Homosexuality

[David Brider]

It comes from the sinful imagination of depraved mankind, is where it comes from. You can't pin that behaviour on a holy God.

Homosexuality isn't a behaviour. It's an attraction. Same as heterosexuality is an attraction.

David.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Homosexuality isn't a behaviour. It's an attraction. Same as heterosexuality is an attraction.

David.

Sinful attraction, lust, behaviour. All fall under the same sin. All sin has its conception in the mind, then it moves to action.

James 1:14-15
Temptation comes from our own desires, which entice us and drag us away. These desires give birth to sinful actions. And when sin is allowed to grow, it gives birth to death.

 

[David Brider]

Sinful attraction...

So what makes homosexuality sinful attraction where heterosexuality isn't?

David.

 

[Floatingaxe]

So what makes homosexuality sinful attraction where heterosexuality isn't?

David.

When a man wants to have sex with another man--that's a dead giveaway.

 

[David Brider]

When a man wants to have sex with another man--that's a dead giveaway.

I'm not talking about "wanting to have sex" - just about attraction.

David.

 

[Floatingaxe]

I'm not talking about "wanting to have sex" - just about attraction.

David.

Well, if a Christian man is having an attraction toward another man, I am sure he would be aghast at the occurrence! He would confess it and renounce it, leaving it at the cross.

We all suffer with attractions to things that are ungodly from time to time, but we, as believers do what we must in God, to take control of our thoughts, so that they do not fall into sinful lust.

Homosexual attraction is a very dangerous thing if not turned over to Jesus.

In Christ we are more than conquerors. That sort of attraction is from the pit and needs to be sent back there. No Christian man or woman needs to bear that kind of burden--Jesus wants to bear it for you. He wants to free your mind from such encumbrances that you can be free to do and live for Him with all you've got!

 

[David Brider]

Well, if a Christian man is having an attraction toward another man, I am sure he would be aghast at the occurrence!

Some are, including contributors to these boards. Some are not.

He would confess it and renounce it, leaving it at the cross.

Many Christian men and women struggle with homosexual attractions. In most cases that I know of, all the confessing and renouncing in the world does nothing to change their sexual orientation.

We all suffer with attractions to things that are ungodly from time to time, but we, as believers do what we must in God, to take control of our thoughts, so that they do not fall into sinful lust.

As you're well aware, I don't share your conviction that the very few verses that speak out against male-male non-consensual sex (in Leviticus) or arsenokoites (in Corinthians) constitute a universal condemnation of all forms of homosexuality or homosexual activity. That being the case, I don't share your belief that homosexual orientation consitutes an attraction to something that is ungodly, nor that is any more likely to lead to sinful lust than heterosexual orientation is.

Homosexual attraction is a very dangerous thing if not turned over to Jesus.

In Christ we are more than conquerors. That sort of attraction is from the pit and needs to be sent back there.

Again, I can't really agree with your view of things here. To be honest, even when I did share your belief that homosexual activity was sinful, I wouldn't really have felt that it was any business of mine what people get up to in their bedrooms, and I'm not sure that either homosexual attraction nor homosexual activity can be considered dangerous, not with all the genuinely terrible things going on in the world today (compared to war and murder and rape and child abuse and destruction of the environment, two consenting adults having sex in their bedrooms, regardless of their genders, really seems pretty trivial).

No Christian man or woman needs to bear that kind of burden--Jesus wants to bear it for you. He wants to free your mind from such encumbrances that you can be free to do and live for Him with all you've got!

Again, I really can't agree with what you're saying about homosexual attraction being a "burden". Although in fairness, different people react to their sexual orientation in different ways, and I can well understand how someone brought up in an environment of being surrounded by people who told him or her that "homosexuality is a sin" would regard it as a burden if they realised they were gay. Someone not brought up with those preconception would probably not share that feeling of it being "a burden".

Also, Christians who are homosexual do live for Him with all they've got. I really wish you'd understand that.

David.

 

[Ohioprof]

Some are, including contributors to these boards. Some are not.



Many Christian men and women struggle with homosexual attractions. In most cases that I know of, all the confessing and renouncing in the world does nothing to change their sexual orientation.



As you're well aware, I don't share your conviction that the very few verses that speak out against male-male non-consensual sex (in Leviticus) or arsenokoites (in Corinthians) constitute a universal condemnation of all forms of homosexuality or homosexual activity. That being the case, I don't share your belief that homosexual orientation consitutes an attraction to something that is ungodly, nor that is any more likely to lead to sinful lust than heterosexual orientation is.



Again, I can't really agree with your view of things here. To be honest, even when I did share your belief that homosexual activity was sinful, I wouldn't really have felt that it was any business of mine what people get up to in their bedrooms, and I'm not sure that either homosexual attraction nor homosexual activity can be considered dangerous, not with all the genuinely terrible things going on in the world today (compared to war and murder and rape and child abuse and destruction of the environment, two consenting adults having sex in their bedrooms, regardless of their genders, really seems pretty trivial).



Again, I really can't agree with what you're saying about homosexual attraction being a "burden". Although in fairness, different people react to their sexual orientation in different ways, and I can well understand how someone brought up in an environment of being surrounded by people who told him or her that "homosexuality is a sin" would regard it as a burden if they realised they were gay. Someone not brought up with those preconception would probably not share that feeling of it being "a burden".

Also, Christians who are homosexual do live for Him with all they've got. I really wish you'd understand that.

David.

Good post, David.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,

As you're well aware, I don't share your conviction that the very few verses that speak out against male-male non-consensual sex (in Leviticus) or arsenokoites (in Corinthians) constitute a universal condemnation of all forms of homosexuality or homosexual activity.

Firstly I don’t share your conviction for the no verses at all that countenance same-sex sex. At least I have conviction in something tangible.
Secondly I haven’t got a clue to what you are referring to with male-male non-consensual sex, there is no mention of consensual as a criteria for any sex. That’s just a red herring and a non sequitur.

I wouldn't really have felt that it was any business of mine what people get up to in their bedrooms, and I'm not sure that either homosexual attraction nor homosexual activity can be considered dangerous, not with all the genuinely terrible things going on in the world today (compared to war and murder and rape and child abuse and destruction of the environment, two consenting adults having sex in their bedrooms, regardless of their genders, really seems pretty trivial).

Well that’s just your opinion, but in fact I don’t think an isolated case of paedophila is significant compared with the deaths in wars, but that doesn’t make paedophila any more right. ... so I dont think the principle and logic of what you are saying here means anything.

 

[David Brider]

Dear David Brider,
Firstly I don’t share your conviction for the no verses at all that countenance same-sex sex. At least I have conviction in something tangible.
Secondly I haven’t got a clue to what you are referring to with male-male non-consensual sex, there is no mention of consensual as a criteria for any sex. That’s just a red herring and a non sequitur.

No not a red herring or a non sequitur; it's been pointed out that the word used in the Leviticus verses (the ones translated as "do not lie with a man as with a woman") refer to some kind of rape, i.e. non-consensual sex. That being the case, any form of male-male sex which is consensual isn't condemned by those passages.

Well that’s just your opinion, but in fact I don’t think an isolated case of paedophila is significant compared with the deaths in wars, but that doesn’t make paedophila any more right. ... so I dont think the principle and logic of what you are saying here means anything.

I don't think you're really grasping the principle or logic of what I'm saying. Which is odd, because it's not terribly complicated:

Child abuse = clearly wrong.
Rape = clearly wrong.
Warfare = clearly wrong.
Consenting adults of whatever gender and sexual orientation sleeping with each other = not clearly wrong.

David.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear David Brider,

No not a red herring or a non sequitur;

There is no mention of consent as a criteria in the Biblcal teaching of man and woman in faithfull union or the condemnations of same-sex. Consent is implied when both a man leaves his father and mother and is united with his wife. The passages that specifically condemn same-sex sex only refer to the acts. So it’s a red herring and a non sequitur.

it's been pointed out that the word used in the Leviticus verses (the ones translated as "do not lie with a man as with a woman") refer to some kind of rape, i.e. non-consensual sex. That being the case, any form of male-male sex which is consensual isn't condemned by those passages.

Actually its been pointed out that they don’t and again this is a condemnation verse you don’t believe, I am not really interested in what you don’t believe that I do, I am interested in what you believe so please give me passages that countenance same-sex sex and leave off the ones that condemn it.

Child abuse = clearly wrong.

Rape = clearly wrong.
Warfare = clearly wrong.
Consenting adults of whatever gender and sexual orientation sleeping with each other = not clearly wrong.

No the last one is clearly wrong
It all depends on what basis one judges..
Look
Rape = clearly wrong. Yes see Deut 22:13-
Warfare = clearly wrong. Well yes see Mark 7, 1 Tim 1:9-10 but note that includes arenokoites… also see that Jesus says there will continue to be wars
Consenting adults of whatever gender and sexual orientation sleeping with each other = clearly wrong see Gen 2, 19, Lev 18 & 20, Judges 19, Matt 19, Mark 10, Eph 5, 1 Cor 6, 1 Tim 1, Romans 1, 2 Peter 2, Jude 1.

But you didn’t specifically address my question Well that’s just your opinion, but in fact I don’t think an isolated case of paedophila is significant compared with the deaths in wars, but that doesn’t make paedophila any more right. ... does it? so I dont think the principle and logic of what you are saying here means anything.

 

[Zaac]

Biblically, and I have looked to the point of exhausting my eyes and fingers, I can't find any Biblical prohibition against an attraction.

There's an attraction that exists between friends and that's why they are friends. They share common interests and establish a bond.

Attraction is a bad thing when it is not kept in a HOLY perspective. For the homosexual or heterosexual, an unHOLY attraction can lead to lust and that is a sin.

But again, Biblically, I haven't found anything about attraction being sinful. if any of my Christian Brethren have insight into this, let me know.

 

[OllieFranz]

Dear David Brider,
Firstly I don’t share your conviction for the no verses at all that countenance same-sex sex. At least I have conviction in something tangible.

And where are the verses approving of cross-sex sex? All of the verses that specifically talk about sex are talking about sexual sins. By your standard no sex is approved by the Bible.

Secondly I haven’t got a clue to what you are referring to with male-male non-consensual sex, there is no mention of consensual as a criteria for any sex. That’s just a red herring and a non sequitur

.

Non-consensual sex is a polite way of saying rape. (Although it does include some things that less civilized generations would not have thought of as rape.) Rape is treated differently from consensual sex, even in the Bible.

Some scholars note that there are two closely related, but different words in Hebrew that translate as lie, lie down, etc. Both have general usages, but can be used to euphamistically talk about sex. In the Bible, in every case, with two possible exceptions, where the one word is used, rather than the other, the sex is non-consensual. The two verses in question are Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, raising the intriguing possibility that these verses, too, are speaking of non-consensual sex.

It would help explain why the actual ban is worded that it only applies to the "active" partner.

Anticipating the response that according to Lev 20:13, the punishment applies to both, I would point out that in many clearer references to rape, the woman who was raped was also to be punished.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Some are, including contributors to these boards. Some are not.

Those who do not feel shame are the ones who need to come up higher.

Many Christian men and women struggle with homosexual attractions. In most cases that I know of, all the confessing and renouncing in the world does nothing to change their sexual orientation.

So, you think that it is ORIENTATION? No--we are discussing just a mere attraction! Now you jump ahead to overt homosexuality. If that is how you view "attraction", then it's game over.

Attraction is dealt with easily. It's only those who refuse to renounce, but rather clutch at their perverse desire that have the trouble.

As you're well aware, I don't share your conviction that the very few verses that speak out against male-male non-consensual sex (in Leviticus) or arsenokoites (in Corinthians) constitute a universal condemnation of all forms of homosexuality or homosexual activity. That being the case, I don't share your belief that homosexual orientation consitutes an attraction to something that is ungodly, nor that is any more likely to lead to sinful lust than heterosexual orientation is.

The word says to study to show yourself approved--not dig yourself into a hole! Obviously you take the mere difficulty with attraction as full-blown homosexuality. If you don't deal with it, you sin with it even on your mind.

Again, I can't really agree with your view of things here. To be honest, even when I did share your belief that homosexual activity was sinful, I wouldn't really have felt that it was any business of mine what people get up to in their bedrooms, and I'm not sure that either homosexual attraction nor homosexual activity can be considered dangerous, not with all the genuinely terrible things going on in the world today (compared to war and murder and rape and child abuse and destruction of the environment, two consenting adults having sex in their bedrooms, regardless of their genders, really seems pretty trivial).

YES--DANGEROUS. There is no difference to God. It'll get you hell.

Jude 12-15
When these people eat with you in your fellowship meals commemorating the Lord’s love, they are like dangerous reefs that can shipwreck you. They are like shameless shepherds who care only for themselves. They are like clouds blowing over the land without giving any rain. They are like trees in autumn that are doubly dead, for they bear no fruit and have been pulled up by the roots. They are like wild waves of the sea, churning up the foam of their shameful deeds. They are like wandering stars, doomed forever to blackest darkness.
Enoch, who lived in the seventh generation after Adam, prophesied about these people. He said, “Listen! The Lord is coming with countless thousands of his holy ones to execute judgment on the people of the world. He will convict every person of all the ungodly things they have done and for all the insults that ungodly sinners have spoken against him.”

Again, I really can't agree with what you're saying about homosexual attraction being a "burden". Although in fairness, different people react to their sexual orientation in different ways, and I can well understand how someone brought up in an environment of being surrounded by people who told him or her that "homosexuality is a sin" would regard it as a burden if they realised they were gay. Someone not brought up with those preconception would probably not share that feeling of it being "a burden".

Yes, those with ungodly families and friends would be enured to their sinful lifestyle. Only the Holy Spirit can bring conviction to these people.

To those sensitive to His voice, it is a burden until they renounce and walk free in Christ. Until then, they carry it alone.

Also, Christians who are homosexual do live for Him with all they've got. I really wish you'd understand that.

No they do not. He doesn't know them.

 

[BigBadWlf]

[/size][/font]

And where are the verses approving of cross-sex sex? All of the verses that specifically talk about sex are talking about sexual sins. By your standard no sex is approved by the Bible.



Non-consensual sex is a polite way of saying rape. (Although it does include some things that less civilized generations would not have thought of as rape.) Rape is treated differently from consensual sex, even in the Bible.

Some scholars note that there are two closely related, but different words in Hebrew that translate as lie, lie down, etc. Both have general usages, but can be used to euphamistically talk about sex. In the Bible, in every case, with two possible exceptions, where the one word is used, rather than the other, the sex is non-consensual. The two verses in question are Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, raising the intriguing possibility that these verses, too, are speaking of non-consensual sex.

It would help explain why the actual ban is worded that it only applies to the "active" partner.

Anticipating the response that according to Lev 20:13, the punishment applies to both, I would point out that in many clearer references to rape, the woman who was raped was also to be punished.

good post. thank you

 

[BigBadWlf]

[/color]

Yes, those with ungodly families and friends would be enured to their sinful lifestyle. Only the Holy Spirit can bring conviction to these people.

To those sensitive to His voice, it is a burden until they renounce and walk free in Christ. Until then, they carry it alone.

So you are saying that families that reject hatred and bigotry and love their gay/lesbian family member are ungodly?

 

[Floatingaxe]

So you are saying that families that reject hatred and bigotry and love their gay/lesbian family member are ungodly?[/font]

Nope.

Loving your homosexual family member is no sin--but approving of their sin is accounted to you as the sin itself. These people need rescuing from their addiction...we would do the same for a heroin addict or an alcoholic. Homosexuals deserve no less.

 

[walloffire]

So what makes homosexuality sinful attraction where heterosexuality isn't?

David.

Heterosexuality produces children, plain and simple.

 

[beechy]

Heterosexuality produces children, plain and simple.

If an attraction results in a child then it's not a sinful attraction?

 

[Ohioprof]

Nope.

Loving your homosexual family member is no sin--but approving of their sin is accounted to you as the sin itself. These people need rescuing from their addiction...we would do the same for a heroin addict or an alcoholic. Homosexuals deserve no less.

I am not addicted to anything. I don't need to be "rescued."