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intricatic

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That's not what I'm trying to do at all, and you'll find if you see me enough around the forums that I don't fit into any of the molds. I don't even vote because I think politics are a complete waste of time.

I've not only debated this ad nauseum in the past, but I've thoroughly researched it many times over. This isn't the only part of the Bible I stick to, I actually first got dragged into this topic contrary to my interests at the time, and found I could connect the dots with everything else I was starting to understand. If you're seeking the truth, so am I. I also know I don't have a perfect understanding of these things so I'm always open to learning from other people who know more than I do.

Like I said, I truly don't mean any offense, but I know I can sometimes come across that way and I sincerely apologize if this was the case on this thread.
 
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angelmom01

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Ok, I'm not clear...

if all these things are types and shadows... all pointing to Chirst (and his relationship with man) then why do we still look at the NATURAL, when what was really being spoken about were SPIRITUAL truths and a SPIRITUAL relationship between man and God? It was GOD'S PEOPLE (BRIDE) who were commiting "fornication" and "adultery" AGAINST GOD.

Which is why Christ said that a man could not put away his wife EXCEPT FOR THE CAUSE OF FORNICATION??

All of these "sins" (and even the marriage relationship itself) was to "typify" something else, something HIGHER and UNSEEN. But we could only see those things that are UNSEEN by looking at those things that are SEEN (which is why God established them and established laws governing them).

So when PAUL spoke about the marriage relationship and the wife being subject to the husband, etc he was REALLY speaking about THE MYSTERY that was CHRIST AND THE CHURCH.

And WE are to henceforth know NO MAN "after the flesh" (not even Christ), for in Chirst there is NEITHER male nor female, but ONE BODY joined together in ONE SPIRIT - presented as a chaste virgin TO CHRIST.

angelmom
 
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davedjy

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what demoninations or "religious institutions" do you see accepting the act of homosexuality?

Affirmation (Methodist)
Alliance of Christian Churches
American Catholic Church
American Ecumenical Church
Apostolic Restoration Ministries
Association of Welcoming & Affirming Baptists
AXIOS (Eastern Orthodox)
Coalition (United Church of Christ)
Council for Lesbian & Gay Concerns [Brethern (Mennonite)]
Dignity USA (Catholic)
Ecumenical Catholic Church
Edinburgh, Scotland Lesbian Christian Support Group, Meets Monthly at the LGBT Centre for Health and Wellbeing (A Good Gay/Lesbian Christian Resource In The Area)
Evangelical Anglican Church in America (Seminary: Affirmative Christian Studies)
Evangelical Network (Network of Independent Affirming Churches)
Evangelicals Concerned Western Region
Free Catholic Church (Not Affiliated With the Roman Catholic Church)
Friends for Lesbian & Gay Concerns (Quaker)
Friends for Lesbian and Gay Concerns (Quaker)
GLAD Alliance (Disciples of Christ)
Grace Oasis Ministries (Pentecostal)
Integrity (Espiscopalians)
Lutherans Concerned (Evangelical; There is Not a Site At This Time for Missouri Synod)
More Light Presbyterians
National Gay Pentecostal Alliance
PLGC (Presbyterian)
Rainbow Baptists
Seventh-Day Adventist Kinship International
 
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Gusoceros

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The requirements of the Law, are fulfilled. I will not address arguments in this line to avoid filling the thread with unrelated banter.

EnemyPartyII said:
Paul CAN be interpreted as speaking against homosexuality, depending on the translation you use.

Well- I would suggest to you- that that is a HUGE swing in meaning, that is probably based on a wrong interpretation. Just because someone believes a certain passage to mean something different- doesnt mean it actually does. There are plenty of apologists out there for just about every position you can imagine- it matters if what you believe is right. The Bible, stands against the homosexual act as a sin.

EnemyPartyII said:
However, Paul ALSO says it is better for people not to get married too, so if yer married, and citing Paul at me as an argument against homosexuality, well, sorry, but here comes the hypocracy train again...

Paul also said people SHOULD get married to avoid sinning- you see, the context with your example here, is to avoid sin. So - even in your example- Paul is promoting a sinless life.


The Bible is right, or it isnt- I refuse to get pulled in to an argument that says certain parts of the Bible dont need to be listened to because Paul didnt have all of his cards in the proper playing order. A position like that puts the entirety of the Christian faith of to a vote of popularity.


To the contrary again- while this is Paul writing, it is God speaking. The Scriptures have the weight of their Authority- that is the Word of God.

G
 
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Gusoceros

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and its crux time again... why do you think that two people of the same gender cannot embody the entirety of what marriage is supposed to be?

Probably- because they arent even remotely the same thing to begin with - allow me to illustrate just the differences in design-

The 2 unions are fundamentally and functionally different- Let us examine the differences between marriage and same sex union:

The inherant right we are discussing regarding same sex unions, is the right of cohabitation. That right is an inherant right from Liberty- I support this right. Lets say it again: I support the right of same sex couples to live together, as long as they both shall live.

The right of marriage, is a natural right, and is the cornerstone of society- by natural design. It is 1) the purest model of government through the nuclear family, 2) it is the model of education for society, 3) it is the model of procreation for our race, 4) it is the model for love and happiness through natural complementing attributes, and is 5) the model for lifelong social fulfillment.

Let us examine each step and contrast it with same sex marriage so we can see the difference.

1) It is the purest model of government through the structure of the nuclear family. This structure highlights the natural design of Mom and Dad, and the children- each designed specifically for different but necessary purposes inside the nuclear family, for efficient governance. It is also noteworthy, that fidelity is also a characteristic in this model of governance- in that the nuclear family model is built around the same Mom and Dad remaining in the position of authority while raising the family. The natural model is about long term, committed unions of man and woman- to carry out this model of natural governance on the nuclear family. This model is not duplicated naturally by same sex couples- indeed it is impossible for them to create their own nuclear family, by design. The natural design for the family unit, is first a mother and a father- through which the nuclear family model begins. There is a huge difference in the design of the 2 kinds of couples- this points us in the direction of the natural right of marriage- that it is by design, beginning with a man and a woman. Is this bigoted, or a statement of design? You be the judge.

2) It is the model for education in our society. The natural design is that the parents would raise their children- i.e. educate them in life. Parents have a responsibility to educate their children. The natural model follows that children come from and are governed by a man and a woman – husband and wife-. It is easy to see that the natural right of marriage stems from this natural design, of governance, and education, of our race. Same sex couples can not have children naturally, and this is by design. Thus, we see the natural model stands against same sex couples in the area of marriage rights, and their natural ability to educate their children. Rather, the same sex couple has the right of cohabitation- with nature standing against the same sex union in the marriage capacity- in fact, it is a physical impossibility. Is this bigoted, or a statement of design? You be the judge.

3) It is the model for the procreation of our race. The natural right and design of marriage from the Law of Nature, shows us that our race is procreated through this union. Our race and society itself exists because of this union and the natural design of procreation. While it is true, that any 2 members of the opposite sex can procreate- there are 2 things about this that need to be noted 1) they are still the opposite sex, and 2) as was noted in the Model of Government breakout of the Law of Nature- the family model follows the committed long term relationship of husband and wife in marriage- not a one night stand or a fling of convenience. So we see from the natural design, that our race is procreated through long term commitments of a man to a woman, and that same sex couples can not do this, by design. Is this bigoted, or a statement of design? You be the judge.

4) It is the model for love and happiness through natural complementing attributes. While it is true, that we as humans can love each other in many ways- brother to brother, parents to children, lover to lover- we can note the natural design for love and happiness through scrutiny of the natural model. Men and women complement each other in their differences- mentally, physically, and spiritually. The kind of union that is set aside as marriage in the above examples lends itself to a life of love and happiness through the fulfillment of the natural model- man and a woman, raising a nuclear family. It is also true that couples can be in love and feel fulfilled without raising a family- yet the natural model still offers this specific experience of love, happiness, and fulfillment by design to a man and woman in marriage. It is true that there are exceptions to happy families, and some families break apart- the design and fulfillment of raising a healthy family by a man and a woman bound through commitment and fidelity, is only available to a man and a woman, naturally. The Law of Nature, stands against same sex couples from being able to partake of this fulfillment in the natural, and only by design.

5) It is the model for lifelong social fulfillment. It is the natural design of complementing attributes between men and women that brings specific areas of fulfillment to light. Only a man and woman, through the above points in the natural model can create a family legacy and their own family community. It is through the nuclear procreation of our race that parents eventually become grandparents and great grandparents- making possible natural lifelong social fulfillment in addition to a lifetime of friends and other standard social acquaintances. Additionally, a lifetime spent with a complementary mate makes for another social fulfillment that is available only by natural design- as men and women complement each other physically, mentally, and spiritually. While same sex couples can live their lifetime together- they can not create a lifelong social fulfillment- a legacy of family, that the natural model creates by design. Is this bigoted, or a statement of design? You be the judge.


What we can see from the breakout above is that there is a vast difference between the types of unions that we are arguing here. It is often the case, that people argue that same sex couples are not getting equal rights- which is just not true. The breakout above, clearly demonstrates that the 2 kinds of unions- marriage, or same sex union- are completely, and entirely different. It shows that marriage, is a natural right, and by design carries great benefit to society as a whole- in fact it is the foundation of society. Where when we look at same sex unions- we find that they are not even remotely close to the same thing.

So, if they are not the same thing, what are we to do about it? Well, the definition of marriage and the natural right to marriage do not change. Homosexuals, are still free to enter into marriage (characterized by the enumerated 5 characteristics as noted above), but if this is not what they want out of life, not entering into such a union is a choice. We can also see that entering into the DIFFERENT kind of union- same sex union- carries with it an entirely different set of social characteristics, and benefits to society- namely that it is not marriage, nor does it carry the same benefits.

We have discussed that married people do not have the right to get special benefits under the law, this is a true statement. In the same vein, if benefits are already offered for people to be married- then those that are pushing to get the same benefits for the same model- should be required to demonstrate that they are equal, and thus due the same benefits. Since we have already destroyed the assertion that same sex unions are the same thing as marriage unions in terms of how they benefit society, we can safely move to the position that the argument of equal representation under the law, is fulfilled by the fact that we are not talking about the same thing to begin with.

Since we are not talking about the same kind of union here- we now need to establish what is this second union? Is there a right involved here? Well, yes there is, and that is the right of cohabitation- derived from Liberty- in that as free people, we are allowed to live our lives freely, so long as we are not infringing on another’s right. Does this include the right to be given the same benefits that are not earned through marriage? No, it does not- we have demonstrated the striking differences between the 2 unions, and it is a fact- that same sex unions do not remotely come close to the same arrangement as marriage does, to society.

This leaves us in a quandary then- what to do with those that are screaming for the benefits applied to the marriage license, to now be applied to civil unions- a completely different kind of union than marriage? In my estimation- one would need to prove that this right first exists- this new right, that is not characterized as the natural right of marriage- but rather on 2 people who want to live together. The marriage benefits become a detriment to society when they are applied to same sex couples- because there is no return on investment to society- the benefits are now – unfounded.

So- in my estimation- it is either do away with the marriage benefits, or fight same sex marriage/civil unions as the lie they are. I believe it is a matter of principle to fight the lie either way, and a matter of precedent to fight for the benefits. The benefactor of marriage benefits is society- this battle is truly, a lose lose situation- by fighting it, those ignorant of marriage and natural rights will rise up against you, or you give up the benefits to marriage- and society loses. Or worse- same sex marriage/civil unions win the day, and redefine what marriage is, create a new right that doesn’t exist, and get paid for something they can never provide.

G
 
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EnemyPartyII

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I don't see any of these attributes of marriage as out of reach of my partner and I.
Is this bigoted, or a statement of design? You be the judge.
Bigoted.
Where when we look at same sex unions- we find that they are not even remotely close to the same thing.
nonsense
The Law of Nature, stands against same sex couples from being able to partake of this fulfillment in the natural, and only by design.
nonsense, plus if your "homosexuality=bad because they can't procreate" argument is to have any merrit, I would expect you to make similar statements about the sin of infertile couples, or couple who choose not to have children
 
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intricatic

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Ain't no such thing as a spiritual truth that isn't also a hard, physical reality in regards to anything related to the Judaic tradition.

Sin is still sin, though it may typify something else. God doesn't deal in arbitrary regulations, if He does anything at all. Those spiritual fornications and adultery against God weren't just spiritual, afterall.
 
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Mling

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Question for Gusoceros: This model you describe, has it ever been denied you? That is, has there ever been a significant amount of time in your life where you believed--rightly or wrongly, because of your own beliefs or because somebody else pushed theirs on you--that you would never be able to take part in a family as you have described it?

Because you were infertile, or removed from your parents' home for some reason, etc..
Have you ever simply not had the option of taking part in even the concept of "family"?
 
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angelmom01

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Ain't no such thing as a spiritual truth that isn't also a hard, physical reality in regards to anything related to the Judaic tradition.
I agree. That is why I said that those things that are UNSEEN are made known to us by those things that ARE SEEN. But aren't we are to be looking at those things that are not seen?

2Co 4:17-18 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are NOT seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are NOT seen are eternal.

Christ said that HIS words are spirit and they are life.

First the natural then the spiritual.

Sin is still sin, though it may typify something else. God doesn't deal in arbitrary regulations, if He does anything at all. Those spiritual fornications and adultery against God weren't just spiritual, afterall.
Not saying that sin is not sin or that God is arbitrary. What I am saying is that while we DO SIN (for sins dwells IN US, "in the flesh", in "this body of death"), we can still live TO GOD "in the spirit". That does not give us license TO SIN, but the fact remains that the spirit wars with the flesh and men still SIN. The only one who was given the spirit of God WITHOUT MEASURE was Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior.

The LAW was a SHADOW of a better thing TO COME (CHRIST). We are no longer under the law, but GRACE. For the law is a ministration of DEATH and it worketh WRATH.

So what I am asking is ...

if all of these physical/natural things (laws and ordinances, etc) POINT TO something else (something that was UNSEEN and YET TO COME) then shouldn't WE be looking at what those things were pointing TO?

Looking at the (spiritual) REALITY rather than the (physical) SHADOW?

Not that we should dishonor what was establish, as even Paul said:

Eph 5:32-33 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

But the TRUE relationship is between MAN AND GOD (not husbands and wives). But God showed this relationship between Christ and the church by establishing a physical relationship and union between a man and a woman. But that union was established to SHOW US or POINTED TO the relationship between Christ and the church, God and His people, the HEAD and the BODY.

We are all part of the same many-membered body, whether we are male or female, married or single, etc.

There is only ONE HUSBAND and ONE WIFE when we look beyond the natural/temporal to see the spiritual/eternal.

angelmom
 
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ReformedChapin

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lol

God is supposed to give us the power? We can't under our own strenght but with God what isn't possible?

And peters denial doesn't indicate your point, but insted shows our limitation as humans...only with God can we combat sin.
 
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intricatic

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100% in agreement here. Christ, working through us, circumstantially conforms us to the things seen, but that's not the goal or the means by which that change comes about. To be alive in the Spirit is to be dead to the world.

Wasn't scripture inspired through Christ, as co-eternal and co-creator of everything that is? That's the implication I see in the OT, especially with all the many references to 'word of God'.

Which both at once speaks to the word of God as scripture and in the same sense Christ speaks of it as.

The physical union between man and woman was created in the design of what interpersonal relationships are meant to be. That's the clue that explains the theological implications of it. This is the one case where looking back to Genesis yields the same results as looking ahead at the eternal. It's the implication behind the relationship that was 'unseen' and the ritualized application that's 'seen'.
 
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angelmom01

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lol

God is supposed to give us the power?
Not sure what you are referring to.

We can't under our own strenght but with God what isn't possible?
With God ALL things are possible. Does that mean that God DOES "all things"? Or don't you know of any Christians who still struggles with sin or whose prayer are NOT answered?

And peters denial doesn't indicate your point, but insted shows our limitation as humans...only with God can we combat sin.
And just what do you think my point was? Peter SAID he was willing to go TO THE DEATH WITH CHRIST. Do you think that he didn't really MEAN or BELIEVE that when he said it? Yet he STILL denied Him.

angelmom
 
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davedjy

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Haven't read the whole thread.

But if homosexual behavior is unnatural, why is it found so much in nature ?
Oh, I'll answer that one for the Fundy Conservative side.

Because nature follows the corrupt paths of satan, too, even though they don't have to follow morals, they still look to Satan for guidance, and he leads them. Nature has been corruped by Satan! how blasphemous even though God has control over nature!
Nature is involved in pagan worship and exchanges the "natural uses" also...animals worship images of mortal man, birds, reptiles, too (Romans 1:22) LOL!
 
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pgp_protector

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So if natural is unnatural dose that make unnatural natural ??
 
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angelmom01

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100% in agreement here. Christ, working through us, circumstantially conforms us to the things seen, but that's not the goal or the means by which that change comes about. To be alive in the Spirit is to be dead to the world.
Not sure what you mean. We are conformed to the things SEEN? It is the things seen that reveal to us the things that are NOT SEEN - that are ETERNAL. And it by Christ working in us that we are "conformed into the image of His Son", so not sure what you mean by "that's not the gaol or the mans by which that change comes about" (when speaking of Christ working through us).

Wasn't scripture inspired through Christ, as co-eternal and co-creator of everything that is? That's the implication I see in the OT, especially with all the many references to 'word of God'.


Which both at once speaks to the word of God as scripture and in the same sense Christ speaks of it as.


The physical union between man and woman was created in the design of what interpersonal relationships are meant to be.
I see the union between Adam and Eve as being a 'type' (or you use 'anti-type'?) of Christ and the church.

The WOMAN (wife) being taken from the rib of the man, the man being FIRST FORMED (as Paul said). Eve was said (of Adam) to be "bone of my bone and flesh and my flesh" and "the mother of all living".

NEW Jerusalem (the church/bride/wife of Chirst) is said to be "of His flesh and of His bones" and "the mother of us all".

God joined them together anf made them ONE FLESH and said that Eve's desire would be TO HER HUSBAND and that HE WOULD RULE OVER HER.

Paul very clearly showed that THE MYSTERY was that this relationship was speaking OF Christ and the Church. So it seems to me that the laws governing it were also spiritually applicable to the church as the bride of Christ.

Christ said that a man cannot put away his wife EXCEPT FOR THE CAUSE OF FORNICATION (which is the reason that God gave put away His "wife" and gave her a BILL OF DIVORCEMENT).

EVERYTHING in the scriptures POINT TO CHRIST. It is the scriptures that TESTIFY OF HIM. But we cannot find eternal life in the scriptures, we must GO TO HIM for that.


Not sure what you mean but there are LOTS of 'types' hidden in Genesis. And I agree it is by those things we can see that those things that we can't see are made known.

angelmom
 
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