Homosexuality

[Debbie]

I guess I'm the only one on this thread who understands 1Cor.5. is meant for today.
The law regarding what to eat was dissolved by Christ's death on the cross. They were not saved by keeping the law & eating or not eating once Christ died on the cross. (which He had in that verse).
That verse makes us a hypocrite in 2 ways: one if we have not dealt with our own sin before we judge our brother's sin, & 2: condoning every sin our church members make, also makes us hypocrites. What's winning souls? Maybe this should be a new thread.
Catchup, I see much contradiction in your postings. First you say that a family was asked to leave your church because they hit the bars all the time. Then you say that anyone who does this is a hypocrite in another post.
OBviously none of you attend a catholic church, because catholics excommunicate sinners, such as those who commit adultery. A nondenominational Christian church does this also.
What type of sins do your congregation commit that is so obvious you think they would be asked to leave my church?
No I would not be asked to leave if my sin was printed in the newspaper. If all sin is equal, & we shouldnt ask the sinner to repent, then you shouldnt have any qualms about murderers & rapists being in charge of your youth group, or an active homosexual.
Ok by me if you folks don't want to be in my church. I dont want my church full of people who think you should ignore homosexual sins by your youth group leader, or any other member of the congregation. I'm glad my church believes in repenting.

 

[Debbie]

I started a new thread here "church members who commit sexual sin", so this can go back to original topic of a saved homosexual never/ever losing his salvation.

 

[Fisher of Men]

How can a homosexual be saved?If they are saved they are no longer homosexual,You can not be a homo and be saved.

 

[Debbie]

Amen. Just as a rapist is no longer a rapist once he is saved.

 

[Fisher of Men]

this is a big what if story..if you ask me,we are talking about no one inparticual.So there are no right anwsers now.To me its plain and simple if a homo accepts god and repents of his sins that great awsome..!!But if he keeps being a homo he is still sinning,and even thow hes struggleing and know what he is doing is a sin he still does it,he thinking god will forgive me as many times as i need,well i dont think that way..if he keeps comitting a homo act his sin will still be with him.

 

[LouisBooth]

"What I am saying is homosexuality isn't a sin so grave it is unforgiveable. Repentence doesn't happen overnight. Perhaps years or even decades.
"

My only problem with this is that any good church will point that out to ya as will the bible. Just like when a drunk knows the second he is saved, and most probalby before, he should stop drinking abusivly when he becomes a christian, the same for a homosexual. If they continue in it, that is unrepentance and they should seriously think about what they really believe.

 

[WayneH]

Though I never presume what a person means exactly - I think I know what Debbie is saying....... My church believes in the biblical approach to a CHRISTIAN continueing in Sin.. I do not think Debbie meant to ask any sinner to leave the church.. The Pastor should appraoch a person and discuss the sin - if the person continues - then the Pastor and another person ( Deacon - Whatever ) goes to that person and discusses the problem.......

If they persist in the sin- they should be asked to leave the Church.. to close the church door on Sinners means the CHURCH will be empty. We are all Sinners.. For all have Sinned........ I would think thats what Debbie is referring to.. I know our church has gone thru the first step a few times - going to this church for 15 years - I only saw once where they asked a member to not return because they persisted in a particular sin....

In whuch case - the Church is acting Biblically concerning this matter.. Hopefully no church closes their doors to sinners - My Wife had a great Uncle who got drunk every sat. night and showed up in church on sunday - someone asked how he could come ot church after getting drunk eveyr sat. night.. His reply - Churches are made for sinners......

 

[devoted daughter]

We all have "issues", habits, qualities that can be judged... Shouldn't we leave it to God? As far as I know, He's yet to appoint any of us "police of the universe". I know what the Bible says about homosexuality, but as a STRAIGHT Christian, I've yet to find ANY reference Christ makes to it. He said don't judge, and not to focus on the splinter in the eye of another. He does, however, focus on forgiveness and love. If forgiveness takes a "lifetime", as was referred to earlier, how can we account for the theif crucified with Him ?

 

[kdet]

We all have "issues", habits, qualities that can be judged... Shouldn't we leave it to God? As far as I know, He's yet to appoint any of us "police of the universe". I know what the Bible says about homosexuality, but as a STRAIGHT Christian, I've yet to find ANY reference Christ makes to it. He said don't judge, and not to focus on the splinter in the eye of another. He does, however, focus on forgiveness and love. If forgiveness takes a "lifetime", as was referred to earlier, how can we account for the theif crucified with Him ?

devoted daughter, good morning to you.
I'd like to say that calling sin, sin is not judging.
As far as your comment about Jesus not making references to homosexuality...let me remind you that Jesus didn't make references to incest,pedohiplia,rape or many other sexual sins but we know that those sins are still wrong in God's eyes, don't we?
Stephen Bennet has wrote a good commentary on this very subject.
Have a terrific Sunday!

How do I answer when someone states that Jesus never spoke out against homosexuality?



First, as Bible believing Christians, we believe Jesus Christ is God in the flesh - and believing so, Jesus' strongest stand on the issue of homosexuality had to be when Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. The Bible says God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah - and Jesus is part of the triune God. The Bible tells us Jesus was there from the beginning of creation (Genesis) - and He was responsible for creation as well. How much more clearer can Jesus have been in his 'speaking out against' homosexuality, than in the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah?



While it is true that the new testament does not document any statements of Jesus specifically condemning or condoning homosexuality - He didn't need to. It was very clear. However, John 21:25 states that "…there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one…even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written." Further, it should be considered that there is no record of Jesus’ statements on other sexual practices like rape, incest, inappropriate behavior with animals, etc. Yet it is unlikely that Jesus sanctioned these behaviors.



In addition, Jesus reinforced Old Testament law on sexual behavior in Matthew 5:27-30 and Mark 7:21-23. Old Testament law condemned the practice of homosexuality:



"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination." – Leviticus 18:22



"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them hath committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." – Leviticus 20:13



Clearly, Scripture does not equate homosexual and heterosexual relationships. In fact, perhaps the best indicator of Jesus’ stance on homosexuality is found in Matthew 19:4-6, where He restates the Genesis 2:21-25 account of God’s ordination of the marital union. This reference is consistent with all of Scripture, which esteems marriage, the union of one man and one woman in covenant union, above every other relationship, and maintains that all sexual activity must take place within its confines. Any other sex outside that of the grounds of heterosexual marriage is considered fornication, condemned by God.


http://www.sbministries.org/thebible.html

 

[Flynmonkie]

Hmm, that's funny, I always thought only GOD was suppossed to Judge other people

Homosexuality is wrong. It is a sin, and an "abomination" to GOD. I know that, but that doesn't mean they deserve to be judged by US! IE: imperfect humans. Didn't Jesus say himself "Whosoever is without sin may throw the first stone"
I think you are confused with willful sinning and being a sinner by nature.

Do you think homosexuals are un-loveable by GOD? God hates homosexuality, but loves the homosexual.
Yes they are, God hates sin and willful sinning is hated by God. Are you saying that all people are inhearently good?

Question: Do you think homo's enjoy, or rather, want to be gay? I don't think so, I honestly think that they are incapable of being sexually attracted to the opposite sex. It's people like you Debbie, that repel homo's from Christianity.

This is not a biblical statment. We have been commanded to cast away willful sinners. You are implying that we repel willful sinners from God by preaching what God commands us to, and maintaining the Christian conduct we are instructed in.

Of course they won't even remotely think about it becasue people like you already condemn them, before you even know them.
We do not condem them God does.

Homo's don't become straight unless influenced by Christ. How can they become influenced by Christ if Christians like YOU, debbie, won't treat them like a human? A homo won't become straight until he becomes saved and recieves the proper conviction by the Holy Ghost.

Treating them as human and recoginizing their sinful ways are two different things. Yet another person confused on being a good person and being a Good Christian. There is no such thing of being a good person only through God can we aquire this. And even then we all fall short of the glory of God.


Personally, if I was gay, I'd avoid Christaints, and possibly Christianity at all costs. Not because I would think Christianity is wrong, but because some people are so easily judgemental and, condemning.

We are commanded by God to do this.
Why would I want to associate myself with a group of people who so easily verbally and emotionally attack? Not all Christians are like this but some.

This has never been Jesus's way. This is the way of a certain group of Christians that somehow believe that we have to adapt an "in your face" attitude to preach the gospel. Not only are these actions not biblical, but they are in fact a form of "Heresy". Make sure you know the difference.

And it's those some who repel homo's from Christ, who by the way, is the only person who can convert them back to heterosexualism. I hope I"m getting my point across.

Make no mistake about it - they have the oppourtunity to choose. Do not let them fool you.

I watched the Matthew Sheppard Story on ABC not too long ago, and it changed my perspective. I'm not going to treat or talk to homo's like they are dogs. I'm going to talk to them like I would anyone else. I think they deserve compassion like any other human being.

Of course you should not do this...you are correct. This is not the way of Jesus. That would effectivly be judging in the wrong manner.

I'm sorry Debbie if you didn't mean that like I think you meant it. You just made it seem like you thought homo's were bad people, (I'm not talking spiritually)

They are bad people. We are all sinners and come short of the Glory of God.
and they you are better than them. If thats the case your not, because both homo's and hetaro's recieve the same savior.

Let me make this plain and clear, we cannot continue to willfully sin in this manner. However I believe that some may be saved that have misconceptions about the bibles teachings. Only God knows their hearts and we are not to question salvation. That being said, I believe that when someone obviously knows the bibles teaching, and willfully does not care. Or tries to obviously manipulate the scriptures. There is call for question if they ever really did know Christ. I would be concerned.

Remember what Jesus said... "Whosoever believith shall NOT perish..." I think we need to remember, a hetaro sexual without Jesus is alot worse off then a homo who is with Jesus.

Part of believeing is believeing that Gods word is accurate, don't forget that.

 

[LynneClomina]

as a former homosexual, i would like to comment...

i think "saved homosexual" is a misnomer....

if one is truly saved, there is fruit to reveal that.... if one is saved, you are CHANGED, you DIE TO YOURSELF, FORSAKE THE FORMER THINGS, and become a NEW CREATION. i dont mean to say that one is instantaneously delivered of homosexual tendencies. i mean to say that one will now identify themselves with CHRIST and not by their sinful desires. they will RENOUNCE that way of life and walk away from it. repent = turn around and walk around the other way. might they fall into sin from time to time? maybe, maybe not. some seem to have a harder struggle against it than others. i only fell once, shortly after becoming a christian. but that did not continue to designate me a homosexual. i ceased "being" a homosexual the day i gave control over my life - over EVERY aspect of my life - to Christ. i was, simply, a baby christian who fell into sin. but i sure didnt stay there. it was no longer the place for me, the life for me; i didnt belong there anymore.

to me, a "homosexual" is one who actively, and unrepentantly, practices homosexuality. a repentant christian who was formerly a homosexual would be better termed a "former" or "recovering" homosexual".

if there is not FRUIT from the tree, the tree is not a good tree, it is a bad tree. you shall know them by their fruits.

note: sometimes baby christians who dont understand why it's sin may be persistant in it - FOR A SHORT TIME. the fruit is already there, though, in the sense that they are SEEKING God's will, and desire to be obedient to God, and life a pure and holy life. but if they've had it drilled into them for time immemorial that you can be a practicing homosexual and be a "good" christian, then one can understand if they struggle against that for a while. time will tell.

 

[La Bonita Zorilla]

There is certainly no conflict at all between being homosexual and Christian in any form.

 

[Gabriel]

There is certainly no conflict at all between being homosexual and Christian in any form.

What??!! Then what are we to assume the meaning of the following passage from 1 Corinthians means?
9Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. 11And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Notice vs. 11 says that some of you were these things, but you have become washed and justified by the Spirit. So, looking elsewhere in 2 Corinthians we take note that once we are washed, we have become new. See:
15and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again. 16Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Now, this tells us that once we are washed we have become new and we no longer live according to the flesh (our desires) but we live according to the Spirit. I still don't see how anyone can continue to say that it is OK to do or be what the Bible states clearly is not acceptable. If you are saved you are a new creation and you are required by God to walk in Him, not the flesh. We are to conform to His will, not make excuses for ours. What does it mean to you to take up your cross daily? How are you being obedient by continuing in this behavior and worse, counseling others that it is OK? Here is what the book of Romans has to say about those who suppress truth:
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Do with it what you will.

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Good point Gabriel. Homosexual acts are clearly against God.

PS

As a side note, my Bible says "practicing homosexuals" in 1 Corinthians, which is an interesting contrast.

 

[Flynmonkie]

Good point Gabriel. Homosexual acts are clearly against God.

PS

As a side note, my Bible says "practicing homosexuals" in 1 Corinthians, which is an interesting contrast.

Hey! What version is that you are using. I had heard there is a new version that "justifies" this....just wondering?

 

[Dominus Fidelis]

Hey! What version is that you are using. I had heard there is a new version that "justifies" this....just wondering?

New American Bible

Its not a "new" Bible nor does it justify homosexual activity. Its just a distinction between being a homosexual and a homosexual that sins by having homosexual sex.

A homosexual is not sinful because a homosexual does not choose to be a homosexual. Many live chaste and fight against their fallen natures.

But this is according to the Catholic Church, so I don't want to debate or anything here. I was actually agreeing with Gabriel.

 

[Flynmonkie]

New American Bible

Its not a "new" Bible nor does it justify homosexual activity. Its just a distinction between being a homosexual and a homosexual that sins by having homosexual sex.

A homosexual is not sinful because a homosexual does not choose to be a homosexual. Many live chaste and fight against their fallen natures.

But this is according to the Catholic Church, so I don't want to debate or anything here. I was actually agreeing with Gabriel.

EEk No!! I am not debating....sorry if it came across that way! I had just read in another forum that apparently there IS a Bible out there that the way it has been translated it deemed homosexuality -OK! Woe to the man whom translated this - but I have been researching everywhere to figure out which version. By no means did I think you were justifying anything, If you noticed I agreed with you. I underlined your comment to Gabe! Thanks for the info!!

 

[Gabriel]

New American Bible

Its not a "new" Bible nor does it justify homosexual activity. Its just a distinction between being a homosexual and a homosexual that sins by having homosexual sex.

I like the distinction. The act is what makes the difference and what I referred to in "taking up one's cross". It's the difference between doing whatever you want or doing your part to conform to God's word.

A homosexual is not sinful because a homosexual does not choose to be a homosexual. Many live chaste and fight against their fallen natures.

This I agree and disagree with at the same time. I'll explain and you are free to respond. A common excuse for this behavior is that they are born that way and have no choice in the matter, as if it were a biological fact such as having brown hair or two arms is a biological fact. I disagree with this. I do agree that all people are born leaning toward a particular sin. I like to eat too much, or things I shouldn't. You and I both tend to be a wee bit angry when others don't see or agree with our point of view. Others are slothful, lustful, or selfish. We are ALL born with a certain sin that we seek more than others, but it is not biological like having two arms or legs. I have read studies that show that men are born with a desire to seek out as many mates as possible, but we are expected to strive against this desire. I believe that homosexuals are the same as all of the above. They are born with more of a desire to sin a particular sin, but are expected by God to strive against it. Just as the slothful should work, the glutton should watch what we eat and the harsh should strive to be patient and loving. Homosexuality, sloth, anger, infidelity are all sin and should be abandoned as desires of the flesh

But this is according to the Catholic Church, so I don't want to debate or anything here. I was actually agreeing with Gabriel.

Thank you. You and I are not so different. Perhaps that's why we always butt heads.

 

[kdet]

as a former homosexual, i would like to comment...

i think "saved homosexual" is a misnomer....

if one is truly saved, there is fruit to reveal that.... if one is saved, you are CHANGED, you DIE TO YOURSELF, FORSAKE THE FORMER THINGS, and become a NEW CREATION. i dont mean to say that one is instantaneously delivered of homosexual tendencies. i mean to say that one will now identify themselves with CHRIST and not by their sinful desires. they will RENOUNCE that way of life and walk away from it. repent = turn around and walk around the other way. might they fall into sin from time to time? maybe, maybe not. some seem to have a harder struggle against it than others. i only fell once, shortly after becoming a christian. but that did not continue to designate me a homosexual. i ceased "being" a homosexual the day i gave control over my life - over EVERY aspect of my life - to Christ. i was, simply, a baby christian who fell into sin. but i sure didnt stay there. it was no longer the place for me, the life for me; i didnt belong there anymore.

to me, a "homosexual" is one who actively, and unrepentantly, practices homosexuality. a repentant christian who was formerly a homosexual would be better termed a "former" or "recovering" homosexual".

if there is not FRUIT from the tree, the tree is not a good tree, it is a bad tree. you shall know them by their fruits.

note: sometimes baby christians who dont understand why it's sin may be persistant in it - FOR A SHORT TIME. the fruit is already there, though, in the sense that they are SEEKING God's will, and desire to be obedient to God, and life a pure and holy life. but if they've had it drilled into them for time immemorial that you can be a practicing homosexual and be a "good" christian, then one can understand if they struggle against that for a while. time will tell.

Amen
I agree with you completely...thank you for your testimony.

 

[P_G]

The problem is always sin
The answer is always Jesus!


The church always has a problem with the sin of homosexuality
I think first because 90% of us are not homosexual
But also because there is a push from the remaining 10% to gain social acceptance
in all arenas.

God HATES sin! He really does.
And salvation comes through acceptance of Jesus as Lord
Faith in who and what he is
And Repantance of the sinful nature

Something familar from John 3
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.


Here is the point if you are indeed born again you have accepted Jesus not only as SAVIOR but also LORD!

Accepting Salvation is easy. No one wants eternal punishment in fact for the most part we don't want to accept any responsibility for our actions.

Accepting Lordship is a whole nuther thing though isn't it. Thats going to mean that I have to play by the rules of a holy and righteous God! I may stumble here and there but if Jesus is leading then I am not going to desire to sin and I surely am not going to be PROUD of my sin.

What I see is a group that wants the forgiveness and not the Lordship. Anyone who is in open unrepantant sin I beleive based on scripture has not been reborn of the spirit and thus is unsaved.

Yes I agree that G-d loves you and he stands ready to becon you home. But you have to walk all the way to Him to get the robe and the ring.

I am sorry you will not be able to serve Ha'Satan as you have in the past. It's time to pick up your cross and follow Jesus!


Blessings

Pastor George