Homosexuality

[davedjy]

You're relying on the foundational idea that same-sex attraction is innate. This is why I asked for you to prove a subjective experience to be objective.

I've showed you a large mass of consistent evidence towards exactly what you're asking about. I need not provide any more.

It is innate. I consider myself to be gay/bisexual, and I have had the attractions since I was a very young kid. I go by my own experiences, and relate it back that way, and no, I was never abused sexually or physically.

 

[intricatic]

Like I said earlier, if you'd like to discuss the ethical aspect of how Christians are called to relate to homosexuals, this is an entirely different matter. But most people in today's age do not like to approach this subject because it contradicts subjective experience. I say it's a different story because, although I defend the fact that homosexuality is a sin, and the position that homosexuality is a choice, I do not condone treating homosexuals in any way different than any other sinner. Romans 1 has it's double edge in Romans 2.

 

[intricatic]

It's because it doesn't refer to it as an "abomination" o(tow'ebah). It just says: 6 " 'No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD..

Perhaps the scholars who are writing on this topic missed the end passage from Leviticus 18.

24 ‘Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. 25 For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants. 26 You shall therefore keep My statutes and My judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations, either any of your own nation or any stranger who dwells among you 27 (for all these abominations the men of the land have done, who were before you, and thus the land is defiled), 28 lest the land vomit you out also when you defile it, as it vomited out the nations that were before you. 29 For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30 ‘Therefore you shall keep My ordinance, so that you do not commit any of these abominable customs which were committed before you, and that you do not defile yourselves by them: I am the LORD your God.’”
(Leviticus 18)

 

[davedjy]

Perhaps the scholars who are writing on this topic missed the end passage from Leviticus 18.

Yes, it says customs, now read Leviticus 19 and see which word they use.

Btw, this topic IS about the ethics whether it is sinful or not, read the opening post. I'm surprised you didn't get that, this is what this thread is about.

 

[angelmom01]

One more time around the bend. Hopefully this will be quick and concise.

The above quoted post explains the manifest design that the rest of the Bible is a product of in one way shape or form, depending on topic or subject.

Antitype refers to a mirror image in relationship between two things, one being the type and the other the antitype. Type is the true image, the complete image. For instance, Christ is the Type of Adam. Christ is also the Type to the paschal lamb. The type and antitype depend absolutely on one another to receive and predict their form and function.

God's relationship to man, as detailed in Genesis 1, 2 and 3 is mirrored to man's relationship to woman. Type and antitype.

Idolatry is a reversal of the type and antitype which places man above the divine.

Homosexuality is a reversal of the type and antitype of man's relationship to woman.

This is why the two are often linked together, because the two are fundamentally linked together in scripture as a whole.

Much clearer explanation!

So then, if the anti-types were fulfilled by THE TYPE (Christ), then are the anti-types still applicable? Or were they just the "examples" (or shadows) that were given to us to show us spiritual truths?

angelmom

 

[chris777]

Perhaps the scholars who are writing on this topic missed the end passage from Leviticus 18.

thats why I posted those verses earlier, because it clairfies that they wer all abominations, and he just blew them off

 

[davedjy]

thats why I posted those verses earlier, because it clairfies that they wer all abominations, and he just blew them off

They aren't ALL current day abominations, which is the TRUE point. You blow off what you choose to blow off...

 

[chris777]

They aren't ALL current day abominations, which is the TRUE point. You blow off what you choose to blow off...

Ahhh so you choose to blow off homosexuality then

 

[intricatic]

Yes, it says customs, now read Leviticus 19 and see which word they use.

I have. It's the same word as we've been discussing.

The extended context is towards the abominations (generic) of the lands Israel was to inherit. It was a warning about committing adultery against God and seeking self-serving ends. It becomes prophetic later on in that each of the things spoken about are committed against God almost immediately after the proclamation is made.

Btw, this topic IS about the ethics whether it is sinful or not, read the opening post. I'm surprised you didn't get that, this is what this thread is about.

We're discussing whether it's sinful or not. I didn't say we should discuss that. There's a difference between ethics and morality, although it may be subtle...

1 Therefore you are inexcusable, O man, whoever you are who judge, for in whatever you judge another you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things. 2 But we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against those who practice such things. 3 And do you think this, O man, you who judge those practicing such things, and doing the same, that you will escape the judgment of God? 4 Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; 10 but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
(Romans 2)

If you'll notice, I was the first reply on the thread.

I think a lot of people get really worked up over this topic for probably the same reason that I do, but I don't intend anything to come across as a personal affront. I apologize if I came across that way. I get really passionate about Biblical topics in general. I must be weird.

 

[davedjy]

Ahhh so you choose to blow off homosexuality then

I blow off homosexuality, because I have different interpretations and I have made peace w/God in my understandings of them. You can believe you want, point fingers, quote scriptures like the Pharisees, and in the end, I know my interpretations are correct.

 

[chris777]

I blow off homosexuality, because I have different interpretations and I have made peace w/God in my understandings of them. You can believe you want, point fingers, quote scriptures like the Pharisees, and in the end, I know my interpretations are correct.

It is a shame you view all of this as some contest, or schoolyard blame game where everyone points their fingers at everyone elses transgressions, in a fruitless attempt to divert attention from their own.
I will pray for you
But I suggest you meditate really hard on those verses, its one thing to reconcile things for yourself, but you are here attempting to teach others that those verses show what you want them too,

Are you really sure you want to take the responcibility for potentially leading someone else astray?
Like I said I will pray for you, as I have said my piece, and you have made it clear you choose to believe as you do.

 

[intricatic]

Much clearer explanation!

So then, if the anti-types were fulfilled by THE TYPE (Christ), then are the anti-types still applicable? Or were they just the "examples" (or shadows) that were given to us to show us spiritual truths?

angelmom

Excellent question!

Hebrews sums up the entire thing very precisely.

6 Now when these things had been thus prepared, the priests always went into the first part of the tabernacle, performing the services. 7 But into the second part the high priest went alone once a year, not without blood, which he offered for himself and for the people’s sins committed in ignorance; 8 the Holy Spirit indicating this, that the way into the Holiest of All was not yet made manifest while the first tabernacle was still standing. 9 It was symbolic for the present time in which both gifts and sacrifices are offered which cannot make him who performed the service perfect in regard to the conscience— 10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.

11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation. 12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh, 14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God? 15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
(Hebrews 9)

The same form is true of the overall covenant relationship. Most, if not all Biblical antitypes are fulfilled in Christ. In a way, nothing has changed, but the antitype is revealed by it's true nature in Christ, which then becomes the Type. Or, to put it another way, the details of the plan for salvation is laid bear before us where before it was obscured by symbols pointing towards it, while also pointing backwards to the time before the need for salvation.

23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.
(Hebrews 9)

 

[davedjy]

It is a shame you view all of this as some contest, or schoolyard blame game where everyone points their fingers at everyone elses transgressions, in a fruitless attempt to divert attention from their own.
I will pray for you
But I suggest you meditate really hard on those verses, its one thing to reconcile things for yourself, but you are here attempting to teach others that those verses show what you want them too,

Are you really sure you want to take the responcibility for potentially leading someone else astray?
Like I said I will pray for you, as I have said my piece, and you have made it clear you choose to believe as you do.

You know of any other "sin" that gets people killed or beaten up for being that way? hmm.....

I didn't ask you to pray for me, but I don't need prayers telling me to change, but you can pray or say whatever you want. I will take responsibility for what I say, but I consider myself of that orientation so God already knows what I deal with. He knows that I am not "purposefully" trying to lead people astray, only give them answers.

Yes, you pulled a trolling verse about my eyes being blind or something. I can just as well pull the verse on you, but let's keep this discussion civil, or better yet, maybe I should stop duping myself into these carousel debates of thought.

If I was straight, I would have little doubt to even try researching this topic for thousands of hours on end, I would just go along w/the conservative viewpoint, and not question it. Either way, you have personally fulfilled your attractions and are getting your needs met in a relationship, while a homosexual person is supposed to stay celibate their whole lives or "grow attraction" towards the opposite sex. Whatever, it's preposterous and I see why that lady on the other thread stopped debating, it was getting too emotional for her.

 

[intricatic]

It is innate. I consider myself to be gay/bisexual, and I have had the attractions since I was a very young kid. I go by my own experiences, and relate it back that way, and no, I was never abused sexually or physically.

I wouldn't suggest that you are, and I wouldn't suggest I know why or how you feel. I've never been able to understand either position in the natural sexuality debate (that is, we're either completely heterosexual or completely homosexual, with rare exception for bisexuals), personally, so it always strikes me as speaking in a foreign language.

I get tired of the same accusations, too, but mostly because they just completely lack creativity. I long for the day when someone says gay people are gay because aliens abducted them and planted mind-control chips in the base of their spinal columns. I think that would make for an interesting conversation.

 

[davedjy]

See the thread RE: sex change and the way people think they have to "go about" being w/someone of the same sex.

I am getting out of this one, you people keep debating it among yourselves. I'm not changing anyone's beliefs, your not changing mine so it's pointless. Please don't quote me, I'm unsubscribing to this thread, it's a bunch of crap everytime, and this discussion is

USELESS


Continue confusing gays and bi's the way you always go about your business, depressing them more...str8 is gr8, right? (((((((LOL))))

 

[chris777]

You know of any other "sin" that gets people killed or beaten up for being that way? hmm.....

that sort of thing is not biblical and those that do it have revealed their fruit

I didn't ask you to pray for me, but I don't need prayers telling me to change, but you can pray or say whatever you want. I will take responsibility for what I say, but I consider myself of that orientation so God already knows what I deal with. He knows that I am not "purposefully" trying to lead people astray, only give them answers.

Yes, you pulled a trolling verse about my eyes being blind or something. I can just as well pull the verse on you, but let's keep this discussion civil, or better yet, maybe I should stop duping myself into these carousel debates of thought.

I am not trolling, and I am sorry if the verses offended you, as technically it was not meant for you. I said It because so many choose to follow themselves rather than Christ.

If I was straight, I would have little doubt to even try researching this topic for thousands of hours on end, I would just go along w/the conservative viewpoint, and not question it. Either way, you have personally fulfilled your attractions and are getting your needs met in a relationship, while a homosexual person is supposed to stay celibate their whole lives or "grow attraction" towards the opposite sex. Whatever, it's preposterous and I see why that lady on the other thread stopped debating, it was getting too emotional for her.

I have been single since 97 when my ex wife decided She liked being a punching bag better than being married, and spending time with her family. So I am no stranger to being alone.
I have also been in chronic pain since early 2000, but my suffering has shown me that time is short. even if I suffer for 70 more years it would still be nothing in the light of eternity.

be paitent

 

[savedandhappy1]

beacuse my little friend. Jesus said that you will not be evil by eating pork. but he did not say that you should. If you are not willing to accept what the old testiment says then why should you rely upon it to convey your ideals.

Well young man, frankly, you need to re-read the scriptures that I posted.

1 Tim 4:3-4
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
​

In the scriptures above we see how some will command people to abstain from meats, right? That is v.3, and we see in v.4 that there is nothing to be refused, because every creature of God is good.

I use Romans 1 to convey my ideas about this issue more than Leviticus. I also use Jude, and a few other NT verses.

I do that because the first thing that everyone usually tries to say is the OT scriptures don't count anymore because of Jesus.

You on the other hand are trying a reverse method. Which doesn't really matter, since we should take the bible all together to get the best understanding of the scriptures.

When we do that we see that in the OT and the NT, homosexuality is a sin.

You might want to changed your wording alittle in your post, so it doesn't sound rude or arrogant. I know that it is hard to type so that you aren't misunderstood, I have that problem at times myself.

Anyhow I thought you would probably want to know how your post sounded alittle rude or arrogant, because I know I am always thankful when people let me know or ask if I realize how something sounded.

God Bless.


​

 

[intricatic]

I think that last post was taken in a totally different direction than it was meant to be taken.

I'm sorry if this whole thread got too heated. I in no way meant any insult on my part, though I think I can come across too hostile sometimes. Heh.. I don't judge people, I judge doctrine. I think I need to put that in my avatar or something.

 

[angelmom01]

See the thread RE: sex change and the way people think they have to "go about" being w/someone of the same sex.

I am getting out of this one, you people keep debating it among yourselves. I'm not changing anyone's beliefs, your not changing mine so it's pointless. Please don't quote me, I'm unsubscribing to this thread, it's a bunch of crap everytime, and this discussion is

USELESS


Continue confusing gays and bi's the way you always go about your business, depressing them more...str8 is gr8, right? (((((((LOL))))

HEY! I was getting something out of it!!

You also said:

If I was straight, I would have little doubt to even try researching this topic for thousands of hours on end, I would just go along w/the conservative viewpoint, and not question it.

Well, I am heterosexual, but I have tried to look at this topic in-depth as I know the impact that it has.

I think there is MUCH MORE to some of the things we read (even the reference to going after "strange flesh").

I wish I could find the study I did on it. But I am sure others are glad that I can't.

But it is a topic that interests me, even though it doesn't impact me in the same way it would if I was homosexual.

angelmom

 

[davedjy]

I have been single since 97 when my ex wife decided She liked being a punching bag better than being married, and spending time with her family. So I am no stranger to being alone.
I have also been in chronic pain since early 2000, but my suffering has shown me that time is short. even if I suffer for 70 more years it would still be nothing in the light of eternity.

be paitent

I will be praying for you, and for your healing.

I think that last post was taken in a totally different direction than it was meant to be taken.

I'm sorry if this whole thread got too heated. I in no way meant any insult on my part, though I think I can come across too hostile sometimes. Heh.. I don't judge people, I judge doctrine. I think I need to put that in my avatar or something.

I didn't take your post, it was all of them from everyone on "your side". It's almost like getting beaten up for believing something, and nobody is defending my beliefs on this thread, so it's a gang-match. If this was the first thread I started debating this on, it would be one thing, but I have debated this topic ad nauseam, I have used all verses OT AND NT to state my interpretations. Thank God I'm not bound by your doctrine, only by what the truth is.