Homosexuality

[savedandhappy1]

I do get so tired hearing that if I believe homosexuality is a sin, then I am a hater. The hate has allegedly been perpetrated by a conspiracy of narrow-minded, conservative theologians and anti-gay Christians whose sole purpose is to vilify gays and deny them their due rights as human beings.

Contrary to what the conspiracy theory suggests, Bible translators over the centuries were focused primarily on accurately translating the scriptures, not in singling out one group of people to vilify. Prohibitions against homosexuality are typically mentioned in context with many other forms of sin, including adultery, fornication and incest. If we were to say that the gays were being singled out, then other people who sin could also claim victim status. In other words all of us since we all are sinners.

Don't get me wrong, there are some people who truly hate homosexuals, and may have tried to justify such hate by the scriptures against it. Even so, I don’t think this is where the majority of Christians who believe homosexual acts are sinful are coming from. Their belief that homosexuality is sinful is taken from the scriptures that state it and from the conviction of their own consciences.

It is a mistake to state that believing a way is the same thing as hating a person. It’s important to emphasize that the issue at hand is sinful behavior, not the person behind it. Christians are called to hate the evil that people do, but love people:

Romans 12:9-13
9 Let love be without hypocrisy. Abhor what is evil. Cling to what is good.
10 Be kindly affectionate to one another with brotherly love, in honor giving preference to one another;
11 not lagging in diligence, fervent in spirit, serving the Lord; 12 rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly in prayer;
13 distributing to the needs of the saints, given to hospitality.

Christians’ love for one another is brotherly love, not sexual love. This concept of brotherly love carries with it the responsibility of confronting a brother when he has drifted into sinful activity.

Gal. 6:1
1 Brethren, if a man is overtaken in any trespass, you who are spiritual restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness, considering yourself lest you also be tempted.

And so, if a person believes the scriptures that clearly identify homosexual acts as sin, his responsibility in love is to go and confront him/her. Such confrontation are describe in Matthew 18:15-17, 2 Thessalonians14-15, James 4:11, James 5:19-20, 2 Thessalonians 2:14, Matthew 18:17, 1 Corinthians 5:9-13

Taken out of context, some of these actions might seem hateful, except when we consider that the ultimate hope is that the person will repent from his/her sin.

We see time and time again the posting of the scriptures that speak of love. I was looking the other day into some things about hell, and found that hell is spoke of in the Gospels, in 24 groups of scriptures. I then looked into love, and found that it is mentioned in 10 groups of scriptues in the Gospels. It seems that speaking of hell was very important when Jesus was here.

Of course, we can also see that really love is mentioned 34 times, because to warn someone of hell is done to try and keep someone from going there. If they didn't love them, why would they warn them?

If God is Sovereign, then he has the right to define what is right and wrong, what is sinful behavior and what is righteous. This may seem hateful and unfair towards people who disagree, but the Creator has the final word over the created! People have the freedom to believe it or reject it, but either way, we all will have to live with the consequences of our decisions.

 

[LogosRhema]

And I agree with you completely savedandhappy1. What I was saying was that a lot of Christians take God's commands to an extreme and try to judge others based on that, which is not our place. You described our Brotherly and Sisterly love and duties to a T.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

And I agree with you completely savedandhappy1. What I was saying was that a lot of Christians take God's commands to an extreme and try to judge others based on that, which is not our place. You described our Brotherly and Sisterly love and duties to a T.

homosexuality as a sexual orientation is never specifically condemned in the bible. The debate is about same-sex sex, and whether or not it is sinful according to God's Word. In my opinion, to take it past that seems to be fruitless, as we all fall into sin.

 

[onemessiah]

Assuming Christ followed Jewish Tradition there would be no sex life proclaimed or to even speak of, as it is not stated in the Bible that He got married. And it would be safe to assume that in His ministry for us that He would not have time for the complications of marriage and raising children. His sole purpose, as we all know, was to die for our sins.

Are you suggesting Christ had sex outside of marriage? Then His crucifixion would mean nothing, as the perfect sacrifice would have been tainted. I'm sorry but I'm going to have to debunk what you just said there. As it makes no logical or philosophical sense.

No, I'm not suggesting anything either way. But, the fact is that the bible never mentioned a word about Jesus' sexual endeavors (or lack thereof) or his marital status. So no one can comment on Jesus' sex life or make any positive statements based on it, i.e., saying that "Jesus didn't have sex with so and so". You can have an opinion on it, but that's about all...you can't state it as a fact.

Was Jesus a virgin? Do you know? I'm sure you probably believe he was, and if so, can you direct me to a verse which explicitly states so?

 

[HaloHope]

I see your point and by saying that certain Bible translations could be skewed, but you'd have to agree with me, wither it is written in Greek, English, Spanish, Chinese, or any language that certain parts of the Bible are very clear. Said with love, what is said in Corinthians about engaging in "homosexual acts" can't get much clearer, but how you live your walk is between you and God.All I can do is show you where and what is said about certain things in the Bible, if you take them to heart or not is again between you and Christ. I'm not disgusted or have contempt in my heart towards you, in fact I simply pray that you grow closer to God, that's what would be best in my opinion.

There are actually a number of us here that think the Corinthians translations are the ones most up for actual debate. I personally believe Paul is talking about pagan rituals there as opposed to homosexuality in the context of a commited couple. However lets avoid debating that here, plenty of other threads where its been done to death.

THank you for your prayers, I agree its always nicer to get close to God and I appreciate them very much

 

[Ohioprof]

Hi LR.

We need to remember I Corinthians 6:9-11 (especially verse 11). A homosexual christian is any oxymoron.

You cannot be in Christ and be gay at the same time, whether you struggle with it or not.

And as with any struggle, know that because of Christ and that He loves you and is SO willing and able to help you come to the fullness of Him, no one needs to stay in bondage to sin.

That's why the scriptures say "be not deceived."

I am gay and Christian. I do not "struggle" with "homosexuality." I struggle to try to win equal treatment under the law for gay and bisexual people and equal and fair treatment by people in the wider society. That's my struggle.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,
The reason why you may or may not struggle with homosexuality is irelavent if you dont think same-sex sex is wrong. For those homoseuxals who believe the Bible that same-sex unions are error, some struggle, and praise God, overcome, just as we all can overcome any issue.
But whether you are Christian or not is irrelevant if your idea this doesnt match Christian views. You keep trying to justify your views as Christian by stating you are Christian.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Halohope,

There are actually a number of us here that think the Corinthians translations are the ones most up for actual debate. I personally believe Paul is talking about pagan rituals there as opposed to homosexuality in the context of a commited couple. However lets avoid debating that here, plenty of other threads where its been done to death.

The trouble is if you think the Corinthians translation is up for debate, what of the Romans, 1 Tim 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1, Indeed Matt 19, Mark 10, Ephesians 5 for starters, aren’t they up for debate as well or do you believe same-sex sex is error and wickedness? You see the point is these countenance faithful man/woman union and condemn same-sex unions., where does that leave you… a lot of disputes and no countenance for what you propose.
Furthermore, where does 1 Corinthians 6 refer to pagan rituals if not idolatory as well as fornication adultery and arsenokoites.

 

[HaloHope]

Dear Halohope,
The trouble is if you think the Corinthians translation is up for debate, what of the Romans, 1 Tim 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1, Indeed Matt 19, Mark 10, Ephesians 5 for starters, aren’t they up for debate as well or do you believe same-sex sex is error and wickedness? You see the point is these countenance faithful man/woman union and condemn same-sex unions., where does that leave you… a lot of disputes and no countenance for what you propose.

I do not even consider most of those verses vaugely applicable to the debate. But anyway as I said the topic of this thread is not to do with verses but rather the OP is asking for peoples opinions about how some Christians treat gay people.

 

[artybloke]

Said with love, what is said in Corinthians about engaging in "homosexual acts" can't get much clearer

Unfortunately, this is the crux of the matter. That there are those people who think this is clear is obvious. But it isn't clear; it's a passage in which two words that have been badly translated into English and which nobody really knows what they mean have been used to bash people who aren't like us straight folk over the metaphorical head.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Unfortunately, this is the crux of the matter. That there are those people who think this is clear is obvious. But it isn't clear; it's a passage in which two words that have been badly translated into English and which nobody really knows what they mean have been used to bash people who aren't like us straight folk over the metaphorical head.

Even discounting the corinthians passage completely, what about the entire paragraph in romans 1 regarding sexual behavior? Everyone makes it seem like there is just a tiny little phrase in the bible that has been badly translated and misconstrued to denounce homosexuality, when in fact there are several references, as well as examples of a God-blessed marriage. If the Word of God is complete, why would such an important thing be omitted?

 

[artybloke]

Look, Jet, you've heard all the arguments. You are quite free to reject modern scholarship and live with your head in the sand for as long as you want, but you know as well as I do what those arguments are. I'm not going to repeat what they are.

As for the Word of God being complete, that depends what you mean. If you mean the work of salvation as seen in the life of Christ (the only Word of God the Bible evers talks about), then yes it's complete.

But no text - the Bible included - is "complete" until it is read - and if you read it with blinkers on you get a blinkered reading. If you read with at least a recognition of your own blinkers (as I hope I do, even if I don't always succeed) you at least have the possibility of discovering a text afresh, even being astonished by it. If you read with blinkers, you see what you want to see, or expect to see, every time.

As for God's speaking to us - that is never complete.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Look, Jet, you've heard all the arguments. You are quite free to reject modern scholarship and live with your head in the sand for as long as you want, but you know as well as I do what those arguments are. I'm not going to repeat what they are.

Since when did all of mainstream modern scholarship agree on anything ? Why does my interpretation of scripture cause my head to be in the sand? I've yet to see someone prove it false, that same-sex sex is not in error, and that it is part of God's plan for man. All i've seen so far is translational discrepancies, and even with those it is understandable (even if not agreeable) why they chose the context that they did.

As for the Word of God being complete, that depends what you mean. If you mean the work of salvation as seen in the life of Christ (the only Word of God the Bible evers talks about), then yes it's complete.

I meant as a means of guidance for social interaction, namely sexual behavior

But no text - the Bible included - is "complete" until it is read - and if you read it with blinkers on you get a blinkered reading. If you read with at least a recognition of your own blinkers (as I hope I do, even if I don't always succeed) you at least have the possibility of discovering a text afresh, even being astonished by it. If you read with blinkers, you see what you want to see, or expect to see, every time.

As for God's speaking to us - that is never complete.

I agree.

 

[artybloke]

I meant as a means of guidance for social interaction, namely sexual behavior

How can a compendium of writings, written from aproximately 1000BC to aproximately 100AD, be a means of guidance for social interaction in the 21st Century? Beyond generalisations such "Love God and love your neighbour", "love your enemy" (and the emphasis always seems to be on love, not legalism, in the teaching of Christ) how can we go to it for specific "guidance?"

Parts of the Bible certainly were intended to set down laws - the laws of Torah - which we are not bound by since Christ anyway - but most of the Bible is not. To isolate a few verses out of context and make them binding on people who are not like us is not fair, nor is it loving.

We can learn a lot from the Bible if we read it through the eyes of love. But if all it is, is a set of rules, then it's out of date and worse than useless. In fact, it's harmful.

All readings of scripture are provisional, including my own, because we can never account for all of our blinkers. But we try.

 

[Jet_A_Jockey]

Parts of the Bible certainly were intended to set down laws - the laws of Torah - which we are not bound by since Christ anyway - but most of the Bible is not. To isolate a few verses out of context and make them binding on people who are not like us is not fair, nor is it loving.

we are not bound by any laws, our salvation lies in Christ, not law keeping. This however does not mean that we can do as we please. We can still observe the law without being bound by it. It's like doing your best, even though you know in the end that the culmination of your efforts will fall short, and you rely on Christ as your means of justification.

This is going to end up back into the conversation about the different types of laws and why some do and do not apply to modern day.

If you want to start throwing away morality laws, though, then it should be ok to murder.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear artybloke,

How can a compendium of writings, written from aproximately 1000BC to aproximately 100AD, be a means of guidance for social interaction in the 21st Century?

Well because Christians believe it is the word of God. You see many come to believe the testimony of Jesus Christ which is those writings. Furthermore many come to know of God in creation as one of those criteria is life in man and woman.

Beyond generalisations such "Love God and love your neighbour", "love your enemy" (and the emphasis always seems to be on love, not legalism, in the teaching of Christ) how can we go to it for specific "guidance?"

Pardon? Jesus Christ teaches God’s purpose in creation is male and female, man and woman to be untied and that same-sex sex is sin. See Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5 etc It seems that when we quote Jesus Christ’s teaching to you you ignore it and tell us to refer to Jesus Christ’s teaching on something else.
God is love and He demonstrated this through Jesus Christ as an atonement for our sins, what you are doing is suggesting one of the sins He died for us for isnt a sin. Love isnt the issue, if same-sex sex is a sin its loving and not harmful and its not binding on people who don’t believe, its only binding on people who do believe.

 

[IamRedeemed]

What I find completely perplexing is why you present yourself as a homosexual? You stated in this forum, awhile back that you had a sex change operation that caused you to be a "woman" and you are in love with a woman, and have said over and over that the thought of being with a man is "repulsive" to you.

Call me crazy, but it sounds like you are (inside) a heterosexual who has
now been surgically trapped in a "woman's" body.

In my most humble opinion, your situation is unique to say the least.
But one of the situations you truly do not possess, (based on
your own testimony of how you became a woman), is
being homosexual.

To the world, in your new surgical form, it may "appear" that you are a
involved in a homosexual relationship, but given the information you have shared
here, unless you left out very important details, it just isn't possible that
you are a homosexual.

So, I do not understand why you persist with this presentation?

It annoys me that other Christians treat my relationship with another women with contempt and disgust. It annoys me that many gay people are pushed away from the church by negative attitudes based on archaic translations of the Bible which may not even be the correct translation in the first place.

Perhaps most of all it annoys me that those who condemn us dont seem to grasp just how unreasonable it is that they can get married and have happy sexual relationships with the person they love, and we gay people are meant to suck it up and deal with celibacy for all our lives.Im sorry but theres no way thats going to sit with me, it would be unreasonable for God to ask that of me, and he isnt unresonable so I dont believe that God condemns same-sex relationships.

End of rant.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Halohope,

It annoys me that other Christians treat my relationship with another women with contempt and disgust. It annoys me that many gay people are pushed away from the church by negative attitudes based on archaic translations of the Bible which may not even be the correct translation in the first place.

Firstly it may annoy some Christians that you try and claim same-sex sex relationships are somehow not sinful when as I have demonstrated the Bible says they are and so do the Christian denominations and churches. However it seems to me only the people who are for same-sex unions get upset and annoyed.
Secondly, none of the Christians here have said you or any gay person should be pushed away from the church as far as I am aware we have pointed out that the are homosexual believers in the church and homosexuals are fully accepted in the church. So please say who you mean instead of repeating this false mantra.

and we gay people are meant to suck it up and deal with celibacy for all our lives.Im sorry but theres no way that’s going to sit with me, it would be unreasonable for God to ask that of me, and he isn’t unreasonable so I dont believe that God condemns same-sex relationships.

Firstly some heterosexuals are stuck with celibacy if they believe and follow Jesus, if they don’t they can almost certainly seek a prostitute. To follow Jesus is to know that we have been bought at a price and we are to honour God with our bodies 1 Cor 6. Secondly let me ask you why would it be unreasonable for God to ask you to be celibate?

 

[HaloHope]

What I find completely perplexing is why you present yourself as a homosexual? You stated in this forum, awhile back that you had a sex change operation that caused you to be a "woman" and you are in love with a woman, and have said over and over that the thought of being with a man is "repulsive" to you.

Transexuality is the brain and body of a person not matching. A person who is MtoFemale transexual for example is a female brain unfortunately born in a male body, That male body is corrected to female to cure this.

Call me crazy, but it sounds like you are (inside) a heterosexual who has
now been surgically trapped in a "woman's" body.

Not at all, gender and sexuality are entirely seperate entities (I never found anyone attractive or even looked for a partner until after I transitioned). I have a female brain, I am attracted to women in an entirely female way and I could have never ever under any circumstances used my old body to have hetrosexual sex.

In my most humble opinion, your situation is unique to say the least.
But one of the situations you truly do not possess, (based on
your own testimony of how you became a woman), is
being homosexual.

Not entirely unique as there are many trangender people in the same situation as me. After they are in the correct bodies a TS person can end up with either gender but their sexuality is based on their brain sex not their original body sex.

To the world, in your new surgical form, it may "appear" that you are a
involved in a homosexual relationship, but given the information you have shared
here, unless you left out very important details, it just isn't possible that
you are a homosexual.

Some people assume this as they have little knowledge of the subject, but the vast majority of people around me who know of my circumstances see me as who I am. A woman who happens to be gay. My partner still considers herself a lesbian despite knowing my past as she knows my mind has always been 100% female.

Even my birth certificate says female as of a few months ago..

So, I do not understand why you persist with this presentation?

As its true? I dont ive my life as someone who is TS, Im over that now and live my life as a gay woman.

 

[Phinehas2]

Transexuality is the brain and body of a person not matching. A person who is MtoFemale transexual for example is a female brain unfortunately born in a male body, That male body is corrected to female to cure this.

This iscorrect, its gender dysphoria. This is why ist important to distinguish that same sex acts are wrong. The sex of a person is determined by their physical sexual organs, a hermaphrodite has both male and female sexual or reproductive organs. Gender dysphoria is not a sin.
This is another reason why the words heterosexual and homosexual and their meanings are so confused.