Homosexuality

[Ohioprof]

Says who? You?

What's your source of information?

My source of information is that I am gay, and I know more about myself than you know about me.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

I spent a good year modding this very forum and my experience is that when threads not about sins that do not concern homosexuality or abortion are started they are generally ignored by the very people who feel compelled to rail against the abominable sins which pretty much just includes homosexuality and abortion.

I'm sure you have a point, but the starting ground for the majority of the debates here rely on that one side is claiming that a certain action is not in sin, while others are defending against that claim.

No, not really. Texts have been written about the Word of God, sure, but they are human literary products...

So how many times did Christ say "it is written"? He used scripture as His guide, so what is the big deal?

I think the only sound way of applying exegesis to any book in the Bible is through Christ. All laws should be looked at through Jesus' teaching here, IMO:

[bible]Matthew 22:37-40[/bible]

Can we look at all sins through the law of love.

Does love, truly, cover a multitude of sins?

[bible]1 Peter 4:8[/bible]

To love God with all you have also means recognizing and complying with His rules.

And correction (rebuke) is an act of love, although it often moves past into personal attacks.


I can love and respect anyone, regardless of where/what they come from. This does not mean I agree with what they preach, and if they preach(teach) something that I know is against scripture, then I am compelled to bring the truth to light. I try to accomplish this in a inobtrusive and loving way, since the issue is not about the person at all, but about the thought. My biggest concern is that by someone teaching that which is false about God that not only does it lead them, but others astray. I don't do this to be right, because I've been corrected many times, and sure I will be corrected many more, I do it out of love for God and His creation.

 

[Ohioprof]

Those who follow as well as teach the ways of the Lord,
do not have to wear a "label", as it is our identity.

Homosexual is the identity of homosexuals. They are the only
sinners whose sin is acceptable to God according to them.

Homosexuals are clearly NOT following Jesus Christ, the Son of the
Living God. My God says homosexuality is detestable in His sight.
He has spoken and history proves it as recorded in His Word.
God will judge the earth. Jesus is returning with judgment in His hands.
He ascended into heaven when He was resurrected, the Lamb of God,
but He is returning KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS as recorded
in His Word.

That's my source of information, what is yours?

Some people simply assume that who we are is a sin. God does not make mistakes. He made some of us gay. To suggest that we sin by being ourselves is to suggest that God made a mistake.

 

[Ohioprof]

I'm sure you have a point, but the starting ground for the majority of the debates here rely on that one side is claiming that a certain action is not in sin, while others are defending against that claim.





So how many times did Christ say "it is written"? He used scripture as His guide, so what is the big deal?

To love God with all you have also means recognizing and complying with His rules.

And correction (rebuke) is an act of love, although it often moves past into personal attacks.


I can love and respect anyone, regardless of where/what they come from. This does not mean I agree with what they preach, and if they preach(teach) something that I know is against scripture, then I am compelled to bring the truth to light. I try to accomplish this in a inobtrusive and loving way, since the issue is not about the person at all, but about the thought. My biggest concern is that by someone teaching that which is false about God that not only does it lead them, but others astray. I don't do this to be right, because I've been corrected many times, and sure I will be corrected many more, I do it out of love for God and His creation.

If the rules you follow are what you read in the Bible, then there is no rule against same-sex marriage. Because it is never mentioned in the Bible.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Now that Messiah has come, mercy and grace is afforded to each of us.
It is God's will that none should perish, but that ALL would come to repentance which is why the Lord is long suffering toward each of us.
2 Peter 3:9

Whether or not you should be stoned, is beside the apparent attitude,the Lord has toward the sexual sins we commit with our bodies,
ie', sodomy, fornication, adultery, beastiality.

People who habitually lie will not enter the kingdom either. The thing is though, when was the last time you saw a Liar's Parade?

If you are bringing up mixed fabric etc, then you have not the Spirit of God within you, as those are rebuttals of those who don't know the Word of God. Those who have the Holy Spirit within them,
study and show themselves approved, workmen unto God, who need not to be ashamed because they rightly divide the word of truth.
2 Timothy 2:15

Not to mention I am sure you have said that 100 times, and people have already taught you front he Word regarding it, and you have chosen to ignore that the ceremonial laws were
only forshadowings of Messiah's coming and valid only until Messiah came.

It is still wise however, not to eat shellfish, they are scavengers whose shell, where the meat is, is also their septic tank.

It is also not good to mix fabrics, if you want good quality. Nor is it good to put a new piece of cotton fabric on an old pair of jeans for a patch, because when it shrinks, it will create a bigger hole than was their originally. It should be preshrunk first.

Just saying.....

So should we reinstate the commandment to stone homosexuals?

How about shutting down all factories that make mixed fabric clothing?




People have ensured that we have a message.

Some claim it was inspired by God. Regardless, though, the Bible is not God nor is it the logos of God. At best, you can claim that we can experience the logos or presence of God by reading scripture and that is brought about through the presence of the Holy Spirit not some magical inerrant writings in a book.




First.

There is no such monolith as "Judeo-Christian ethics".

Second, there are a great many laws that are not based upon commandments in the Bible and I think that is a very good thing.

I'm sure you would like to resurrect public stonings but thankfully we have moved beyond that type of draconian brutality.




So you don't like all the commandments in "God's Word" then?

You just go ahead and select the ones that you would like to see enforced such as homosexuality and wear your mixed fabric clothing and eat your shrimp to your heart's content

 

[IamRedeemed]

No, some people acknowledge that God is God, and others are a "god" unto themselves.

Homosexual is not who you are. It just happens to be the stronghold that has you captive.

We are all born sinners. God made a way for us
all to be delivered and saved. Jesus Christ shed enough blood to cover a multitude of sins. And the same Holy Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, will resurrect our dead consciences and make them alive to and able to understand the Word of God, removing the scales from our eyes that keep us blind. He is able to deliver the captives and make them free.

Some people simply assume that who we are is a sin. God does not make mistakes. He made some of us gay. To suggest that we sin by being ourselves is to suggest that God made a mistake.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Same sex-sexual behavior is clearly condemned, Biblically. "Homosexual Marriage" is an erroneous concept, because it assumes that same-sex sexual behavior is sanctioned in the eyes of God, which it is not, but rather forbidden and condemned, therefore since the sexual behavior is condemned by God, in both Scripture which speaks of it in the past, present and future tenses combined with the fact that God has historically judged it with an iron fist, the concept of "Homosexual Marriage" from a Christian standpoint is clearly absurd.

If the rules you follow are what you read in the Bible, then there is no rule against same-sex marriage. Because it is never mentioned in the Bible.

 

[Ohioprof]

Same sex-sexual behavior is clearly condemned, Biblically. "Homosexual Marriage" is an erroneous concept, because it assumes that same-sex sexual behavior is sanctioned in the eyes of God, which it is not, but rather forbidden and condemned, therefore since the sexual behavior is condemned by God, in both Scripture which speaks of it in the past, present and future tenses combined with the fact that God has historically judged it with an iron fist, the concept of "Homosexual Marriage" from a Christian standpoint is clearly absurd.

That's a big leap of interpretation on your part. You go from arguing that God condemns same-sex sex, which is not at all clear in the Bible, to the argument that God condemns same-sex marriage. But same-sex marriage is nowhere mentioned in the Bible. You are making a giant leap in your attempt to argue that God condemns same-sex marriage. You are equating sex with marriage, and they are not the same thing.

I don't believe the Bible is the word of God. Those who do believe that it is the word of God must acknowledge that the Bible never mentions same-sex marriage. To argue that God condemns same-sex marriage is a big leap of interpretation, based on nothing at all.

 

[Ohioprof]

No, some people acknowledge that God is God, and others are a "god" unto themselves.

Homosexual is not who you are. It just happens to be the stronghold that has you captive.

We are all born sinners. God made a way for us
all to be delivered and saved. Jesus Christ shed enough blood to cover a multitude of sins. And the same Holy Spirit that raised Christ from the dead, will resurrect our dead consciences and make them alive to and able to understand the Word of God, removing the scales from our eyes that keep us blind. He is able to deliver the captives and make them free.

Since you don't know me, it's not up to you to tell me who I am or who I am not. I will tell YOU who I am. Do you understand?

I am gay. That is part of who I am. I am a woman. That is also part of who I am. I am ashamed of neither of these characteristics. They are gifts from God, and they are part of what makes me me. I affirm and celebrate all of how God made me, and that includes being gay.

 

[IamRedeemed]

Your competition is not with me. I do not have to know you at all,
to know what is written in the Word of God and know that your
testimony opposes not only what is written, but what God has confirmed
through judgments He has carried out in history. You are contending with God
who has condemned homosexual behavior and has spoken
that the practice is abominable and detestable in His sight and
not only historically has judged it with an iron fist, has also proclaimed
that His mind has not changed and will not change and has judged already
that those who practice it will not enter His Kingdom.

I didn't ask you what your source of information is
for the reason that you practice homosexuality. I asked you what your source
is that has the power and authority to override what God has spoken and
holy men of God who were moved by the Holy Spirit wrote in the Christian
text known worldwide as the Holy Scriptures, and applies to all men, except
homosexuals?

My source of information is that I am gay, and I know more about myself than you know about me.

 

[Ohioprof]

Your competition is not with me. I do not have to know you at all,
to know what is written in the Word of God and know that your
testimony opposes not only what is written, but what God has confirmed
through judgments He has carried out in history. You are contending with God
who has condemned homosexual behavior and has spoken
that the practice is abominable and detestable in His sight and
not only historically has judged it with an iron fist, has also proclaimed
that His mind has not changed and will not change and has judged already
that those who practice it will not enter His Kingdom.

I didn't ask you what your source of information is
for the reason that you practice homosexuality. I asked you what your source
is that has the power and authority to override what God has spoken and
holy men of God who were moved by the Holy Spirit wrote in the Christian
text known worldwide as the Holy Scriptures, and applies to all men, except
homosexuals?

You have no idea whether I "practice homosexuality" or not. You are making an assumption about me based on zero knowledge of me. I have told you that I am a gay person. That tells you nothing about what I "practice."

The source of my authority to speak about myself is the fact that I AM myself. You have never even met me. Presuming to judge me by claiming to speak for God is not authority. It's just presumption.

I am not disagreeing with God. I am disagreeing with you.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Some claim it was inspired by God. Regardless, though, the Bible is not God nor is it the logos of God. At best, you can claim that we can experience the logos or presence of God by reading scripture and that is brought about through the presence of the Holy Spirit not some magical inerrant writings in a book.

The bible is the logos of God. Jesus is the Logos.

We experience the presence of God in His Holy Spirit.

I have never ever considered God's word magic--maybe you are thinking thsese things by the taint of this type of thread on your thinking.

I do believe your discernment is quite a bit off there!

 

[stumpjumper]

The bible is the logos of God. Jesus is the Logos.

There is absolutely no distinction in Greek between logos and Logos.

What you are doing is conflating the Bible with God.

The logos of God became flesh and dwelt among (or so the Bible says) and was crucified on a cross.

If you crucify the Bible, all you get is a collection of books with a bunch of holes in it...

Calling the Bible the logos of God is Bibliolatry.

We experience the presence of God in His Holy Spirit.

Indeed.

We don't need the Holy Spirit to read the Bible, though. Are you going to say that every time an atheist reads the Bible they are doing so because God's Spirit is present within them?

In Koine Greek, scripture, which makes up the Bible, is graphe while the Word of God is Logos.

The Bible is never, ever called the Word/Logos of God within the Bible. The Logos of God can not only be experienced in the Incarnation as we can experience God's Word through prayer and meditating on scripture but scripture itself is not the Word of God.

It is graphe so says the Bible...

 

[stumpjumper]

I'm sure you have a point, but the starting ground for the majority of the debates here rely on that one side is claiming that a certain action is not in sin, while others are defending against that claim.

My experience has generally been that more threads are started by those who are out to condemn homosexuality but there are some from the opposite side as well.

So how many times did Christ say "it is written"? He used scripture as His guide, so what is the big deal?

It's fine to use scripture as a guide but conflating logos and graphe can be troubling.

To love God with all you have also means recognizing and complying with His rules.

Perhaps.

But, what are "His rules"? You have a serious problem here regardless of whether or not you claim to use the Bible as the sole source of moral truths.

The Bible is not exhaustive and is culturally conditioned. You have already stated that, thankfully, we have moved past stoning others. Yet, the Bible commands stonings for certain actions.

Are we not, then, disobeying God's rules by not stoning certain people for certain offenses?

This is the crux of the issue here in that nobody in todays society can follow all of God's rules in the Bible or else they would end up in jail. Let alone the fact that many commandments are contradictory.

Is divorce disallowed outright or only in cases of adultery?

And correction (rebuke) is an act of love, although it often moves past into personal attacks.

Yet I don't see a great many rebukes against divorcees by Christians. In fact, Christians have just as high a divorce rate as non-Christians even though Jesus spoke out very strongly against divorce and only ever mentioned sexual immorality once and never, specifically, homosexuality.

All the NT proof texts against homosexuality come from Paul...

I can love and respect anyone, regardless of where/what they come from. This does not mean I agree with what they preach, and if they preach(teach) something that I know is against scripture, then I am compelled to bring the truth to light.

Well, then, will you join the next Christian protest against Red Lobster?

 

[Floatingaxe]

There is absolutely no distinction in Greek between logos and Logos.

What you are doing is conflating the Bible with God.

The logos of God became flesh and dwelt among (or so the Bible says) and was crucified on a cross.

If you crucify the Bible, all you get is a collection of books with a bunch of holes in it...

Calling the Bible the logos of God is Bibliolatry.



Indeed.

We don't need the Holy Spirit to read the Bible, though. Are you going to say that every time an atheist reads the Bible they are doing so because God's Spirit is present within them?

In Koine Greek, scripture, which makes up the Bible, is graphe while the Word of God is Logos.

The Bible is never, ever called the Word/Logos of God within the Bible. The Logos of God can not only be experienced in the Incarnation as we can experience God's Word through prayer and meditating on scripture but scripture itself is not the Word of God.

It is graphe so says the Bible...

logos=word=written word of God

Logos=Word=Jesus Christ. Logos is one of His names.

Get it? Scholars teach it!

You are purposely misconstruing what I say--for what reason? To dredge up strife? Probably.

The Holy Spirit is only on those who are Christ's and those of Christ read the word of God regularly for spiritual nourishment. The Holy Spirit reveals to the reader the truth. His spoken word o us is Rhema.

Atheists may recieve the truth and the Holy spirit may move them when they read the Scriptures, but He isn't in them.

 

[IamRedeemed]

How would I have no idea? Have you not claimed
repeatedly that you are "married" to a woman and are a woman?

Are you claiming that you are not romantically involved with each
other and that you are both celibate?

If so, why would you make references again and again to your
"loving monogamous relationship"?

So, again I ask you directly are you claiming that you are not
romantically involved with each other and that you are both celibate?

I never asked you what the source of authority
was to speak about yourself. I asked what the source of authority
is that you use to usurp the authority of God by claiming that
homosexual behavior is not sin.

You have no idea whether I "practice homosexuality" or not. You are making an assumption about me based on zero knowledge of me. I have told you that I am a gay person. That tells you nothing about what I "practice."

The source of my authority to speak about myself is the fact that I AM myself. You have never even met me. Presuming to judge me by claiming to speak for God is not authority. It's just presumption.

I am not disagreeing with God. I am disagreeing with you.

 

[Floatingaxe]

In the New Testament, the Greek words logos and rhema are both translated word. However, they are not synonyms for the same idea, but each have precise Biblical meanings, as do all words in Scripture. Logos is generally used to refer to the totality of the Word of God as well as the person of Jesus Christ, Who is the living Logos. The following references illustrate this: “The seed is the Word [logos] of God” (Luke 8:11). “Holding forth the word [logos] of life” (Philippians 2:16). “Rightly dividing the word [logos] of truth” (II Timothy 2:15). “For the word [logos] of God is quick, and powerful” (Hebrews 4:12). “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word [logos] of God” (I Peter 1:23). “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word [logikos, from logos], that ye may grow thereby” (I Peter 2:2).
Scripture generally uses the Greek word rhema to refer to the spoken word given by a living voice and is used to describe particular messages that were given to individuals for their personal application. The following passages are examples of this:

• Jesus told Peter he would deny Him—“Peter remembered the word [rhema] of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice” (Matthew 26:75).
• The angel told Mary that she would have a child—“Mary said, Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word [rhema]” (Luke 1:38).
• Simeon was told he would see Christ before he died—“Now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word [rhema]” (Luke 2:29).
• God gave John the message he was to preach as a forerunner to Christ—“The word [rhema] of God came unto John” (Luke 3:2).
• Jesus told Peter where to cast his nets—“Master, we have toiled all the night, and have taken nothing: nevertheless at thy word [rhema] I will let down the net” (Luke 5:5).
• God reminded Peter of His Word—“Then remembered I the word [rhema] of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost” (Acts 11:16).

Those who hear the Gospel receive a special message from the Holy Spirit, for no man can call Jesus Lord, but by the Holy Spirit. “No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost” (I Corinthians 12:3). Therefore, it is appropriate for the message of salvation to be a rhema. “The word [rhema] is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word [rhema] of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved…. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word [rhema] of God” (Romans 10:8–9, 17; see also Acts 5:20).
Rhemas are not separate from Scripture, but a part of the whole of God’s Word. Every word of God is inspired, and “all scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness” (II Timothy 3:16). It is the Holy Spirit Who illuminates particular Scriptures for application in a daily walk with the Lord.
The words of Jesus are significant on this point. “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word [rhema] that proceedeth out of the mouth of God” (Matthew 4:4). Jesus also stated, “The words [rhema] that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life” (John 6:63).
This understanding of rhema has allowed me to apply the promise of John 15:7–8 and experience marvelous results from it. “If ye abide in me, and my words [rhema] abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.”
Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words states the following on page 683. “The significance of rhema (as distinct from logos) is exemplified in the injunction to take ‘the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God,’ (Eph. 6:17); here, the reference is not to the whole Bible as such, but to the individual scripture which the Spirit brings to our remembrance for use in time of need, a prerequisite being the regular storing of the mind with Scripture.” (Read the full definition online from Vine’s Expository Dictionary


http://billgothard.com/bill/teaching/rhemas/

 

[stumpjumper]

logos=word=written word of God.

Logos=Word=Jesus Christ. Logos is one of His names.

There is no distinction in Koine Greek like that.

Logos meant varying things based upon the context, yes, but never the written scriptures.

At best, you can claim that the Logos of God can be experienced through meditating upon scripture but it is not the scriptures. Scripture = graphe.

Get it? Scholars teach it!

If they do, they aren't scholars but hacks.

Perhaps they would benefit from a concordance:

In John, denotes the essential Word of God, Jesus Christ, the personal wisdom and power in union with God, his minister in creation and government of the universe, the cause of all the world's life both physical and ethical, which for the procurement of man's salvation put on human nature in the person of Jesus the Messiah, the second person in the Godhead, and shone forth conspicuously from His words and deeds.

You are purposely misconstruing what I say--for what reason? To dredge up strife? Probably.

I have no misconstrued anything. Perhaps you are just realizing the the Word of God is not the Bible afterall...

The Holy Spirit is only on those who are Christ's and those of Christ read the word of God regularly for spiritual nourishment. The Holy Spirit reveals to the reader the truth. His spoken word o us is Rhema.

Umm no.

Rhema means an utterance usually by a human voice as that is how it is predominantly used in the Bible though a few places do use it to denote an utterance from God.

The only Christians that believe Rhema means what you say are Pentecostals from my experience.

1) that which is or has been uttered by the living voice, thing spoken, word
a) any sound produced by the voice and having definite meaning
b) speech, discourse
1) what one has said
c) a series of words joined together into a sentence (a declaration of one's mind made in words)
1) an utterance
2) a saying of any sort as a message, a narrative
a) concerning some occurrence
2) subject matter of speech, thing spoken of
a) so far forth as it is a matter of narration
b) so far as it is a matter of command
c) a matter of dispute, case at law

Atheists may recieve the truth and the Holy spirit may move them when they read the Scriptures, but He isn't in them.

So the Holy Spirit moves in non-believers but is not in them.

Got it. Makes perfect sense

 

[BigBadWlf]

Your competition is not with me. I do not have to know you at all,
to know what is written in the Word of God and know that your
testimony opposes not only what is written, but what God has confirmed
through judgments He has carried out in history. You are contending with God
who has condemned homosexual behavior and has spoken
that the practice is abominable and detestable in His sight and
not only historically has judged it with an iron fist, has also proclaimed
that His mind has not changed and will not change and has judged already
that those who practice it will not enter His Kingdom.

I didn't ask you what your source of information is
for the reason that you practice homosexuality. I asked you what your source
is that has the power and authority to override what God has spoken and
holy men of God who were moved by the Holy Spirit wrote in the Christian
text known worldwide as the Holy Scriptures, and applies to all men, except
homosexuals?

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." John 13:34-35

you wish to apply the commandment of Jesus himself to all…except homosexuals

 

[Ohioprof]

How would I have no idea? Have you not claimed
repeatedly that you are "married" to a woman and are a woman?

Are you claiming that you are not romantically involved with each
other and that you are both celibate?

If so, why would you make references again and again to your
"loving monogamous relationship"?

So, again I ask you directly are you claiming that you are not
romantically involved with each other and that you are both celibate?

I never asked you what the source of authority
was to speak about yourself. I asked what the source of authority
is that you use to usurp the authority of God by claiming that
homosexual behavior is not sin.

No, I have never claimed to be married to anyone. I am single. I do not have sex with anyone. I am not romantically involved with anyone. And even if I were, it would not be any of your business to judge my life.

You made assumptions about me, without ever asking me about who I really am. Then you made judgments of me based on your assumptions about me.

That's something Jesus told people NOT to do, eh?