Homosexuality

[artybloke]

I have demonstrated the Bible says they are

You have demonstrated no such thing. All you've done is demonstrated that you are totally blind to the context of scripture, in common with most fundamentalists who assume that they're speaking for God when all they're doing is defending their own homophobia.

Pardon? Jesus Christ teaches God’s purpose in creation is male and female

That's your interpretation, it's not mine. I don't think that Jesus made any such universal laws about male and female; he was answering a question put to him by the Pharisees.

This however does not mean that we can do as we please.

I never said it did. Since when did "love God and love your neighbour" not have consequences on peoples' behaviour? But we are not bound by law - any law - because the law was made by men - but by the love of God - which we pass onto others if we can.

If you want to start throwing away morality laws, though, then it should be ok to murder.

In what way would that accord with "love your neighbour as yourself?" Once again, you've set up a strawman arguement. Apart from the fact that the OT laws on homosexuality are not morality laws but ritual purification laws to do with temple prostitution and idolatry...

 

[HaloHope]

This iscorrect, its gender dysphoria. This is why ist important to distinguish that same sex acts are wrong. The sex of a person is determined by their physical sexual organs, a hermaphrodite has both male and female sexual or reproductive organs. Gender dysphoria is not a sin.
This is another reason why the words heterosexual and homosexual and their meanings are so confused.

As someone who knows a great deal about gender/gender issues and a lot of things surrounding it I will take what I know to be fact on this subject over uneducated opinions.

 

[BigBadWlf]

Even discounting the corinthians passage completely, what about the entire paragraph in romans 1 regarding sexual behavior? Everyone makes it seem like there is just a tiny little phrase in the bible that has been badly translated and misconstrued to denounce homosexuality, when in fact there are several references, as well as examples of a God-blessed marriage. If the Word of God is complete, why would such an important thing be omitted?

Corinthians is badly translated

Romans is badly interpreted

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear artybloke

You have demonstrated no such thing. All you've done is demonstrated that you are totally blind to the context of scripture, in common with most fundamentalists who assume that they're speaking for God when all they're doing is defending their own homophobia.

On the contrary I have demonstrated from the Bible, you on the other hand have demonstrated you don’t believe the Bible and indeed your icon is Anglican see Lambeth 1.10, if you aren’t even in line with your own church I wouldn’t make unfounded comments. Of course I have demonstrated from the Bible, you on the other hand have barely provided any scripture yourself.

That's your interpretation, it's not mine.

No, you pick up a Bible, say NIV or KJV translation and read it.
"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."
No again and for the last time I didn’t write the Bible, the NIV is an English translation of the original Greek and here is the original Greek
o de apokriqeiV eipen autoiV ouk anegnwte oti o poihsaV ap archV arsen kai qhlu epoihsen autouV
kai eipen eneken toutou kataleiyei anqrwpoV ton patera kai thn mhtera kai proskollhqhsetai th gunaiki autou kai esontai oi duo eiV sarka mian
wste ouketi eisin duo alla sarx mia o oun o qeoV sunezeuxen anqrwpoV mh cwrizetw

I don't think that Jesus made any such universal laws about male and female; he was answering a question put to him by the Pharisees.

then you have read the Bible properly.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Bigbadwlf,

Corinthians is badly translated

Romans is badly interpreted

Thats just your interpretation, do you speak Greek as a matter of interest?

 

[David Brider]

This is another reason why the words heterosexual and homosexual and their meanings are so confused.

Homosexual: Someone who is attracted to people of the same gender as themselves.

Heterosexual: Someone who is attracted to people of the opposite gender to themselves.

(Bisexual: Someone who is attracted to people of the same gender as, and the opposite gender to, themselves.)

Where's the confusion?

David.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,
Well the reason is in my post. The discussions seem to be dysfunctional even on the basis of the English language, one things is however evident there rae two groups, those of us in th group who believe the same about the Bible understand each other

 

[onemessiah]

Homosexual: Someone who is attracted to people of the same gender as themselves.

Heterosexual: Someone who is attracted to people of the opposite gender to themselves.

(Bisexual: Someone who is attracted to people of the same gender as, and the opposite gender to, themselves.)

Where's the confusion?

David.

The confusion lies in the various forms of attraction, and the context it's used in.

Although I don't see the confusion in that either...

 

[Phinehas2]

The other evident thing is that those in the group who believe the Bible is the word of God all believe same-sex sex is error, whereas some in the group who dont believe same-sex sex is ok don't even claim to believe the Bible.
It seems to me the issue here is the Bible as a benchmark and reliable rule and standard of faith and conduct.

 

[LogosRhema]

Wow this blew up into something I did not originally intend.

It all comes down to, in what Christ-like manner should we deal with a brother or sister, in Christ, who is dealing with homosexual thoughts? I do not believe we should be homophobic and bitter... sigh I already covered this earlier.

If the discussion continues on as is, then I guess I've said what Ive said and I have nothing else to contribute.

 

[David Brider]

Not sure if this belongs in the Theology Forum, but move as necessary if needed.

This is more of an ideal question for both the straight Christian and homosexual Christian.

I'm not sure how many "proclaiming" homosexual Christians there are here, but I was curious...

How do those who struggle or have struggled with homosexuality feel when fellow Christians speak of their "sin" in such a horrid light.

And how do those who actually are mindful and humble about themselves go addressing this issue.

In my mind, yes I would say that it is not Christ like, BUT I cannot talk about it in some ways a lot of people do, for me sin is black and white, the sin of homosexuality is just as bad as lighting up a cigerate or cussing your car out. I feel that there are a lot of Christians out there that are very judgmental when homosexuality is brought up...

Last thing I would want a brother or sister in Christ to do to me if I were struggling with something was a negative attitude towards my struggle and condemnation.

Well, although I'm not homosexual, I realised a few months ago that I was bisexual. For me, there was no struggle involved in this, except about when to come out, and to whom (I'm more comfortable being "out" online). I'm probably quite lucky compared to others - I'm in a happy and secure relationship with my girlfriend of three years, and we've committed to be 100% faithful to each other, so realising that I'm bisexual hasn't had any effect on my life.

The things that really bug me about the way some Christians relate to us are the assumptions - assumptions such as:

LGBT Christians haven't prayed through the issues. We have - we've just reached different conclusions to our critics.

LGBT Christians haven't heard all the proof texts from the Bible. We have. A thousand and one times.

LGBT Christians don't believe the Bible. We do. We just interpret some of it differently to our critics, and are more open minded to the possibility that the traditional interpretations and translations might not be 100% correct. In my case, at least, I don't see any adequate Biblical basis for the idea that the Bible is the same thing as "the Word of God", but I still believe the Bible to be theopneustos and a true and reliable record of man's dealings with God down the ages.

LGBT Christians can't be real Christians. We can. We are.

LGBT Christians are living "the gay lifestyle" and that makes us immoral and corrupt. No, we all live our own individual lifestyles, which in many cases aren't radically different to the lifestyles of many of those who make these sweeping accusations.

LGBT Christians have a "gay agenda". Yeah, sure, we're committed to taking over the world and corrupting your children. Get real. We'll just be happy to be recognised as equal members of society, and for gay men and women to be allowed to marry their partners, instead of being disallowed on the basis of centuries-old prejudice.

For me, the bottom line is - I want to love and honour God with all of my mind, heart, soul and strength. I want to live a holy life in the power of the Holy Spirit. I find it sad that many of my Christian brothers and sisters suggest that that's not the case, that I'm somehow less Christian than them because I happen to not be heterosexual.

I very much suspect that this will be my last posting on this part of the forums, for a while at least, because quite frankly I find it tedious and tiring and depressing, with much of the argument going round in circles and not really getting anywhere.

Could I just recommend a book I've recently bought - A Theology of Gay and Lesbian Inclusion, by Donald G Hanway. It could be a valuable resource in the ongoing debate on these forums.

God bless you all,

David.

 

[BAFRIEND]

I am gay and Christian. I do not "struggle" with "homosexuality." I struggle to try to win equal treatment under the law for gay and bisexual people and equal and fair treatment by people in the wider society. That's my struggle.

I am straight and a real Christian. I do not struggle with the fact that homosexuality is an objective moral evil. I fight to defend my religion against modern day sagism and relativism. I fight for Jesus, that His word will not be corrupted and that our children will not be brain washed into accepting immoral lifestyles.

Jesus said the road to salvation would be narrow. You know the difference between right and wrong. The road you build with bulldozers does not lead anywhere.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David,
I think the probelm is all these theologies of gay and lesbian people inclusion are a waste of time as Christianity already includes all who believe whatever their sexual attraction. Gay and lesbain inclusion means sex, namely same-sex sex.
All these gay theologies do is reason away what the Bible actually says, they do not present the same counetances the Bible does. So although we see counetenace for faithful man/woman unions in the Bible and many times throughout the NT, we see no countenance for monogmaous homoseuxal faithful loving unions.
All the arguments against the Biblical passages which condemn same-sex sex according to what they say are argued against by disputing then with assumptions.
Alas the Christian churches therefore do not see just a debate about same-sex sex, but a systematic denial of the Bible to support an agenda ... namely serious dsibelief.

 

[LogosRhema]

Dear David,
I think the probelm is all these theologies of gay and lesbian people inclusion are a waste of time as Christianity already includes all who believe whatever their sexual attraction. Gay and lesbain inclusion means sex, namely same-sex sex.
All these gay theologies do is reason away what the Bible actually says, they do not present the same counetances the Bible does. So although we see counetenace for faithful man/woman unions in the Bible and many times throughout the NT, we see no countenance for monogmaous homoseuxal faithful loving unions.
All the arguments against the Biblical passages which condemn same-sex sex according to what they say are argued against by disputing then with assumptions.
Alas the Christian churches therefore do not see just a debate about same-sex sex, but a systematic denial of the Bible to support an agenda ... namely serious dsibelief.

Well said. Exactly the way I see all this debate. The Bible says what it says, wither someone accepts what its saying is between them and God.

 

[artybloke]

The Bible says what it says,

But the Bible doesn't say what you'd like to think it says.

 

[LogosRhema]

But the Bible doesn't say what you'd like to think it says.

I said that as a straight foward comment, please read what I write in context before you say something off hand. What I meant by that is it says what it says and you can take it as it is or leave. Most leave it in two ways. One ignoring it. Two warping it to their own desires.

Yes I realize it does not say what I'd like it to say. The Bible isn't for my desires, but for His desires.

 

[JayJay77]

by Phinehas2:
Dear David,
I think the probelm is all these theologies of gay and lesbian people inclusion are a waste of time as Christianity already includes all who believe whatever their sexual attraction. Gay and lesbain inclusion means sex, namely same-sex sex.
All these gay theologies do is reason away what the Bible actually says, they do not present the same counetances the Bible does. So although we see counetenace for faithful man/woman unions in the Bible and many times throughout the NT, we see no countenance for monogmaous homoseuxal faithful loving unions.
All the arguments against the Biblical passages which condemn same-sex sex according to what they say are argued against by disputing then with assumptions.
Alas the Christian churches therefore do not see just a debate about same-sex sex, but a systematic denial of the Bible to support an agenda ... namely serious dsibelief.

Excellent post.

BTW, talking about a monogynous homosexual relationship is a decent argument after twisting scriptures to seem unclear in this view. It's still wrong.

However, bisexuality as "moral" and O.K. just boggles my mind. Isn't that unfaithful in itself? There's no way bisexuality is remotely acceptable from a biblical standpoint.

 

[David Brider]

However, bisexuality as "moral" and O.K. just boggles my mind. Isn't that unfaithful in itself?

In what way?

David.

 

[LogosRhema]

In what way?

David.

Well if you had a girlfriend AND a boyfriend... you'd be sharing your love with two people, when it was only meant for one, so technically speaking you'd be cheating on your bf and gf... kind of confusing, thus to both you'd be unfaithful.

 

[David Brider]

Well if you had a girlfriend AND a boyfriend... you'd be sharing your love with two people, when it was only meant for one, so technically speaking you'd be cheating on your bf and gf... kind of confusing, thus to both you'd be unfaithful.

But as I have just the one girlfriend, to whom I'm committed to being 100% faithful, that's not really an issue.

David.