Homosexuality

ziggy29 said:

I believe homosexuality is a sin but I believe some of the more vitriolic and judgmental comments against them as people (and not just against their sins) is just as sinful, if not more so as it violates the Greatest Commandment that Jesus left for us. That they do this supposedly in the name of God makes it even worse.

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You see! . We may have differing opinions on homosexuality but this is a great post! Civil discussion.

Avniel said:

so you dnt think homosexuality is against God?

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I agree that the passages that are used to condemn homosexuality do condemn some actions that can be described as "homosexual." But it is far from clear that they condemn all homosexual acts, and they certainly do not condemn homosexuality itself, the orientation.

My position is that even if we are clear in our own minds that God intended these passages to be read such that any "homosexual act" is against His will, we are not to despise an honest opinion by someone else that a narrower reading is permissible or even preferable as "deliberate lies" or "twisting the Scripture for their own ends."

Further, my position is that we are told throughout Scripture that we are not God; we are not without sin ourselves, we cannot read the hearts of men. We have no standing to judge other men. We have no authority to judge other men. Only One Man is God; only One Man is without sin; only One Man can read the hearts of men. Only Jesus has the standing to judge men. Only Jesus has been given the authority to judge men. And He, in His mercy has decided not to judge us, but rather to seek us out and Redeem us. There will be a judgment at the end of time that cannot be avoided, but until then, it is His will to bring all men to Himself.

VertigoAge said:

Yes and yes. The sin of pride and the dismissal of the second greatest commandment is much more of a concern for the future of Christianity than any sexual sin.

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I believe you should hate the sin not the sinner, homosexuality is against God and I wont support it. And for that I am sorry but the God's word says its wrong. Now if a homosexual really wants to learn and open their mind to the teaching of Jesus Christ thats a blessing in itself. However I am not going to act like its ok and we can accept it and its not a wicked lifestyle.

If I dont excuse my sins it wouldnt be loving if I excused someone else's sin. Sin is sin wrong is wrong. And by excuse I mean act like its acceptable and its not.

OllieFranz said:

I agree that the passages that are used to condemn homosexuality do condemn some actions that can be described as "homosexual." But it is far from clear that they condemn all homosexual acts, and they certainly do not condemn homosexuality itself, the orientation.

My position is that even if we are clear in our own minds that God intended these passages to be read such that any "homosexual act" is against His will, we are not to despise an honest opinion by someone else that a narrower reading is permissible or even preferable as "deliberate lies" or "twisting the Scripture for their own ends."

Further, my position is that we are told throughout Scripture that we are not God; we are not without sin ourselves, we cannot read the hearts of men. We have no standing to judge other men. We have no authority to judge other men. Only One Man is God; only One Man is without sin; only One Man can read the hearts of men. Only Jesus has the standing to judge men. Only Jesus has been given the authority to judge men. And He, in His mercy has decided not to judge us, but rather to seek us out and Redeem us. There will be a judgment at the end of time that cannot be avoided, but until then, it is His will to bring all men to Himself.

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Ok at least we agree on that(the bold).

Do you believe that the Bible is God's word? Do you believe that the bible is with out flaw front to back? Do you follow what the Bible says? Do you believe that Christianity is being Christ like?

Do you feel that the bible gives us instructions on how to and not to live in Christ?

If the bible says dont cheat on your wife and I am a habitual cheater with no remorse i even manipulate(which is against God in itself) God's word to fit their sin, thats not me looking at them or judging them thats me looking at what they do and telling them its wrong.

And I dont even blame homosexuals for feeling that way I blame the church. The church is so weak right now, ppl dont even know what they stand for. No wonder most of my friends are moving to Islam, get right church.

Avniel said:

so you dnt think homosexuality is against God?

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There is absolutely no logical or rational reason for why it should be. Your arguments against it are purely emotional. They are not based in logic.

Avniel said:

Ok at least we agree on that(the bold).

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Thank you for that. But do you not see the implications? (I may explain what I see as the implications at the end of this post if there is room, but first I want to answer some of your questions.

Do you believe that the Bible is God's word? Do you believe that the bible is with out flaw front to back? Do you follow what the Bible says? Do you believe that Christianity is being Christ like?

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I believe that the Word of God is Jesus Christ (John 1). I believe that the Wisdom of God is the Holy Spirit (Proverbs 8) No book, no matter how holy can encompass all that is implied in these titles.

Having said that, however, I do believe that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16)." But that does not mean that God carved the books in stone without human intervention. Instead, He chose men to speak of this instruction in righteousness. He chose particular men because of who they were knowing their backgrounds would influence how they would choose to pass on this instruction in righteousness. And He often chose them as much for their flaws and weaknesses as for their strengths.

I do try to learn righteousness from the Scriptures, but to do that, it is important to understand just what it is that the Scriptures are teaching.

Without getting into the mechanics of how the Scriptures came down to us, or the inherent difficulty in translating from one language to another -- especially when they are the languages of two vastly different cultures -- let me just say that I trust in the power of God to preserve the important essence of the teachings in the Bible, despite any corruption of the text that might creep in due to human involvement in the process. But that process may have resulted in passages that are no longer as clear as they might be, and others (for example where an idiom was translated literally) which may even appear to be misleading.

One way to try to correct for this possibility is to examine other ancient documents. The goal is not to replace the Bible but to understand it. So, for example, we look at the Talmud and the Midrash not necessarily to accept their conclusions, but to see what it was that they discussed about the Scriptures: what was obvious was not, or barely, discussed. What was less clear was the subject of discussion: "What did God mean when he had Moses write this?"

Or we look at contemporary writings to determine if a phrase from the Bible is known to be a common idiom, or if we should interpret it more literally. (Because the KJV tended to translate idioms literally even when it was clear they were idioms, many of them transferred as idioms into English (occasionally with minor changes or additions: "the lying of" became "to lie with" both implying sex rather than rest, the usual meaning of lie; "to know [one's] wife" meant marital relations, and in English has been expanded -- in the phrase "to know, biblically" -- to mean sex in general. In fact the "biblically" aknowledges three things: that it is an idiom [it needs to be distinguished from the normal use of the word], it is a borrowed idiom, and we know the origin of its use in English, and it is borrowed from another language [the KJV is a translation from other languages])

We also look at contemporary literature because the Biblical authors occasionally quoted it, or otherwise referenced it, and we might be able to get a better picture of what They had in mind, whether to agree with or to rip apart. Twice (Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12) Paul quotes from the Cretica by Epimenides. In Acts, it is to point out that what is just poetical praise when applied to Zeus is nothing less than the simple truth when applied to the true God. In Titus it is without referencing the meaning of Epimenides' poem; he is simply turning it into an ethnic joke "All Cretan are liars and one of their own said so."

So we come closer to understanding the point Paul was making when we recognize that he was quoting another, even more famous, Greek philosopher who, in the middle of making a point about certain sins (things that are "against nature"), made a different ethnic joke about Cretans. Or that in the diatribe at the beginning of his letter to the churches in Rome, he was deliberately imitating the rhetoric of the increasingly popular "apocalyptic" literature of holier-than-than-the-gentiles Jewish "prophets."

No, Christianity is not about being Christlike; it is about the ongoing process of being transformed into Christ's image. God does not expect us to be perfect to become Christians.

Do you feel that the bible gives us instructions on how to and not to live in Christ?

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Quoting that verse is the only possible answer to the words of your question. But what about the spirit of the question?

This goes to the difference between a bad teacher and a good teacher. A bad teacher teaches for the test. The student learns exactly that part of the textbook which addresses what is expected to give the correct on the test and absolutely nothing more, and is unprepared for life. A good teacher makes use of the student's intellegence, his curiosity, and his life experiences and forgets about the test. The student learns to think for himself, to read and appreciate the entire textbook, and to apply what he has learned to his life. When the test comes, if it at all tests for the things that the textbook was attempting to explain, the student can easily pass, giving not just rote, prepackaged answers, but highly reasoned discussions of why and how it is the best answer.

The Holy Spirit is the teacher, and the Bible is the primary textbook He uses in His instruction. I believe that the Holy Spirit is a good teacher. The way too many fundamentalist and other conservative posters write, they seem to believe He is a bad teacher, teaching only the rules to pass the test of the final judgment.

If the bible says dont cheat on your wife and I am a habitual cheater with no remorse i even manipulate(which is against God in itself) God's word to fit their sin, thats not me looking at them or judging them thats me looking at what they do and telling them its wrong.

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If the Bible says don't have sex with prostitutes, and that ideally celibacy is to be preferred for the sake of the gospel, but you honestly believe it also says it is better to marry than to burn and so you habitually have sex with your wife with no remorse, are you "manipulating God's word"? If I'm a celibate aesthete who believes that the Bible forbids all sex can I look at you and tell you its wrong?

How do you reconcile this attitude with Romans 14?

And I dont even blame homosexuals for feeling that way I blame the church. The church is so weak right now, ppl dont even know what they stand for. No wonder most of my friends are moving to Islam, get right church.

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Jase said:

There is absolutely no logical or rational reason for why it should be. Your arguments against it are purely emotional. They are not based in logic.

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That is a diversional tactic.

Homosexuality is clearly a sin and unnatural as God has told us so. If anyone should be emotional about it, it will be Him on Judgment Day.

Lively Stone said:

That is a diversional tactic.

Homosexuality is clearly a sin and unnatural as God has told us so. If anyone should be emotional about it, it will be Him on Judgment Day.

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Hmm, let's see. 5 verses in the entire Bible even remotely hinting at same-sex behavior (not orientation), and their translation and interpretation is highly suspect. Jesus never said a single word about the subject.

Sorry, I see nothing clear on the subject.

As for being unnatural. You'd have to define what you mean by "unnatural" since homosexuality is prevelant throughout all of nature.

And I seriously doubt God will pat all the conservative Christians on the back for spending their lives bashing his gay children, and telling them they are going straight to hell for the way they were born.

But you keep telling yourself he agrees with you if that helps you sleep at night.

OllieFranz said:

Thank you for that. But do you not see the implications? (I may explain what I see as the implications at the end of this post if there is room, but first I want to answer some of your questions.



I believe that the Word of God is Jesus Christ (John 1). I believe that the Wisdom of God is the Holy Spirit (Proverbs 8) No book, no matter how holy can encompass all that is implied in these titles.

Having said that, however, I do believe that "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16)." But that does not mean that God carved the books in stone without human intervention. Instead, He chose men to speak of this instruction in righteousness. He chose particular men because of who they were knowing their backgrounds would influence how they would choose to pass on this instruction in righteousness. And He often chose them as much for their flaws and weaknesses as for their strengths.

I do try to learn righteousness from the Scriptures, but to do that, it is important to understand just what it is that the Scriptures are teaching.

Without getting into the mechanics of how the Scriptures came down to us, or the inherent difficulty in translating from one language to another -- especially when they are the languages of two vastly different cultures -- let me just say that I trust in the power of God to preserve the important essence of the teachings in the Bible, despite any corruption of the text that might creep in due to human involvement in the process. But that process may have resulted in passages that are no longer as clear as they might be, and others (for example where an idiom was translated literally) which may even appear to be misleading.

One way to try to correct for this possibility is to examine other ancient documents. The goal is not to replace the Bible but to understand it. So, for example, we look at the Talmud and the Midrash not necessarily to accept their conclusions, but to see what it was that they discussed about the Scriptures: what was obvious was not, or barely, discussed. What was less clear was the subject of discussion: "What did God mean when he had Moses write this?"

Or we look at contemporary writings to determine if a phrase from the Bible is known to be a common idiom, or if we should interpret it more literally. (Because the KJV tended to translate idioms literally even when it was clear they were idioms, many of them transferred as idioms into English (occasionally with minor changes or additions: "the lying of" became "to lie with" both implying sex rather than rest, the usual meaning of lie; "to know [one's] wife" meant marital relations, and in English has been expanded -- in the phrase "to know, biblically" -- to mean sex in general. In fact the "biblically" aknowledges three things: that it is an idiom [it needs to be distinguished from the normal use of the word], it is a borrowed idiom, and we know the origin of its use in English, and it is borrowed from another language [the KJV is a translation from other languages])

We also look at contemporary literature because the Biblical authors occasionally quoted it, or otherwise referenced it, and we might be able to get a better picture of what They had in mind, whether to agree with or to rip apart. Twice (Acts 17:28 and Titus 1:12) Paul quotes from the Cretica by Epimenides. In Acts, it is to point out that what is just poetical praise when applied to Zeus is nothing less than the simple truth when applied to the true God. In Titus it is without referencing the meaning of Epimenides' poem; he is simply turning it into an ethnic joke "All Cretan are liars and one of their own said so."

So we come closer to understanding the point Paul was making when we recognize that he was quoting another, even more famous, Greek philosopher who, in the middle of making a point about certain sins (things that are "against nature"), made a different ethnic joke about Cretans. Or that in the diatribe at the beginning of his letter to the churches in Rome, he was deliberately imitating the rhetoric of the increasingly popular "apocalyptic" literature of holier-than-than-the-gentiles Jewish "prophets."

No, Christianity is not about being Christlike; it is about the ongoing process of being transformed into Christ's image. God does not expect us to be perfect to become Christians.

Just as I am, and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To you whose blood can cleanse each spot,
O Lamb of God, I come; I come.
​

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness
2 Timothy 3:16
​

Quoting that verse is the only possible answer to the words of your question. But what about the spirit of the question?

This goes to the difference between a bad teacher and a good teacher. A bad teacher teaches for the test. The student learns exactly that part of the textbook which addresses what is expected to give the correct on the test and absolutely nothing more, and is unprepared for life. A good teacher makes use of the student's intellegence, his curiosity, and his life experiences and forgets about the test. The student learns to think for himself, to read and appreciate the entire textbook, and to apply what he has learned to his life. When the test comes, if it at all tests for the things that the textbook was attempting to explain, the student can easily pass, giving not just rote, prepackaged answers, but highly reasoned discussions of why and how it is the best answer.

The Holy Spirit is the teacher, and the Bible is the primary textbook He uses in His instruction. I believe that the Holy Spirit is a good teacher. The way too many fundamentalist and other conservative posters write, they seem to believe He is a bad teacher, teaching only the rules to pass the test of the final judgment.



If the Bible says don't have sex with prostitutes, and that ideally celibacy is to be preferred for the sake of the gospel, but you honestly believe it also says it is better to marry than to burn and so you habitually have sex with your wife with no remorse, are you "manipulating God's word"? If I'm a celibate aesthete who believes that the Bible forbids all sex can I look at you and tell you its wrong?

How do you reconcile this attitude with Romans 14?

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I was just wondering if you held the bible as true.

No what I am saying is too many people in the church have adopted this worldly view of the gospel.....that is not what the word of God says. If you can find me one scripture that says homosexuality is supported by the bible I will stand correct....However I can find several scriptures that arguable place homosexuality in a bad light. And until then I am going to be lead by my holy ghost and say to be born again and created a new creature is to accept Jesus Christ and by doing so you enter in a fight with your flesh...

Avniel said:

I believe you should hate the sin not the sinner, homosexuality is against God and I wont support it. And for that I am sorry but the God's word says its wrong. Now if a homosexual really wants to learn and open their mind to the teaching of Jesus Christ thats a blessing in itself. However I am not going to act like its ok and we can accept it and its not a wicked lifestyle.

If I dont excuse my sins it wouldnt be loving if I excused someone else's sin. Sin is sin wrong is wrong. And by excuse I mean act like its acceptable and its not.

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Hmmm . . .seems to me that what is good for the goose is also good for the gander. It's my understanding from scripture that NONE are righteous, Avniel. So, that would have to include you, sad to say. This means that you are a sinner ...someone who (gasp) sins. And, as you say, sin is sin, wrong is wrong. So, whatever you might say that somehow 'excuses' your sins but not 'the sins' of others is unacceptable. I just can't get my head around the idea that a sinner actually has the gall to call out someone else for 'sinning'. Can you help me out here?

Lively Stone said:

That is a diversional tactic.

Homosexuality is clearly a sin and unnatural as God has told us so. If anyone should be emotional about it, it will be Him on Judgment Day.

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You can say that I'm being silly in defence of your particular viewpoint on this issue but I'll ask the following question anyway. Planting different crops side by side is an abomination to God. Doing so is clearly a sin and unnatural as God has told us so. If anyone should be emotional about 'the crop issue' because they commit the sin of planting crops side by side, it will be Him on Judgment Day. Will God be harsh to the 'crop planter' on Judgment Day and condemn them to hell? If not, why does one abomination stand while the other abomination falls ...?

I'm serious, by the way.

Jase said:

Hmm, let's see. 5 verses in the entire Bible even remotely hinting at same-sex behavior (not orientation), and their translation and interpretation is highly suspect. Jesus never said a single word about the subject.

Sorry, I see nothing clear on the subject.

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That is your opinion. Holy Spirit speaks to us what is truth about it when we read it. If you reject Him you will reject what he speaks.

The Word of God is explicit.

As for being unnatural. You'd have to define what you mean by "unnatural" since homosexuality is prevelant throughout all of nature.

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That is simply rationalization. Mankind is above the animal kingdom. We are created in the image of God. We are expected to follow His ways, not an animal's.

And I seriously doubt God will pat all the conservative Christians on the back for spending their lives bashing his gay children, and telling them they are going straight to hell for the way they were born.

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Who is bashing? We are promoting the word of God in the matter. What God says is supreme...not what I say or what you say.

The bible gives us a clear picture about who will suffer condemnation--sinners--those who live outside of Christ.

But you keep telling yourself he agrees with you if that helps you sleep at night.

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I agree with God. He blesses me with sweet sleep, according to His promise.

Proverbs 3:21-24
21 My child, don’t lose sight of common sense and discernment.
Hang on to them,
22 for they will refresh your soul.
They are like jewels on a necklace.
23 They keep you safe on your way,
and your feet will not stumble.
24 You can go to bed without fear;
you will lie down and sleep soundly.

KCKID said:

You can say that I'm being silly in defence of your particular viewpoint on this issue but I'll ask the following question anyway. Planting different crops side by side is an abomination to God. Doing so is clearly a sin and unnatural as God has told us so. If anyone should be emotional about 'the crop issue' because they commit the sin of planting crops side by side, it will be Him on Judgment Day. Will God be harsh to the 'crop planter' on Judgment Day and condemn them to hell? If not, why does one abomination stand while the other abomination falls ...?

I'm serious, by the way.

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God was teaching His people about good land use and farming well. he was giving them good law.

Homosexuality is a sin that involves the heart of a man and the use of His body--the temple of God in this dispensation.

He is all about relationship. Family is important to God! Homosexuals are anti-family as much as they protest that point. His morality never changes.

KCKID said:

Hmmm . . .seems to me that what is good for the goose is also good for the gander. It's my understanding from scripture that NONE are righteous, Avniel. So, that would have to include you, sad to say. This means that you are a sinner ...someone who (gasp) sins. And, as you say, sin is sin, wrong is wrong. So, whatever you might say that somehow 'excuses' your sins but not 'the sins' of others is unacceptable. I just can't get my head around the idea that a sinner actually has the gall to call out someone else for 'sinning'. Can you help me out here?

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People who are born again are not known as sinners by God. We are saints, saved by Grace, and when he looks on us, he sees us as already perfected because we are covered in the blood of Jesus.

Lively Stone said:

God was teaching His people about good land use and farming well. he was giving them good law.

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Hmmmm, couldn't God have taught His people about good land use, farming and good law without referring to the term 'abomination'? Are you inferring that there are different degrees of what God finds abominable?

Lively Stone said:

Homosexuality is a sin that involves the heart of a man and the use of His body--the temple of God in this dispensation.

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No offense but you either made that up or you use what you've been taught to say simply because it 'sounds good'. It's not scriptural.

Lively Stone said:

He is all about relationship. Family is important to God! Homosexuals are anti-family as much as they protest that point. His morality never changes.

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God's morality never changes? You DO realize that God approves of rape, murder, pillage and the taking of slaves, do you not? I surely HOPE that God's morality changed when Jesus arrived on the scene. It seems like it did. As for family being important to God, He seems fine with child sacrifice just as long as it isn't done in dedication to Molech (Leviticus 18:21).

Lively Stone said:

People who are born again are not known as sinners by God. We are saints, saved by Grace, and when he looks on us, he sees us as already perfected because we are covered in the blood of Jesus.

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So, what makes you 'more special' then from born again homosexual Christians who are also saints, saved by grace, and seen as perfected because they are covered by the blood of Jesus ...?

Sorry, but I'm just not getting it . . .

KCKID said:

Hmmm . . .seems to me that what is good for the goose is also good for the gander. It's my understanding from scripture that NONE are righteous, Avniel. So, that would have to include you, sad to say. This means that you are a sinner ...someone who (gasp) sins. And, as you say, sin is sin, wrong is wrong. So, whatever you might say that somehow 'excuses' your sins but not 'the sins' of others is unacceptable. I just can't get my head around the idea that a sinner actually has the gall to call out someone else for 'sinning'. Can you help me out here?

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I never said I wasn't a sinner in fact I actually called out my own sin. And if I am willing to call out my sin best believe I aint scared to tell someone else they're sinning. And why would I excuse my sin? Like I said a sin is sin wrong is wrong...So if I'm wrong then I'm wrong, if I think I am right and someone comes to me with biblical scripture telling me I am wrong I will actually apologies....I've done it here several times, if I'm wrong I'm wrong.......

You keep on saying my sins and what sins I do. Would you like to know about my struggles(NOT ACCEPTANCE STRUGGLES!!) because you know I aint never been scared to give a testimony. Would you like to know my testimony? Even though none of my sins have to do with this topic I can give you a testimony that involves some sinful stuff. Is that what you would like to know my personal daily struggles cause I can give you the list.


Let me break it down to you simple sin is like cheating on God. There are 2 types of sinners those that are born again and those that are not.

Example man cheats on his wife comes to his wife and tells her everything and begs forgiveness and she forgives him and forgets and forgives his infidelities because of his whole heartily apology(you know you cant say im sorry but imma do it again, right?). The 2nd sinner goes to the wife and justifies their cheating and doesnt say sorry because they dnt feel wrong.

See I sin and I fall on my knees and beg God to forgive me then I thank Him for his mercy because I don't deserve it. But in my repentance I ask God to help me fight my flesh because I dont wanna cheat on God again..................guess what once I do that my slate is clean. God looks at my heart and says "that guy really means it he's sorry and his heart is saying he's going to try his best to do better and not fall into sin".......Look At King David.

Im not going to explain anymore I feel like im wasting my time

Lively Stone said:

People who are born again are not known as sinners by God. We are saints, saved by Grace, and when he looks on us, he sees us as already perfected because we are covered in the blood of Jesus.

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Exactly we are made into new creatures when saints sin we fall from grace and when we repent our sins are thrown into the sea of forgetfulness. Am I right? let me know if not send me a private message with the scripture so I can know better................dnt wanna get this off topic anymore then it needs to

Avniel said:

I was just wondering if you held the bible as true.

No what I am saying is too many people in the church have adopted this worldly view of the gospel.....that is not what the word of God says. If you can find me one scripture that says homosexuality is supported by the bible I will stand correct....

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There are no scriptures that place homosexuality (the orientation) in a bad light. There are only two scriptures (Matthew 19:12 and Acts 8:26-39) that touch on the subject, and neither of them do any more than note that some men are gay (and according to the Matthew verse, born that way).

There are five (or six if you want to include Genesis 19, although Judges 19 and 1 Chronicles 19 argue against including it) passage that describe sins that could be considered "homosexual acts," or sinners who commit those acts. There are, however, verses that show that the acts described are just as sinful when the other person involved is of the opposite sex.

While there are no passages that come out and praise "heterosexual acts," there are passages that bless marriage, and childbirth, and Paul suggests that marital sex is necessary to keep Passion levels down to manageable levels, lest Satan tempt one to adultery and other sexual sins. Thus we know that some sexual acts -- specifically marital sex -- are not sins.

In large part, the doctrine that "homosexual acts" are, in themselves, sin is based on the perception that there do not seem to be any passages making a similar exception for proper situations for same-sex pairs to become sexually intimate.

This is a valid interpretation of the Scriptures as we have them. But too many people want to claim it is the only valid interpretation. It is not. So when someone has a different interpretation, the claim is made that it can only be the result of denying or "twisting" the scripture.

But the lack of positive examples is not evidence that something is forbidden any more than the lack of negative examples would prove that it's OK. And many people see "silent" examples of same-sex couples in the Bible. They claim that the Bible is silent on their sexual activity just as it is silent on most cross-sex couples. Nowhere, for example, does the Bible tell us that Abraham had sex with Sarah. We are only fairly certain that they did because Isaac was born, and barring a miracle -- a separate miracle beyond the fact that Sarah was past menopause -- sex is required for conception.

The most commonly pointed out "silent" relationships are those of Jonathan with David and Naomi with Ruth. Because the Bible is silent about whether they sexually consummated their relationships, it is not possible to prove, or even be sure one way or another. The most common counter to the claims that they may have had sexual relations is the assertion that they would not have sinned and "homosexual acts" are sin. But, there is a problem at this point: the "proof" that they did not have gay sex is that gay sex is sinful, but the "proof" that gay sex is sinful was that there are no positive role models. Circular reasoning.

That is not to say that those who believe that "homosexual acts" are sin are wrong, just that there is no way to prove it. But it also means that it is possible to believe in a different doctrine without denying or twisting Scripture.

So if there are two or more honest and valid opinions about whether an activity is a sin, how do we resolve the issue? Paul gives us the answer. He refers to it in several of his letters, but it is in Chapter 14 of the letter to the Romans in which we have the most complete version.
For ourselves, if we are "fully persuaded in [our] own mind" we can do it "to the Lord," then we are free to do it. But if we doubt, we are damned because we do it "not of faith," and "whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

But in relating to others, there is a different dynamic: "Let not him who [does the disputed act] despise him that [does] not; and let not him which [does] not [do the disputed act] judge him that [does]: for God hath received him." And the reason is that "[T]o his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand."

"Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean."

"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another."

"Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth."

And until then I am going to be lead by my holy ghost and say to be born again and created a new creature is to accept Jesus Christ and by doing so you enter in a fight with your flesh...

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I can't disagree with anything in this paragraph. The thing that concerns me, though, is that, looking at the whole of your position, you almost seem to be trying to make everyone conform to the plan the Holy Spirit has for your sanctification, when He works with everyone differently, based on their individual strengths, weaknesses, and needs. If there is any growth, we should rejoice, even when there are other areas where they seem to have stagnated. If the Holy Spirit wants to convict him that something he is holding on to is really sin, He will convict him in His own time.

OllieFranz said:

There are no scriptures that place homosexuality (the orientation) in a bad light. There are only two scriptures (Matthew 19:12 and Acts 8:26-39) that touch on the subject, and neither of them do any more than note that some men are gay (and according to the Matthew verse, born that way).

There are five (or six if you want to include Genesis 19, although Judges 19 and 1 Chronicles 19 argue against including it) passage that describe sins that could be considered "homosexual acts," or sinners who commit those acts. There are, however, verses that show that the acts described are just as sinful when the other person involved is of the opposite sex.

While there are no passages that come out and praise "heterosexual acts," there are passages that bless marriage, and childbirth, and Paul suggests that marital sex is necessary to keep Passion levels down to manageable levels, lest Satan tempt one to adultery and other sexual sins. Thus we know that some sexual acts -- specifically marital sex -- are not sins.

In large part, the doctrine that "homosexual acts" are, in themselves, sin is based on the perception that there do not seem to be any passages making a similar exception for proper situations for same-sex pairs to become sexually intimate.

This is a valid interpretation of the Scriptures as we have them. But too many people want to claim it is the only valid interpretation. It is not. So when someone has a different interpretation, the claim is made that it can only be the result of denying or "twisting" the scripture.

But the lack of positive examples is not evidence that something is forbidden any more than the lack of negative examples would prove that it's OK. And many people see "silent" examples of same-sex couples in the Bible. They claim that the Bible is silent on their sexual activity just as it is silent on most cross-sex couples. Nowhere, for example, does the Bible tell us that Abraham had sex with Sarah. We are only fairly certain that they did because Isaac was born, and barring a miracle -- a separate miracle beyond the fact that Sarah was past menopause -- sex is required for conception.

The most commonly pointed out "silent" relationships are those of Jonathan with David and Naomi with Ruth. Because the Bible is silent about whether they sexually consummated their relationships, it is not possible to prove, or even be sure one way or another. The most common counter to the claims that they may have had sexual relations is the assertion that they would not have sinned and "homosexual acts" are sin. But, there is a problem at this point: the "proof" that they did not have gay sex is that gay sex is sinful, but the "proof" that gay sex is sinful was that there are no positive role models. Circular reasoning.

That is not to say that those who believe that "homosexual acts" are sin are wrong, just that there is no way to prove it. But it also means that it is possible to believe in a different doctrine without denying or twisting Scripture.

So if there are two or more honest and valid opinions about whether an activity is a sin, how do we resolve the issue? Paul gives us the answer. He refers to it in several of his letters, but it is in Chapter 14 of the letter to the Romans in which we have the most complete version.

Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations. For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand. One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.

But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. Let not then your good be evil spoken of:

For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another. For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure; but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence. It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.

Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth. And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
Romans 14
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For ourselves, if we are "fully persuaded in [our] own mind" we can do it "to the Lord," then we are free to do it. But if we doubt, we are damned because we do it "not of faith," and "whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

But in relating to others, there is a different dynamic: "Let not him who [does the disputed act] despise him that [does] not; and let not him which [does] not [do the disputed act] judge him that [does]: for God hath received him." And the reason is that "[T]o his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand."

"Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean."

"Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another."

"Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth."



I can't disagree with anything in this paragraph. The thing that concerns me, though, is that, looking at the whole of your position, you almost seem to be trying to make everyone conform to the plan the Holy Spirit has for your sanctification, when He works with everyone differently, based on their individual strengths, weaknesses, and needs. If there is any growth, we should rejoice, even when there are other areas where they seem to have stagnated. If the Holy Spirit wants to convict him that something he is holding on to is really sin, He will convict him in His own time.

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Well let me go ahead and murder the guy that robbed me, or me and my girlfriend can have sex now, let me smoke weed, let me drink as much as I want till I get frost, use profanity, I'm not even going to go to church on sunday and nobody can tell me im wrong either..............thats only fair...........because if these were sins then the Holy Spirit will convict me????????

At the end of the day the Bible is the Bible what it says isn't right isn't right. Anything that leads to death I am going to say its wrong, and I am not trying to conform anyone to anything I know when Jesus comes back my place is straight.....I do everything I can to line up with the word of God and if I dont I repent and try my best not to do it, its a constant effort......Thats on them I'm just telling them what the Bible says, I am not going to argue over what the Bible plainly says but I am not going to allow the word of God to be manipulated in anyway.

I'm not going to give you a list of scriptures you know what the bible says you can justify what you want and if in your hearts of hearts you have a belief that homosexuality isnt a sin thats your issue with God sad to say but I could honestly careless several ppl posted the truth I did my job as a believer that everything God ever had a hand in or on creating is perfect....and I follow his word like its perfect because i have faith in that.

if you kill someone and i say you know you just sinned right am i judging you or stating the obvious? If you ustole from my grandma and I say stealing is a sin does that mean im judging you? If you tell me you like to live a fornicators lifestyle am I wrong to say my dude your sinning. NO because I do it out of love