting to promote the abolition of what to me appears so inconsistent with humanity and Christianity... May the great and the equal Father of the human race, who has expressly declared His abhorrence of oppression, and that He is no respecter of persons, succeed a design so laudably calculated to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke.”

Other prominent Founding Fathers who were members of societies for ending slavery included Richard Bassett, James Madison, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, and many more.

In fact, based in part on the efforts of these Founders, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island did so in 1784; New Hampshire in 1792; Vermont in 1793; New York in 1799; and New Jersey in 1804. Furthermore, the reason that the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa all prohibited slavery was a federal act authored by Rufus King (signer of the Constitution) and signed into law by President George Washington which prohibited slavery in those territories.

It is not surprising that Washington would sign such a law, for it was he who had declared:

“I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery].”
-George Washington

Notice a few additional examples of the Founder's strong antislavery sentiments:

"[M]y opinion against it [slavery] has always been known... [N]ever in my life did I own a slave."
-John Adams, Signer of the Declaration of Independence and U.S. President. The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States (Boston: Little, Brown, and Company, 1854), vol IX pp. 92-93. In a letter to George Churchman and Jacob Lindley on January 24, 1801.

"[W]hy keep alive the question of slavery? It is admitted by all to be a great evil."
-Charles Carroll, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Kate Mason Rowland, Life and Correspondence of Charles Carroll of Carrollton (New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1898), Vol. II, pg. 231.

"As Congress is now to legislate for our extensive territory lately acquired, I pray to Heaven that they ...[c]urse not the inhabitants of those regions, and of the United States in general, with a permission to introduce bondage [slavery]."
-John Dickinson, Signer of the Constitution and Governor of Pennsylvania. Charles J. Stille, The Life and Times of John Dickinson (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott Company, 1898) p. 324.

"That men should pray and fight for their own freedom and yet keep others in slavery is certainly acting a very inconsistent as well as unjust and perhaps impious part."
-John Jay, President of Continental Congress, Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, and Governor of New York. Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1891), Vol. III, pp. 168-169. In a letter to Dr. Richard Price on Sep. 27, 1785.

"Christianity, by introducing into Europe the truest principles of humanity, universal benevolence, and brotherly love, had happily abolished civil slavery. Let us who profess the same religion practice its precepts... by agreeing to this duty."
-Richard Henry Lee, President of Continental Congress and Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Memoir of the Life of Richard Henry Lee and His Correspondence With the Most Distinguised Men in America and Europe (Philadelphia: H.C. Carey and I. Lea, 1825), Vol. I, pp. 17-19. The first speech of Richard Henry Lee in the House of Burgesses.

"t ought to be considered that national crimes can only be and frequently are punished in this world by national punishments; and that the continuance of the slave trade, and thus giving it a national sanction and encouragement, ought to be considered as justly exposing us to the displeasure and vengeance of Him who is equally Lord of all and who views with equal eye the poor African slave and his American master."
-Luther Martin, Constitutional Convention Delegate. James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. III, pg. 211.

"Domestic slavery is repugnant to the principles of Christianity... It is rebellion against the authority of a common Father. It is a practical denial of the extent and efficacy of the death of a common Savior. It is an usurpation of the prerogative of the great Sovereign of the universe who has solemnly claimed an exclusive property in the souls of men."
-Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Minutes of the Proceedings of a Convention of Delegates From the Abolition Societies Established in Different Parts of the United States, Assembled at Philadelphia, on the First Day of January, One Thousand Seven Hundred and Ninety-Four... (Philadelphia: Zachariah Poulson, 1794), p. 24. "To the Citizens of the United States."

"Slavery, or an absolute and unlimited power in the master over life and fortune of the slave, is unauthorized by the common law... The reasons which we sometimes see assigned for the origin and the continuance of slavery appear, when examined to the bottom, to be built upon a false foundation. In the enjoyment of their persons and of their property, the common law protects all."
-James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution and U.S. Supreme Court Justice. James Wilson, The Works of James Wilson, Robert Green McCloskey, editor (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1967), Vol. II, pg. 605.

"It is certainly unlawful to make inroads upon others...and take away their liberty by no better right than superior force."
-John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), p. 81, "Lectures on Moral Philosophy."

Numerous similar quotes could be cited.

Yet despite the progress made by many of the Founders to end the institution of slavery and to recognize in practice that "all men are created equal," it is currently charged that in the Constitution, the Founders considered a black to be only three-fifths of a person. This charge is yet another misportrayal of the truth.

The records of the Constitutional Convention make clear that the three-fifths clause was actually an antislavery provision. As Professor Walter Williams explains:

"It was slavery's opponents who succeeded in restricting the political power of the South by allowing them to count only three-fifths of their slave population in determining the number of congressional representatives. The three-fifths of a vote provision applied only to slaves, not to free blacks in either the North or South." (emphasis added)

The three-fifths clause was not a measurement of human worth; it was an attempt to reduce the number of pro-slavery proponents in Congress. By including only three-fifths of the total numbers of slaves into the congressional calculations, Southern states were actually being denied additional pro-slavery representatives in Congress.

While there were a few Founding Fathers who were pro-slavery, the truth is that it was the Founders who were responsible for planting and nurturing the first seeds for the recognition of black equality and for the eventual end of slavery. This is a fact made clear by Richard Allen.

Pennsylvania Flag. Illustration copyrighted. Allen had been a slave in Pennsylvania, but was freed after he converted his master to Christianity. A close friend of Benjamin Rush and several other Founding Fathers, he went on to become the founder of the A.M.E. Church in America. In an early address entitled "To the People of Color," Allen reminded them:

"Many of the white people [who] have been instruments in the hands of God for our good, even such as have held us in captivity, are now pleading our cause with earnestness and zeal."
-Richard Allen

Thanks,
TT
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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I thank you for your service. But I'm just posting what others talked about and have done.
Don't be mad at me, be mad at Founding Fathers.
Then you have to think, why did the Founding Fathers believe that homosexual behavior was wrong?
Thanks,
TT


How could you both thank me for my Military service and yet want to deny me the right to serve ? It appears to be incongruous with your intial statements ?

If the top general of the United States comments that he found no problems with Gay Men and Woman serving, then that should be good enough.
 
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texastig

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TT could you also share with us your Military background ? I served 3 years in the United States Army and I was discharged Honorably after fulfilling my service obligation.

I was in the Army for 10 years. I worked on the armament/electrical systems of the Cobra and Apache helicopters.
I served in Germany and came back to the states to Ft. Hood. I got out of the Army and was discharge honorably.
See this post on what I did to stop some homosexual soldiers.
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41520880&postcount=11
Thanks,
TT
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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The people who had voting rights were those who owned land back then. The person who owned the land was the one working all the time to provide for the family. The person working was the man and the woman stayed at home to take care of the family.
From: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-wall/wal-g003.html
One of the most frequent tactics employed to discredit America's Founding Fathers is to say that the Founding Fathers were all pro-slavery racists and hypocrites. Therefore, why should we care what their views were on any subject? African-American professor Walter Williams wisely explained the use of this tactic in these words:

“Politicians, news media, college professors and leftists of other stripes are selling us lies and propaganda. To lay the groundwork for their increasingly successful attack on our Constitution, they must demean and criticize its authors. As Senator Joe Biden demonstrated during the Clarence Thomas hearings, the framers' ideas about natural law must be trivialized or they must be seen as racists.”

These people paint a false picture of the Founding Fathers and the issue of slavery. The historical fact is that slavery was not the product of, nor was it an evil introduced by the Founders; slavery was introduced in America nearly two centuries before the Founders. In fact, Supreme Court Chief Justice John Jay noted that there had been few serious efforts to dismantle the institution of slavery prior to the Founding Fathers.

The Revolution was a turning point in the national attitude against slavery - and it was the Founders who contributed greatly to that change. In fact, one of the reasons given by Thomas Jefferson for the separation from Great Britain was a desire to rid America of the evil of slavery imposed on them by the British.

Benjamin Franklin explained that this separation from Britain was necessary since every attempt among the Colonies to end slavery had been thwarted or reversed by the British Crown. In fact, in the years following America's separation from Great Britain, many of the Founding Fathers who had owned slaves released them (e.g., John Dickinson, Ceasar Rodney, William Livingston, George Washington, George Wythe, John Randolph, and others).

It is true, however, that not all of the Founders from the South opposed slavery. According to the testimony of Thomas Jefferson, John Rutledge, and James Madison, those from North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia favored slavery.

Nevertheless, despite the support in those states for slavery, the clear majority of the Founders was opposed to this evil--and their support went beyond words.

For example, in 1774, Benjamin Franklin and Benjamin Rush founded America's first antislavery society; John Jay was president of a similar society in New York. When Constitution signer William Livingston heard of the New York society, he, as Governor of New Jersey, wrote them, offering:

“I would most ardently wish to become a member of it [the society in New York] and... I can safely promise them that neither my tongue, nor my pen, nor purse shall be wanting to promote the abolition of what to me appears so inconsistent with humanity and Christianity... May the great and the equal Father of the human race, who has expressly declared His abhorrence of oppression, and that He is no respecter of persons, succeed a design so laudably calculated to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke.”

Other prominent Founding Fathers who were members of societies for ending slavery included Richard Bassett, James Madison, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, and many more.

In fact, based in part on the efforts of these Founders, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts abolished slavery in 1780; Connecticut and Rhode Island did so in 1784; New Hampshire in 1792; Vermont in 1793; New York in 1799; and New Jersey in 1804. Furthermore, the reason that the states of Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa all prohibited slavery was a federal act authored by Rufus King (signer of the Constitution) and signed into law by President George Washington which prohibited slavery in those territories.

It is not surprising that Washington would sign such a law, for it was he who had declared:

“I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery].”
-George Washington

Notice a few additional examples of the Founder's strong antislavery sentiments:

"[M]y opinion against it [slavery] has always been known... [N]ever in my life did I own a slave."
-John Adams, Signer of the Declaration of Independence and U.S. President. The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States (Boston: Little, Brown, and Company, 1854), vol IX pp. 92-93. In a letter to George Churchman and Jacob Lindley on January 24, 1801.

"[W]hy keep alive the question of slavery? It is admitted by all to be a great evil."
-Charles Carroll, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Kate Mason Rowland, Life and Correspondence of Charles Carroll of Carrollton (New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1898), Vol. II, pg. 231.

"As Congress is now to legislate for our extensive territory lately acquired, I pray to Heaven that they ...[c]urse not the inhabitants of those regions, and of the United States in general, with a permission to introduce bondage [slavery]."
-John Dickinson, Signer of the Constitution and Governor of Pennsylvania. Charles J. Stille, The Life and Times of John Dickinson (Philadelphia: J.B. Lippincott Company, 1898) p. 324.

"That men should pray and fight for their own freedom and yet keep others in slavery is certainly acting a very inconsistent as well as unjust and perhaps impious part."
-John Jay, President of Continental Congress, Chief-Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, and Governor of New York. Correspondence and Public Papers of John Jay, Henry P. Johnston, editor (New York and London: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1891), Vol. III, pp. 168-169. In a letter to Dr. Richard Price on Sep. 27, 1785.

"Christianity, by introducing into Europe the truest principles of humanity, universal benevolence, and brotherly love, had happily abolished civil slavery. Let us who profess the same religion practice its precepts... by agreeing to this duty."
-Richard Henry Lee, President of Continental Congress and Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Memoir of the Life of Richard Henry Lee and His Correspondence With the Most Distinguised Men in America and Europe (Philadelphia: H.C. Carey and I. Lea, 1825), Vol. I, pp. 17-19. The first speech of Richard Henry Lee in the House of Burgesses.

"t ought to be considered that national crimes can only be and frequently are punished in this world by national punishments; and that the continuance of the slave trade, and thus giving it a national sanction and encouragement, ought to be considered as justly exposing us to the displeasure and vengeance of Him who is equally Lord of all and who views with equal eye the poor African slave and his American master."
-Luther Martin, Constitutional Convention Delegate. James Madison, The Records of the Federal Convention, Max Farrand, editor (New Haven: Yale University Press, 1911), Vol. III, pg. 211.

"Domestic slavery is repugnant to the principles of Christianity... It is rebellion against the authority of a common Father. It is a practical denial of the extent and efficacy of the death of a common Savior. It is an usurpation of the prerogative of the great Sovereign of the universe who has solemnly claimed an exclusive property in the souls of men."
-Benjamin Rush, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. Minutes of the Proceedings of a Convention of Delegates From the Abolition Societies Established in Different Parts of the United States, Assembled at Philadelphia, on the First Day of January, One Thousand Seven Hundred and Ninety-Four... (Philadelphia: Zachariah Poulson, 1794), p. 24. "To the Citizens of the United States."

"Slavery, or an absolute and unlimited power in the master over life and fortune of the slave, is unauthorized by the common law... The reasons which we sometimes see assigned for the origin and the continuance of slavery appear, when examined to the bottom, to be built upon a false foundation. In the enjoyment of their persons and of their property, the common law protects all."
-James Wilson, Signer of the Constitution and U.S. Supreme Court Justice. James Wilson, The Works of James Wilson, Robert Green McCloskey, editor (Cambridge, MA: Harvard University Press, 1967), Vol. II, pg. 605.

"It is certainly unlawful to make inroads upon others...and take away their liberty by no better right than superior force."
-John Witherspoon, Signer of the Declaration of Independence. The Works of John Witherspoon (Edinburgh: J. Ogle, 1815), p. 81, "Lectures on Moral Philosophy."

Numerous similar quotes could be cited.

Yet despite the progress made by many of the Founders to end the institution of slavery and to recognize in practice that "all men are created equal," it is currently charged that in the Constitution, the Founders considered a black to be only three-fifths of a person. This charge is yet another misportrayal of the truth.

The records of the Constitutional Convention make clear that the three-fifths clause was actually an antislavery provision. As Professor Walter Williams explains:

"It was slavery's opponents who succeeded in restricting the political power of the South by allowing them to count only three-fifths of their slave population in determining the number of congressional representatives. The three-fifths of a vote provision applied only to slaves, not to free blacks in either the North or South." (emphasis added)

The three-fifths clause was not a measurement of human worth; it was an attempt to reduce the number of pro-slavery proponents in Congress. By including only three-fifths of the total numbers of slaves into the congressional calculations, Southern states were actually being denied additional pro-slavery representatives in Congress.

While there were a few Founding Fathers who were pro-slavery, the truth is that it was the Founders who were responsible for planting and nurturing the first seeds for the recognition of black equality and for the eventual end of slavery. This is a fact made clear by Richard Allen.

Pennsylvania Flag. Illustration copyrighted. Allen had been a slave in Pennsylvania, but was freed after he converted his master to Christianity. A close friend of Benjamin Rush and several other Founding Fathers, he went on to become the founder of the A.M.E. Church in America. In an early address entitled "To the People of Color," Allen reminded them:

"Many of the white people [who] have been instruments in the hands of God for our good, even such as have held us in captivity, are now pleading our cause with earnestness and zeal."
-Richard Allen

Thanks,
TT






by Samuel H. Sloan, 320 pp., published by Kiseido,
Thomas Jefferson had 187 slaves. We know that because he kept meticulous hand-written records, which we still have. On January 14, 1774, after he inherited slaves from first his mother and then his father-in-law, Thomas Jefferson wrote his inventory of 187 slaves. In his last inventory, taken 50 years later in 1824, Thomas Jefferson also had 187 slaves. Thomas Jefferson died on July 4, 1826 at the age of 83.

In October, 1802, while he was president, the story was published in the newspapers that Thomas Jefferson, whose wife had died in 1782, was keeping his wife's slave half-sister, Sally Hemings, as a concubine and was producing children from her. Jefferson, who lived for 44 years after the death of his wife and who never remarried, never denied the story, but he never admitted it either. Sally Hemings was at his bedside when he died. All five children of Sally Hemings were freed by Thomas Jefferson either before his death or in his will. Thomas Jefferson made provisions for Sally Hemings in his will. These were almost the only slaves which Thomas Jefferson ever freed.

So much for jefferson.
 
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texastig

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How could you both thank me for my Military service and yet want to deny me the right to serve ? It appears to be incongruous with your intial statements ?

If the top general of the United States comments that he found no problems with Gay Men and Woman serving, then that should be good enough.
Since you were in there that's why I'm thanking you.
I don't want to get rid of your right to serve.
I do want you to know that Christ can set you free
from homosexuality.
There were problems with homosexual troops. See my
post here:
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41520880&postcount=11
Thanks,
TT
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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I served in the Army. I was instrumental in bringing down some homosexual soldiers in the Ft. Hood latrines. Let me tell you the story.
I was going to Central Texas College classes at Ft. Hood when I had to go to the public latrines. So I went to the latrine and sat down on the toilet. I was looking around and on the walls of the stall there were homosexual soldiers leaving messages like this: "Be here tonight on this date and time for a good time." The words were a little more explicit than that.
I really found it disgusting. I couldn't go to the bathroom in peace.
So, I called CID and told them about it and they setup cameras in the latrine and caught many soldiers. They were kicked out. They ranged from Privates to Captains and some were married.
Thanks,
TT


Most of the debauchery I saw in the Army was with the soldiers cheating on their wives. it was rampant in the Army. The wives were also cheating. I heard and saw it on a daily basis. Should I have called CID and become a snitch ? No, people who snitched to CID were looked down upon.
 
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eastcoast_bsc

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Since you were in there that's why I'm thanking you.
I don't want to get rid of your right to serve.
I do want you to know that Christ can set you free
from homosexuality.
There were problems with homosexual troops. See my
post here:
http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41520880&postcount=11
Thanks,
TT

Now your being untruthful.In your previous posts, you infered that gays should not be allowed to serve in the Military.

As for bathroom graffiti. Please. Any Mens room in the world has the Ubiquitious, pornographic drawings, asundry telephone numbers and solicitations. I alsways found it odd, but it is what it is.
 
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texastig

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Now your being untruthful.In your previous posts, you infered that gays should not be allowed to serve in the Military.

As for bathroom graffiti. Please. Any Mens room in the world has the Ubiquitious, pornographic drawings, asundry telephone numbers and solicitations. I alsways found it odd, but it is what it is.
They did it in the open/public.
Thanks,
TT
 
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Diane_Windsor

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Here is a news flash, the founding fathers are all dead. They also did not belive in giving a woman the right to vote and they used Black Americs as slaves. Do you still advocate slavery and denying Woman the right to vote ? :scratch:

Red herring.

If the top general of the United States comments that he found no problems with Gay Men and Woman serving, then that should be good enough.

And? That is just one retired General's opinion, and he does not speak for all the Generals and Admirals in the United States Armed Forces today.

If you want to debate this topic then please use logic and reason to support your arguments.
 
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