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Bro.T

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and the winner for copy and paste AWARD of all time goes to ...

*drum rolls

TANZEL !!!!

Proverbs 18

18:4 The words of a man’s mouth are as deep waters, and the wellspring of wisdom as a flowing brook.

18:5 It is not good to accept the person of the wicked, to overthrow the righteous in judgment.

18:6 A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.

18:7 A fool’s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.

Proverbs 9

9:9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Revelation 22:14)

peace in jesus name
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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and the winner for copy and paste AWARD of all time goes to ...

*drum rolls

TANZEL !!!!

Proverbs 18

18:4 The words of a man’s mouth are as deep waters, and the wellspring of wisdom as a flowing brook.

18:5 It is not good to accept the person of the wicked, to overthrow the righteous in judgment.

18:6A fool’s lips enter into contention, and his mouth calleth for strokes.

18:7 A fool’s mouth is his destruction, and his lips are the snare of his soul.

Proverbs 9

9:9 Give instruction to a wise man, and he will be yet wiser: teach a just man, and he will increase in learning.

9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. (Revelation 22:14)

peace in jesus name
And he answers with another cut and paste.... ^_^

What Kasih is trying to say, I think, is this: Yes, Jesus quoted Scripture, but He also had an original thought now and then. He didn't *only* quote Scripture.

Cutting and pasting Scripture, in my opinion, doesn't go far enough in answering questions or shedding light on a topic. After knowing what the Bible says, the next step is applying it to daily life. Our *own* daily lives, that is. Remove the plank from your own eye, IOW.

Peace.
 
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Bro.T

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And he answers with another cut and paste.... ^_^

What Kasih is trying to say, I think, is this: Yes, Jesus quoted Scripture, but He also had an original thought now and then. He didn't *only* quote Scripture.

Cutting and pasting Scripture, in my opinion, doesn't go far enough in answering questions or shedding light on a topic. After knowing what the Bible says, the next step is applying it to daily life. Our *own* daily lives, that is. Remove the plank from your own eye, IOW.

Peace.
I'll try to lighten up a little. Thanks for the concern

peace in jesus name
 
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Sinfonian333

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Tanzel... you're missing some key points here. Fortunately, I have researched the topic myself... historically.

I've spent some time compiling some research myself to show the facts. If only I spent this much time and effort in English 101 and 102, but that's not the topic at hand ;-)

Before we get into this essay of a blog let me get the most basic, yet childish, defense for anti-homosexuality out of the way. I am convinced that the Bible carries a powerful message for straight, gay, and lesbian Christians, but the condemnation that we all hear about.

"But Matt Matt... it's Adam and Eve not Adam and Steve."

I'm sorry but this is the most uneducated and infantile defense. So if you are going to say something along the lines of this ignorant statement then please keep it to yourself. We've heard it a million times.

By the way, did you know that out of the almost one million verses in the Bible, only six or seven say anything same-sex behavior? Hmmm...

What I am going to do is divide this thing into Premises that I've either come up with and/or found around. Thanks Rev. Mel White!

PREMISE ONE:
Many people have not carefully researched the biblical text often used to condemn God's lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender CHILDREN.

"
But Matt Matt... you don't need to read around the verses... just the verse itself."Lets face it... biblical ignorance a huge epidemic in the United States. Did you know that 38% of America thinks the Old Testament was written after Jesus' death? What about the 10% that think Joan of Arc was Noah's wife? OR the ones that thought the epistles were the wives of the apostles? This same kind of biblical ignorance all way too present around the topic of homosexuality.

Many Christians don't know that:

- Jesus says nothing about same-sex behavior.
- The Jewish prophets are silent about homosexuality.
- Only six or seven of the Bible's one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way... and none of these verses refer to homosexual orientation as it's understood today.

Most of the people who are certain the Bible the Bible condemns homosexuality don't even know where the references are. They haven't read them, studied them, or researched the historical context in which they were written. Yet the assumption that the Bible condemns homosexuality is passed down from generation to generation.

PREMISE TWO:
Historically speaking, people's misinterpretation of the Bible has left a trail of suffering, bloodshed, and even death.

"But Matt Matt... no person of good will would misuse the Bible to support his/her prejudice."

Time has shown it to us again and again. Misinterpretation of the Bible has led to terrible things in this world such as:

- Bloody crusades and tragic inquisitions
- Slavery
- Segregation
- Persecution of Jews and other non-Christian faiths for that matter
- Hitler's Third Reich
- The Holocaust
- Opposition of medical science
- Condemnation of interracial marriages
- Execution of women as witches
- Ku Klux Klan

Shakespeare said it best, "Even the devil can cite Scripture for his purpose."

In the 16th century, John Selden pointed at two Latin words carved into a marble wall in an ancient church in Rome: "Scrutamini Scripturas," which means search the Scriptures. "These two words," Seldon said, "have undone the world."
In one way, John Selden was right. Misusing the Bible has drenched the planet in blood and tears.
But in another way, he was wrong. Most people who misuse the Bible DON'T search the Scriptures. They simply find a text that seems to support their prejudice and then spend the rest of their lives quoting (or misquoting) that text.

Here are some things that misinterpretation of homosexuality has led to. Please feel free to Google these names:

- Danny Overstreet
- Gary Matson and Winfield Mowder
- Matthew Shepard

Let me ask you... would the people saying that "the Bible condemns homosexuality" condone THESE acts? I think not. Lives hang in the balance people!

Homosexuals are rejected by their friends and families, fired by their employers, denied their civil rights, refused full membership in their churches, and kill themselves or are killed by others... all based on these SIX OR SEVEN VERSES.

PREMISE THREE:
We must be open to new truth from Scripture.

"But Matt Matt... there is only the Old Truth... forever."

Let's take a look at a great Christian hero who changed his mind.

We all know about Paul don't we? It took a burst of light, a voice from heaven, and a blanket filled with all kinds of animals for Paul to change his mind about certain Hebrew texts and gain new insights on Jewish law. Even when we believe the Scriptures are "infallible" or "without error," it's terribly dangerous to think that our understanding of every biblical text is also "without error." We are human. We are fallible. And we can misunderstand and misinterpret these ancient words... with tragic results. Just take a look at famous cult leaders Charles Manson, Jim Jones, and the Westboro Baptist Church.

What if I someone asked you, "Is there a chance you could be wrong about the way you've interpreted the biblical texts sometimes used to condemn homosexual orientation?" How would you respond? What does it say about YOU if you answer, "No, I could NOT be wrong"? Examine the facts... lives hang in the balance.

Let's visit some tragedies shall we? Mark B. was a young man who accepted his sexual orientation as a gay man. He got saved through Jesus Christ, became a Christian, and was told, based on these few verses, that it was impossible to be a Christian and a gay man. Let me tell you something about Mark. Mark committed suicide and left a letter written to God that read:

God -

I just don't know how else to fix this.

Mark

We all know about the Soulforce team right? Well one of its most faithful volunteers, Mary Lou Wallner, was led by these texts to condemn her lesbian daughter, Anna. Let me tel you something about Anna. She hanged herself. Mary Lou now says, "If I can steer just one person away from the pain and anguish I've been living, then maybe Anna's death will have meaning."

If heroes of the Christian faith could change their minds about the meaning of certain biblical texts, shouldn't we be prepared to reconsider our own interpretations of these ancient words when the Holy Spirit opens our minds and hearts to new truth? That's why we study the Bible prayerfully, seeking the Spirit of Truth, God's loving Spirit, to help us understand and apply these words to our lives.

On the night he was betrayed, Jesus told his disciples he was going away from them for a while, but that the Father would send them a "Comforter," an "Advocate," the "Holy Spirit" who would "teach them all things."

I believe with all my heart that the Holy Spirit is still teaching us. When we reconsider the texts that are used by some people to condemn God's gay children, we must seek the Holy Spirit's guidance, or we risk being misled by our own prejudices.
 
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Sinfonian333

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PREMISE FOUR:
The Bible is a book about God... not a book about human sexuality.

"But Matt Matt... God's law on human sexuality is IN the Bible."

Let's take a look at what else God says about sex.

The Bible is the story of God's love for the world and all the people in it. Rescuing, renewing, and empowering humankind. Certainly you will agree that it was never intended to be a book about human sexuality. In fact, the Bible accepts sexual practices that we condemn and condemns sexual practices that we accept. Lots of them! Here are a few examples, you can look up the verses yourselves... I'm not typing all that:

- DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
- DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
- MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
- LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
- MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
- DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals (or kicking him in the balls), her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

I'm certain you don't agree with all of these teachings the Bible has about sex. The list goes on:

- Sex with a prostitute is acceptable for the husband but not for the wife
- Polygamy (more than one wife) is acceptable. Solomon, the wisest king of all, had over one thousand
- Slavery and sex with slaves
- Marriage of girls aged 11-13
- Treatment of women as property

The Bible also forbids:

- Interracial marriage
- Birth control
- Discussing or even NAMING a sexual organ
- Seeing one's parents nude... I'll give them that... I don't wanna see that

Over the centuries the Holy Spirit has taught us that certain Bible verses should not be understood as God's law for all time periods. Some verses are specific to the culture and time they were written, and are no longer viewed as appropriate, wise, or just.

Often, the Holy Spirit uses science to teach us why those ancient words no longer apply to our modern times. During the last three decades, for example, organizations representing 1.5 million U.S. health professionals (doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, and educators) have stated definitively that homosexual orientation is as natural as heterosexual orientation, that sexual orientation is determined by a combination of yet unknown pre- and post-natal influences, and that it is dangerous and inappropriate to tell a homosexual that he or she could or should attempt to change his or her sexual orientation.

"Homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a cure." - The American Psychological Association

While there are some people now living in heterosexual marriages who once perceived themselves to be gay, there are millions of gay and lesbian persons who have accepted their sexual orientation as a gift from God and live productive and deeply spiritual lives. The evidence from science and from the personal experience of knowing gay and lesbian Christians demands that we at least consider whether the passages cited to condemn homosexual behavior should be reconsidered, just as other Bible verses that speak of certain sexual practices are no longer understood as God's law for us in this day.

PREMISE FIVE:
We're missing what these passages say about God when we spend so much time debating what they say about sex.

"But Matt Matt... what are the six passages used by people to argue thsi issue?"

Well I'm glad you asked. If the Bible is the story of God's love for the world and not a handbook about sex, then that should shape how we read the Scriptures. So as we take a look at the six biblical texts that are used by some people to condemn homosexuality, let's ask two questions about each of them. And let's stay even and ask both sides of the issue:

Question One:
What does the text say about God that we need to hear but might be missing?

Question Two:
What might the text be saying about homosexuality?

PASSAGE 1
GENESIS 2:21-25
THE CREATION STORY

Question One:
Once again, I'm tired of seeing all these pickets, shirts, signs, bumper stickers, posts, and blogs saying "it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." In fact, the creation story is as important to Adam and Steve as it is Adam and Eve. Gays and non-gays alike need to know and celebrate the truth at the center of this story.

This creation story is primarily about God, a story written to show the power of God who created the world and everything in it. It teaches us that ultimately God is our Creator, that God shaped us, and that God said, "It's good." Isn't this the heart of the text?

Question Two:

Because the text says it is "natural" that a man and a woman come together to create a new life, some people think this means gay or lesbian couples are "unnatural." They read this interpretation into the text, even though the text is silent about all kinds of relationships that don't lead to having children:

- Couples who are unable to have children
- Couples who are too old to have children
- Couples who choose not to have children
- People who are single

Are these relationships (or lack of relationships) "unnatural"? There's nothing said here that condemns or approves the love that people of the same sex have for each other. So I believe the creation story says a lot about God's power and presence in the universe... but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today.

PASSAGE 2
GENESIS 19:1-14
THE STORY OF SODOM

Question One:

Ever heard anybody called a homosexual a Sodomite? THAT'S HILARIOUS. They're not from Sodom... they can't be. That city was buried beneath the Dead Sea centuries ago. Once again, this story is not primarily about sex. It is primarily about God. Some people say the city of Sodom was destroyed because it was overrun by sexually obsessed homosexuals. In fact, the city of Sodom had been doomed to destruction long before. So what is this passage really about?

Jesus and five Old Testament prophets all speak of the sins that led to the destruction of Sodom... and not one of them mentions homosexuality. Even Billy Graham, a famous spiritual adviser to multiple U.S. Presidents, doesn't mention homosexuality when he preaches on Sodom.

Ezekiel 16:48-49 tell us: "This is the sin of Sodom; she and her suburbs had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not help or encourage the poor and needy. They were arrogant and this was abominable in God's eyes."

Let's all remember that we break God's heart when we spend all the money we earn on ourselves, when we forget (or avoid) to help the poor and hungry, and when we refuse to do justice or show mercy. When the term Sodomite is used in this way, we can say that many homosexuals AND heterosexuals are Sodomites... greedy, unjust, unfair, unforgiving, and unhelpful. While there are millions that are hungry, homeless, and sick... these "Sodomites" build bigger homes, buy bigger cars, and own more property. They put put all their trust in safe stock portfolios and secure retirement accounts... and not in the LORD!

Whatever teaching about sexuality you might get out of this passage, be sure to hear this central, primary truth about God as well. God has called us do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our Creator. Sodom was destroyed because its people didn't take God seriously about caring for the poor, the hungry, the homeless, or the outcast.

Question Two:
That's easy... nothing.

It was common for soldiers, thieves, and bullies to rape a fallen enemy, finalizing their victory by dehumanizing and demeaning their defeated, yet innocent, opponents. This act of raping an enemy is about power and revenge, not about homosexuality or homosexual orientation. And it is still happening. Spread the word of love... not hate! Go ahead a Google the case of Abner Louima.

The sexual act that occurs in Sodom is a gang rape and homosexuals oppose gang rape as much as anyone else.

PASSAGE 3
LEVITICUS 18:22 AND 20:13
THE HOLINESS CODE

Question One:
Leviticus 18:6 reads: "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female. It is an abomination."

A similar verse occurs two chapters later, in Leviticus 20:13: "A man who sleeps with another man is an abomination and should be executed."

At first these words could leave you feeling uneasy, especially if you are gay. But below the surface, it has a deeper truth about God... and nothing to do with sex.

Leviticus is a holiness code written 3,000 years ago. This code includes many of the outdated sexual laws we mentioned earlier, and a lot more. It also includes prohibitions against round haircuts, tattoos, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabrics, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and even playing with the skin of a pig. Well... there goes football.

"Matt Matt... what's a Holiness Code?"

It's a list of behaviors that people of faith find offensive in a certain place and time. In this case, the code was written for priests only, and its primary intent was to set the priests of Israel over and against priests of other cultures.

There are holiness codes that all kinds of Christian denominations sign that forbid the following:

- Smoking
- Drinking
- Chewing Tobacco
- Dancing

Just to name a few. That means that if they sign this, when they get to high school they get to miss out on their Senior Prom because they can't dance at it. Sad! And I was going to keep this to myself, but isn't there a significant Christian hero who drank WINE at the last supper? Hmm... Jesus anyone?

I did find one thing using this whole Hebrew/Greek thing though. This word "abomination" that comes up in both verses. Abomination in Hebrew is TO-EBAH and are behaviors that people in a certain time and place considered tasteless or offensive. To the Jews an abomination was not a law, not something evil like rape or murder forbidden by the Ten Commandments. It was a common behavior by non-Jews that Jews thought was displeasing to God.

However, Jesus and Paul both said the holiness code in Leviticus does not pertain to Christian believers. Nevertheless, there are still people who pull the two verses about men sleeping together from this ancient holiness code to say that the Bible seems to condemn homosexuality.

But wait!!
Even if the old holiness codes no longer apply to us as Christians, it's important to remember that in every age, people of faith are responsible for setting moral and ethical standards that honor God. But we people of faith must be very careful not to allow our own prejudices to determine what those standards should be.

Instead of selecting one item from an ancient Jewish holiness code and using it to condemn sexual or gender minorities, let's talk together about setting sexual standards that please God... standards appropriate for heterosexuals and homosexuals alike, standards based on loving concern, health, and wholeness for ourselves and for others.

Question Two:
I'm convinced those passages say nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today. Here's why. Consider this single Bible passage that was used for centuries to condemn masturbation. That's right men... masturbation:

"He spilled his seed on the ground... And the thing which Onan did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also" (Genesis 38:9-10).

For Jewish writers of Scripture, a man sleeping with another man was an abomination. But it was also an abomination (and one worthy of death) to touch or even to interrupt coitus (to stop having sex with your spouse before [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] as an act of birth control). Why were these sexual practices considered abominations by Scripture writers in these ancient times?

Because the Hebrew (pre-scientific) understanding was that the male sperm contained the whole of life. With no knowledge of eggs and ovulation, it was assumed that the man's sperm contained the whole child and that the woman provided only the incubation space. Therefore, the spilling of sperm without possibility of having a child was considered murder. BOOM!

The Jews were a small tribe struggling to populate a country. They were outnumbered by their enemy. I'm sure you can see why these ancient people felt it was an abomination to risk "wasting" even a single child. But the passage says nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today. BOOM again!

We've looked at the passages in the Hebrew Scriptures that are used (or misused) by some people to condemn sexual minorities. Now let's look at three verses from the letters of the apostle Paul in the Christian Scriptures that are used the same way. Remember: First, we'll ask what the text says about God (Question One); second, we'll consider what it may or may not say about sexual orientation (Question Two).
 
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Sinfonian333

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PASSAGE 4
ROMANS 1:26-27
NATURAL AND UNNATURAL

Sweeeet! Some New Testament stuff now!

Question One:
This is the MOST controversial passage of them all, I think. This verse appears to be clear. Paul sees women having sex with women and men having sex with men, and he condemns that practice. But let's go back 2,000 years and try to understand why.

Paul is writing this letter to Rome after his missionary tour of the Mediterranean. On his journey Paul had seen great temples built to honor Aphrodite, Diana, and other fertility gods and goddesses of sex and passion instead of the one true God the apostle honors. Apparently, these priests and priestesses engaged in some odd sexual behaviors... including castrating themselves (why? I don't know), carrying on drunken sexual orgies, and even having sex with young temple prostitutes (male and female)... all to honor the gods of sex and pleasure. Sounds like sinful fun right?

The Bible is clear that sexuality is a gift from God. Our Creator celebrates our passion. But the Bible is also clear that when passion gets control of our lives, we're in deep trouble.

When we live for pleasure, when we forget that we are God's children and that God has great dreams for our lives, then we may end up serving the false gods of sex and passion, just as they did in Paul's time. In our obsession with pleasure, we may even WALK AWAY from the God who created us... and in the process we may cause God to abandon all the great dreams He has for our lives.
Did these priests and priestesses get into these behaviors because they were lesbian or gay? I don't think so. Did God abandon them because they were practicing homosexuals? No. Read the text again.

Question Two:
Rev. Dr. Louis B. Smedes, and distinguished Christian author and ethicist, describes exactly how the Bible says these promiscuous priests and priestesses got into this mess. Once again it has nothing to do with homosexuality:

SMEDES: "The people Paul had in mind refused to acknowledge and worship God, and for this reason were abandoned by God. And being abandoned by God, they sank into sexual depravity."

SMEDES: "The homosexuals I know have not rejected God at all; they love God and they thank God for his grace and his gifts. How, then, could they have been abandoned to homosexuality as a punishment for refusing to acknowledge God?"

SMEDES: "Nor have the homosexuals that I know given up heterosexual passions for homosexual lusts. They have been homosexual from the moment of their earliest sexual stirrings. They did not change from one orientation to another; they just discovered that they were homosexual. It would be unnatural for most homosexuals to have heterosexual sex."

SMEDES: "And the homosexual people I know do not lust after each other any more than heterosexual people do... their love for one another is likely to be just as spiritual and personal as any heterosexual love can be."

Getting to know a lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender person of faith will help you realize that it is unreasonable (and unjust) to compare our love for each other to the rituals of the priests and priestesses who pranced around the statues of Aphrodite and Diana. I feel certain this passage says a lot about God, but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it.

Christians who hate... let me say this from Romans 1 (referring to Romans 1):

"Therefore, you have no excuse, whoever you are, when you judge others; for in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself..."

Even after he describes the disturbing practices he saw, Paul warns us that judging others is God's business, not ours. BOOM!

ALMOST THERE! Hang strong! I'll combine them to make this last point easier.


PASSAGES 5 AND 6
1 CORINTHIANS 6:9 AND 1 TIMOTHY 1:10
THE MYSTERY OF "MALOKOIS" AND "ARSENOKOITAI"

Question One:
Paul is tired. The Christians in Ephesus and Corinth are fighting among themselves. (Sound familiar?) In Corinth they're even suing one another in secular courts!! Paul shouts across the distance, "You are breaking God's heart by the way you are treating one another."

Like any good writer, Paul anticipates their first question: "Well, how are we supposed to treat one another?" Paul answers, "You know very well how to treat one another from the Jewish law written on tablets of stone." The Ten Commandments!

They were created by God to regulate human behavior. Paul recites examples from the Jewish law first. Don't kill one another. Don't sleep with a person who is married to someone else. Don't lie or cheat or steal. The list goes on to include admonitions against fornication, idolatry, whoremongering, perjury, drunkenness, revelry, and extortion. He also includes "malokois" and "arsenokoitai."
"But Matt Matt... I'm confused. What are those?"

These two Greek words (good thing I'm in Greek class) have scholars confused.. even today!! Keep these words in your thoughts, we'll get to them when we talk about sex (baby... let's talk about you and me... oops.. sorry). What do these texts say about God?

After quoting from the Jewish law, Paul reminds the Christians in Corinth that they are under a new law... the law of Jesus... a law of love that requires us to do more than just avoid murder, adultery, lying, cheating, and stealing. Paul tells them what God wants is not strict adherence to a list of laws, but a pure heart, a good conscience, and a faith that isn't phony. So all you Christians that call yourselves Christians because you think it'll get your name in the Book of Life... don't be phony... be Saved!

That's the lesson we all need to learn from these texts. God doesn't want us arguing over who is "in" and who is "out." God wants us to love one another. It's God's task to judge us. It is NOT our task to judge one another. God is the judge... not mankind.

Question Two:
Are gays and lesbians on that list of sinners in the Jewish law that Paul quotes to make an entirely different point?

Greek scholars say that in first century the Greek word malaokois probably meant "effeminate call boys." The New Revised Standard Version says "male prostitutes."

"As for arsenokoitai, Greek scholars don't know exactly what it means -- and the fact that we don't know is a big part of this tragic debate. Some scholars believe Paul was coining a name to refer to the customers of "the effeminate call boys." We might call them "dirty old men." Others translate the word as "sodomites," but never explain what that means." -Mel White

Check this out!!!
In 1958, for the first time in history, a person translating that mysterious Greek word into English decided it meant homosexuals, even though there is, in fact, NO SUCH WORD in Greek or Hebrew. But that translator made the decision for all of us that placed the word homosexual in the English-language Bible for the very first time.

In the past, people used Paul's writings to support slavery, segregation, and apartheid. People still use Paul's writings to oppress women and limit their role in the home, in church, and in society.
Now we have to ask ourselves, "Is it happening again?" Is a word in Greek that has no clear definition being used to reflect society's prejudice and condemn God's gay children? :::shakes fist at the world:::

We all need to look more closely at that mysterious Greek word arsenokoitai in its original context. I find the argument from history that Paul is condemning the married men who hired hairless young boys (malakois) for sexual pleasure just as they hired smooth-skinned young girls for that purpose.
Responsible homosexuals and heterosexuals would join Paul in condemning ANYONE who uses children for sex, just as we would join anyone else in condemning the threatened gang rape in Sodom or the behavior of the sex-crazed priests and priestesses in Rome. These passages = lots about God... nothing about homosexuality.

WHEW! Not done yet! I told you... passion.

PREMISE SIX
The biblical authors are silent about homosexual orientation as we know it today. They neither approve it nor condemn it.

"But Matt Matt... what about the verses we just read?"

Oh you mean the verses that I have soulfully refuted with accurate evidence? Hmm... can't use those anymore.
We've looked closely at the six biblical texts used by some people to condemn homosexuality. But we must also remember that Jesus (LORD), the Jewish prophets, and even Paul never even comment on the responsible love a gay man or lesbian feels for another.
The Bible is completely silent on the issue of homosexual orientation. And no wonder!! Homosexual orientation wasn't even known until the 19th century.
The discovery that some of us are created and/or shaped in our earliest infancy toward same-gender attraction was made in the last 150 years. Biblical authors knew nothing about sexual orientation. Old Testament authors and Paul assumed all people were created heterosexual, just as they believed the earth was flat, that there were heavens above and hell below, and that the sun moved up and down. Galileo was put to death for trying to prove the Earth rotated. Check that out!
In 1864, almost 3,000 years after Moses and at least 18 centuries after the apostle Paul, the German social scientist Karl Heinrich Ulrichs was the first to declare that homosexuals were a distinct class of individuals. It was a big moment for all sexual minorities. It's like Columbus discovering the New World. It's like Madame Curie discovering radium used for Xrays. It's like Neil Armstrong walking on the moon. It may seem like one small step for the rest of you, but it's a giant leap for them. Ulrichs assured the world of what homosexuals already knew in their hearts. They aren't just heterosexuals choosing to perform same-sex behaviors. They are a whole class of people whose drive to same-sex intimacy is at the very core of their being from the very beginning of their lives.

The authors of the Bible are authorities in matters of faith. They can be trusted when they talk about God. But they should not be considered the final authorities on sexual orientation any more than they are the final authorities on space travel, gravity, or the Internet!!

Genesis 1 does not say "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth... and processors." Little joke to help us relax.

Since the writers of Scripture are not the final authorities on human sexuality, since they didn't even know about sexual orientation as we understand it today, since Jesus and the Jewish prophets were silent about any kind of same-sex behavior, I am persuaded that the Bible has nothing in it to approve or condemn homosexual orientation as we understand it.

PREMISE SEVEN (two more)
Although the prophets, Jesus, and other biblical authors say nothing about homosexual orientation as we understand it today, they are clear about one thing... As we search for Truth, we are to "love one another."

Thank God! "The truth will set you free"

Also take the time to look at my favorite verse... John 16:13.

We may not be able to use the Bible as our final authority on sexual orientation. But as we search for the truth, we can and should use the Bible as our final authority on how we should treat one another along the way.

I love this next part!!
A young Jewish scholar asked Jesus, "What is the greatest commandment?" Quoting the prophets, Jesus replied, "The great commandment is this... to love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and the second command is like it, to love your neighbor as you love yourself."
"This is my commandment," Jesus said, "that you love one another, as I have loved you." On this the Bible is explicitly clear. Even if we disagree about what the Bible seems to say about homosexuality, we can agree that above all else we are commanded by the Scriptures to love God and to love one another. Straight from the Gospel of Matthew.

Since God is the God of truth and since Jesus himself told us that the truth would set us free, one way that we love God and love one another is by seeking the truth about sexual orientation wherever we can find it.
There is a growing body of evidence from science, psychology, history, psychiatry, medicine, and hearing personal experiences that leads to a clear verdict: Homosexuality is neither a sickness nor a sin. Let's face it, the church has always been slow, if not the last institution on earth, to accept new truth.

Look up the stories of Galileo and Copernicus. All of which were admitted wrong later by Pope John Paul II. The Pope said something we must never forget: "Recent historical studies enable us to state that this sad misunderstanding now belongs to the past."

What if the biblical scholars of Galileo's day had said to Galileo, "We don't agree with your Copernican theories, but we love and trust you. As long as you love God and seek God's will in your life, you are welcome here." Think about that one haters!

Instead, well-intentioned (but wrong) Christians are driving their own children away from the church, using Scripture passages that may not even pertain to sexual orientation as we understand it.

FINAL PREMISE:
Whatever some people believe the Bible says about homosexuality, they must not use that belief to deny homosexuals their basic civil rights. To discriminate against sexual or gender minorities is unjust and un-American.

"But Matt Matt... I was raised to hate and discriminate."

Then you need to call out to God and ask Him to forgive you!
 
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Sinfonian333

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Please consider one last thing peoples. Although new to it, I love the Bible. I read God's Word in it and hear God's Word through it. But the United States is not a nation governed by the Bible. Our nation is governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Our laws were created to protect an individual's right to disagree. If the Bible (or someone's view of the Bible) replaces the Constitution as the law of the land, we undermine the great foundation upon which this country was built. I respect our Fore Fathers.

Can we support full civil rights for all... even if we disagree? Please?

You might disagree on the stance of homosexuality, but please be for equal civil rights. I hope you'll agree that we are family, all sisters and brothers of the same heavenly Parent. We may be different, but we can still live together in peace.

Since we did some Bible stuff... let's quote one of our nations governing documents... you may recognize it.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are CREATED EQUAL, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness..."
 
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Sinfonian333

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For some reasons the postings were out of order...

PREMISE FOUR:
The Bible is a book about God... not a book about human sexuality.

"But Matt Matt... God's law on human sexuality is IN the Bible."

Let's take a look at what else God says about sex.

The Bible is the story of God's love for the world and all the people in it. Rescuing, renewing, and empowering humankind. Certainly you will agree that it was never intended to be a book about human sexuality. In fact, the Bible accepts sexual practices that we condemn and condemns sexual practices that we accept. Lots of them! Here are a few examples, you can look up the verses yourselves... I'm not typing all that:

- DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
- DEUTERONOMY 22:22
If a married person has sex with someone else's husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
- MARK 10:1-12
Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
- LEVITICUS 18:19
The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman's period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
- MARK 12:18-27
If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
- DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy's genitals (or kicking him in the balls), her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.

I'm certain you don't agree with all of these teachings the Bible has about sex. The list goes on:

- Sex with a prostitute is acceptable for the husband but not for the wife
- Polygamy (more than one wife) is acceptable. Solomon, the wisest king of all, had over one thousand
- Slavery and sex with slaves
- Marriage of girls aged 11-13
- Treatment of women as property

The Bible also forbids:

- Interracial marriage
- Birth control
- Discussing or even NAMING a sexual organ
- Seeing one's parents nude... I'll give them that... I don't wanna see that

Over the centuries the Holy Spirit has taught us that certain Bible verses should not be understood as God's law for all time periods. Some verses are specific to the culture and time they were written, and are no longer viewed as appropriate, wise, or just.

Often, the Holy Spirit uses science to teach us why those ancient words no longer apply to our modern times. During the last three decades, for example, organizations representing 1.5 million U.S. health professionals (doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, counselors, and educators) have stated definitively that homosexual orientation is as natural as heterosexual orientation, that sexual orientation is determined by a combination of yet unknown pre- and post-natal influences, and that it is dangerous and inappropriate to tell a homosexual that he or she could or should attempt to change his or her sexual orientation.

"Homosexuality is not a mental disorder and thus there is no need for a cure." - The American Psychological Association

While there are some people now living in heterosexual marriages who once perceived themselves to be gay, there are millions of gay and lesbian persons who have accepted their sexual orientation as a gift from God and live productive and deeply spiritual lives. The evidence from science and from the personal experience of knowing gay and lesbian Christians demands that we at least consider whether the passages cited to condemn homosexual behavior should be reconsidered, just as other Bible verses that speak of certain sexual practices are no longer understood as God's law for us in this day.

PREMISE FIVE:
We're missing what these passages say about God when we spend so much time debating what they say about sex.

"But Matt Matt... what are the six passages used by people to argue thsi issue?"

Well I'm glad you asked. If the Bible is the story of God's love for the world and not a handbook about sex, then that should shape how we read the Scriptures. So as we take a look at the six biblical texts that are used by some people to condemn homosexuality, let's ask two questions about each of them. And let's stay even and ask both sides of the issue:

Question One:
What does the text say about God that we need to hear but might be missing?

Question Two:
What might the text be saying about homosexuality?

PASSAGE 1
GENESIS 2:21-25
THE CREATION STORY

Question One:
Once again, I'm tired of seeing all these pickets, shirts, signs, bumper stickers, posts, and blogs saying "it's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve." In fact, the creation story is as important to Adam and Steve as it is Adam and Eve. Gays and non-gays alike need to know and celebrate the truth at the center of this story.

This creation story is primarily about God, a story written to show the power of God who created the world and everything in it. It teaches us that ultimately God is our Creator, that God shaped us, and that God said, "It's good." Isn't this the heart of the text?

Question Two:

Because the text says it is "natural" that a man and a woman come together to create a new life, some people think this means gay or lesbian couples are "unnatural." They read this interpretation into the text, even though the text is silent about all kinds of relationships that don't lead to having children:

- Couples who are unable to have children
- Couples who are too old to have children
- Couples who choose not to have children
- People who are single

Are these relationships (or lack of relationships) "unnatural"? There's nothing said here that condemns or approves the love that people of the same sex have for each other. So I believe the creation story says a lot about God's power and presence in the universe... but nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today.

PASSAGE 2
GENESIS 19:1-14
THE STORY OF SODOM

Question One:

Ever heard anybody called a homosexual a Sodomite? THAT'S HILARIOUS. They're not from Sodom... they can't be. That city was buried beneath the Dead Sea centuries ago. Once again, this story is not primarily about sex. It is primarily about God. Some people say the city of Sodom was destroyed because it was overrun by sexually obsessed homosexuals. In fact, the city of Sodom had been doomed to destruction long before. So what is this passage really about?

Jesus and five Old Testament prophets all speak of the sins that led to the destruction of Sodom... and not one of them mentions homosexuality. Even Billy Graham, a famous spiritual adviser to multiple U.S. Presidents, doesn't mention homosexuality when he preaches on Sodom.

Ezekiel 16:48-49 tell us: "This is the sin of Sodom; she and her suburbs had pride, excess of food, and prosperous ease, but did not help or encourage the poor and needy. They were arrogant and this was abominable in God's eyes."

Let's all remember that we break God's heart when we spend all the money we earn on ourselves, when we forget (or avoid) to help the poor and hungry, and when we refuse to do justice or show mercy. When the term Sodomite is used in this way, we can say that many homosexuals AND heterosexuals are Sodomites... greedy, unjust, unfair, unforgiving, and unhelpful. While there are millions that are hungry, homeless, and sick... these "Sodomites" build bigger homes, buy bigger cars, and own more property. They put put all their trust in safe stock portfolios and secure retirement accounts... and not in the LORD!

Whatever teaching about sexuality you might get out of this passage, be sure to hear this central, primary truth about God as well. God has called us do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our Creator. Sodom was destroyed because its people didn't take God seriously about caring for the poor, the hungry, the homeless, or the outcast.

Question Two:
That's easy... nothing.

It was common for soldiers, thieves, and bullies to rape a fallen enemy, finalizing their victory by dehumanizing and demeaning their defeated, yet innocent, opponents. This act of raping an enemy is about power and revenge, not about homosexuality or homosexual orientation. And it is still happening. Spread the word of love... not hate! Go ahead a Google the case of Abner Louima.

The sexual act that occurs in Sodom is a gang rape and homosexuals oppose gang rape as much as anyone else.

PASSAGE 3
LEVITICUS 18:22 AND 20:13
THE HOLINESS CODE

Question One:
Leviticus 18:6 reads: "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female. It is an abomination."

A similar verse occurs two chapters later, in Leviticus 20:13: "A man who sleeps with another man is an abomination and should be executed."

At first these words could leave you feeling uneasy, especially if you are gay. But below the surface, it has a deeper truth about God... and nothing to do with sex.

Leviticus is a holiness code written 3,000 years ago. This code includes many of the outdated sexual laws we mentioned earlier, and a lot more. It also includes prohibitions against round haircuts, tattoos, working on the Sabbath, wearing garments of mixed fabrics, eating pork or shellfish, getting your fortune told, and even playing with the skin of a pig. Well... there goes football.

"Matt Matt... what's a Holiness Code?"

It's a list of behaviors that people of faith find offensive in a certain place and time. In this case, the code was written for priests only, and its primary intent was to set the priests of Israel over and against priests of other cultures.

There are holiness codes that all kinds of Christian denominations sign that forbid the following:

- Smoking
- Drinking
- Chewing Tobacco
- Dancing

Just to name a few. That means that if they sign this, when they get to high school they get to miss out on their Senior Prom because they can't dance at it. Sad! And I was going to keep this to myself, but isn't there a significant Christian hero who drank WINE at the last supper? Hmm... Jesus anyone?

I did find one thing using this whole Hebrew/Greek thing though. This word "abomination" that comes up in both verses. Abomination in Hebrew is TO-EBAH and are behaviors that people in a certain time and place considered tasteless or offensive. To the Jews an abomination was not a law, not something evil like rape or murder forbidden by the Ten Commandments. It was a common behavior by non-Jews that Jews thought was displeasing to God.

However, Jesus and Paul both said the holiness code in Leviticus does not pertain to Christian believers. Nevertheless, there are still people who pull the two verses about men sleeping together from this ancient holiness code to say that the Bible seems to condemn homosexuality.

But wait!!
Even if the old holiness codes no longer apply to us as Christians, it's important to remember that in every age, people of faith are responsible for setting moral and ethical standards that honor God. But we people of faith must be very careful not to allow our own prejudices to determine what those standards should be.

Instead of selecting one item from an ancient Jewish holiness code and using it to condemn sexual or gender minorities, let's talk together about setting sexual standards that please God... standards appropriate for heterosexuals and homosexuals alike, standards based on loving concern, health, and wholeness for ourselves and for others.

Question Two:
I'm convinced those passages say nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today. Here's why. Consider this single Bible passage that was used for centuries to condemn masturbation. That's right men... masturbation:

"He spilled his seed on the ground... And the thing which Onan did displeased the Lord: wherefore he slew him also" (Genesis 38:9-10).

For Jewish writers of Scripture, a man sleeping with another man was an abomination. But it was also an abomination (and one worthy of death) to touch or even to interrupt coitus (to stop having sex with your spouse before [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] as an act of birth control). Why were these sexual practices considered abominations by Scripture writers in these ancient times?

Because the Hebrew (pre-scientific) understanding was that the male sperm contained the whole of life. With no knowledge of eggs and ovulation, it was assumed that the man's sperm contained the whole child and that the woman provided only the incubation space. Therefore, the spilling of sperm without possibility of having a child was considered murder. BOOM!

The Jews were a small tribe struggling to populate a country. They were outnumbered by their enemy. I'm sure you can see why these ancient people felt it was an abomination to risk "wasting" even a single child. But the passage says nothing about homosexuality as we understand it today. BOOM again!

We've looked at the passages in the Hebrew Scriptures that are used (or misused) by some people to condemn sexual minorities. Now let's look at three verses from the letters of the apostle Paul in the Christian Scriptures that are used the same way. Remember: First, we'll ask what the text says about God (Question One); second, we'll consider what it may or may not say about sexual orientation (Question Two).
 
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Bro.T

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Please consider one last thing peoples. Although new to it, I love the Bible. I read God's Word in it and hear God's Word through it. But the United States is not a nation governed by the Bible. Our nation is governed by the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Our laws were created to protect an individual's right to disagree. If the Bible (or someone's view of the Bible) replaces the Constitution as the law of the land, we undermine the great foundation upon which this country was built. I respect our Fore Fathers.

Can we support full civil rights for all... even if we disagree? Please?

You might disagree on the stance of homosexuality, but please be for equal civil rights. I hope you'll agree that we are family, all sisters and brothers of the same heavenly Parent. We may be different, but we can still live together in peace.

Since we did some Bible stuff... let's quote one of our nations governing documents... you may recognize it.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are CREATED EQUAL, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness..."

Well to be totally honest, I disagree and I see you have a lot to learn about God. I'm not trying to put you down or anything, but some of your word frasing, such as homosexual christians, theres no such thing.

Understand this..... The thing that hath been, it is that which shall be; and that which is done is that which shall be done: and there is no new thing under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 1:9)

Revelation 21

21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Now this is actually going into the father's kingdom, this is the second resurrection also the second death, those who get in and those who are not.

Lets go into leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isaiah 8:20)

People that trangress against God laws are not going to get in the kingdom. Look, Homosexual is more than a sin, its abomination, so if sinners are not going to get in the kingdom, then Homosexual don't have a chance, unlest they repent and clean up their act, and that goes for everybody that transgress against the law that repent.

Isaiah 66...... (this the future brother and sisters)

66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. (1John 3:4)

Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.(Revlation 22:14)

peace in jesus name
 
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JasonX43

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I'm not supposed to be here because I am fasting and giving up things that have dominated my life because I am about to begin recording music for The Lord, but The Holy Spirit made me feel that it was okay to share something with all of you in this thread: Homosexuality IS an abomination to The Lord. I didn't come to this conclusion by reading scripture. I didn't come to this conclusion out of my own opinion. I came to this conclusion out of vigilant prayer and I got this answer directly from God Himself:

Look at the planet. Look at the way I've molded this planet to sustain life. You breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide. Plants breathe in carbon dioxide and breathe out air. Everything on this planet has a purpose and a job to do to continue life. Even the angels here in Heaven a job and a purpose to fulfill.

Now look at Lucifer. Look at why I cast him out of Heaven. He had become so full of himself that he thought he was better than me and corrupted angels into following his delusions of grandeur. Instead of making beautiful music in worship of me, he felt that he should rule in my stead. HE REFUSED TO DO HIS JOB!

Now look at sex. Look at my purpose for it. My wedding gift to men and women so that they may know the same joy that I felt when I created man. And although Adam and Eve's transgression forced me to punish them, I still made the coupling of man and woman a pleasurable experience for both. But look at how mankind has perverted my wedding gift! They've made it a spectacle for entertainment, seeking the pleasure of it alone and not the creation of new life! For as written in my word, there are no new things under the sun, and surely as Lucifer refused to do his job here in Heaven, any man or woman that enjoys the pleasure of sex without truly becoming one in the flesh shall also be denied access to the place I am preparing for you! So says The Lord, your God!

You can accept this, you can flame me, I don't care. I probably won't see this thread again until Friday night or Saturday morning. All I know is that in my confusion, I sought The Lord and this is the answer He gave me. And I'll share one more thing with you about all the people that died for homosexuality that some of you want to lift up:

Matthew 8:21-22

21Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."
22But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
 
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MinJeremiah

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I am seeing a little extreme commits on all this. Maybe I can bring some true scriptural balance to all this.

Homosexuals will not get in heaven. I don't need to quote scripture on this do I? Clearly both the New Testament and Old Testament reveal this. I did not say if you have committed homosexual acts you won't get into heaven. That is another extreme. God will forgive sinful acts of all kind. God loves everyone. Jesus paid the price for every sin.

If you have committed homosexual sins you can get to heaven through confessing the sin and receiving forgiveness (I Jn 1:9). This applies to the believer. You cannot be a homosexual and a Christian at the same time. That is a oxymoron. It is impossible. You can be a Christian who has committed homosexuality. (Forget what the socialism teaches, I'm teaching Bible). It is not the act, but the practice of sin that is the problem. The practice of sin comes from having a sinful nature in you. This is what makes you a sinner. The argument that the homosexual will go to heaven on the basis that we are all sinners crumbles on the fact that we are not all sinners. We were sinners, but if you have been born-again you are not. That is why it is called the new birth. Your spirit now has eternal life, which is the nature of God, in it. God's nature has no sin. God's nature is against homosexuality. This is why a true Christian cannot be a homosexual.

How many have gotten into error is by thinking that if someone commits a homosexual act, they are a homosexual. This is wrong. If I try smoking a cigarette am I smoker? No, not unless I continue in it. What if I did continue for five years but then quit and never smoke again, am I still a smoker? No, because I don't PRACTICE smoking.

You could have been a homosexual for years, but if you accept salvation you are cleansed and your nature is changed. You, the real you, the spirit man will no longer want to commit homosexual acts. There flesh might want to because of a unrenewed mind, but not there human spirit. They may even stumble with that same sin and if they commit it God will forgive them.

If you do no accept Christ as Lord you cannot enter into heaven. I amazes me how many so called Christians believe differently. Read your bible; this is fundamental doctrine. A little child could comprehend that easily when reading the scriptures. They don't have to be taught it because it is so plain. It is not judging by affirming what the Bible already clearly says. That is call affirmation. It is not self righteousness to say homosexuals will not get into heaven. The bible said that. It would be wrong for me to say they are the only group not getting in. It would be wrong to say God doesn't love them and that they can't be forgiven. Salvation is available to everyone here on earth.

I said all this to say homosexual will not get into heaven. Only born-again Christians get into heaven. If a homosexual receives the new birth they are no longer a homosexual and go to heaven also. If a Christian commits a homosexual act, they can be forgiven by confessing the sin and getting it out of there life. Real Christian don't look for excuses to sin, but try to stay out of sin.
 
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MinJeremiah

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Sinfonian by looking at your bio I can see that socialist view of the Bible. Your thesis also shows this.

Brother, in love, that's all bunch hog wash. You are way off in the deep end. Your premises on crazy. No offense but you need to put away every book you have read, forget every discovery channel documentary you have saw, and reread you Bible like you never read one before.

Whats up with this:
- Sex with a prostitute is acceptable for the husband but not for the wife
- Polygamy (more than one wife) is acceptable. Solomon, the wisest king of all, had over one thousand
- Slavery and sex with slaves
- Marriage of girls aged 11-13
- Treatment of women as property

The Bible also forbids:

- Interracial marriage
- Birth control
- Discussing or even NAMING a sexual organ

What Bible have you been reading?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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What will happen to that town whose ex-mayer just came out,
paid for an ad in the newspaper? to disclose he is gay....(an abomination!)..
..
but the town knows not and cares not for Scripture, for the Creator, Yhvh.
..
the townspeople on tv smiled and said "oh, I'm glad for you.."(yuck yuck)..
instead
of saying "turn to Yhvh, for His Kingdom is at hand"... (i.e., repent)
..
if society is(as it has been in the past) so perverted that it considers sin okay,
what
will the Judge of everything and everyone do ?
 
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Bro.T

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I'm not supposed to be here because I am fasting and giving up things that have dominated my life because I am about to begin recording music for The Lord, but The Holy Spirit made me feel that it was okay to share something with all of you in this thread: Homosexuality IS an abomination to The Lord. I didn't come to this conclusion by reading scripture. I didn't come to this conclusion out of my own opinion. I came to this conclusion out of vigilant prayer and I got this answer directly from God Himself:

Look at the planet. Look at the way I've molded this planet to sustain life. You breathe in oxygen and breathe out carbon dioxide. Plants breathe in carbon dioxide and breathe out air. Everything on this planet has a purpose and a job to do to continue life. Even the angels here in Heaven a job and a purpose to fulfill.

Now look at Lucifer. Look at why I cast him out of Heaven. He had become so full of himself that he thought he was better than me and corrupted angels into following his delusions of grandeur. Instead of making beautiful music in worship of me, he felt that he should rule in my stead. HE REFUSED TO DO HIS JOB!

Now look at sex. Look at my purpose for it. My wedding gift to men and women so that they may know the same joy that I felt when I created man. And although Adam and Eve's transgression forced me to punish them, I still made the coupling of man and woman a pleasurable experience for both. But look at how mankind has perverted my wedding gift! They've made it a spectacle for entertainment, seeking the pleasure of it alone and not the creation of new life! For as written in my word, there are no new things under the sun, and surely as Lucifer refused to do his job here in Heaven, any man or woman that enjoys the pleasure of sex without truly becoming one in the flesh shall also be denied access to the place I am preparing for you! So says The Lord, your God!

You can accept this, you can flame me, I don't care. I probably won't see this thread again until Friday night or Saturday morning. All I know is that in my confusion, I sought The Lord and this is the answer He gave me. And I'll share one more thing with you about all the people that died for homosexuality that some of you want to lift up:

Matthew 8:21-22

21Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."
22But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
Praise the lord

thats some good understanding

peace in jesus name
 
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Bro.T

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"Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, "repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts1:36-38).

If we truly love God, then we will obey "[FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman][FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]Every word[/FONT][/FONT]" that proceeds out of his mouth. Baptism is one of those words. In order to be baptized, certain events must take place: You must give up a lifestyle where sin has dominion, (ruler ship) over you. Sin according to 1 John 3:4, is the transgression (breaking) of the law. You must be taught "The Word", before you can adhere to God's commandments (judgments\statues). These laws are found in the Holy Bible; beginning with Genesis and ending with Revelation. You must believe what the bible says and finally, you must confess that Jesus is Lord. Once this has been accomplished, you are qualified to be baptized.

"And he said unto them, go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16:15-16).

Listen people! Baptism is a commandment or requirement for salvation. To reject baptism is death; so, why will you die? Every soul that is baptized honors God and every soul that rejects baptism dishonors God.

"And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him." (Luke 7:29-30).

Brother and Sisters, if you are in a position to be baptized, why reject the counsel of God? Rejecting God's counsel will get you eternal life in the burning flames (lake of fire) with the scribes and Pharisees.

"For I say unto you, that except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, Ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5: 20).

Anyone that is not baptized is a person with their sins yet upon them, because it is the baptism that washes away our past sins.

"And now why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16):
 
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LovebirdsFlying

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where does the bible forbid interracial marriage?

The tribes of Israel were told not to intermarry. (Nehemiah 13:27-NIV "Must we hear now that you too are doing all this terrible wickedness and are being unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women?" among others.) Some apply the principle (wrongly) by extension, and say that we are not supposed to marry outside our race or nationality.

In reality, even Ruth was a Moabitess, and she was allowed to marry into Israel because she accepted YHVH as God. It was for religious reasons, not racial, that Israel was not to marry the indigenous people.

But some use any old excuse for racism. Unfortunately.
 
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The tribes of Israel were told not to intermarry. (Nehemiah 13:27-NIV "Must we hear now that you too are doing all this terrible wickedness and are being unfaithful to our God by marrying foreign women?" among others.) Some apply the principle (wrongly) by extension, and say that we are not supposed to marry outside our race or nationality.

In reality, even Ruth was a Moabitess, and she was allowed to marry into Israel because she accepted YHVH as God. It was for religious reasons, not racial, that Israel was not to marry the indigenous people.

But some use any old excuse for racism. Unfortunately.

Thats right, good understanding
 
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