homosexuality

kod · Sep 13, 2002

Originally posted by Chloe
  If God says something is sin, an abomination, why do some insist on saying that it is not or deny that it applies today? 

 

You are certainly entitled to that point of view, and you may even be right, but here's a challenge for you.

Go to http://www.blueletterbible.org/ and search for the word "abomination".  Then ask yourself if you do any of the things described as an "abomination" in the Old Testament.  A lot of women who wear pants will be surprised by Deut 22:5.

SUNSTONE · Sep 14, 2002

Originally posted by fragmentsofdreams
Homosexuality - the attraction to people of the same sex. -- Not a choice.

Homosexual acts -- A choice.

I can't understand why you have such trouble understanding this, unless you are consciously preventing yourself from understanding.

I understand what you are saying but it is a choice to fight those feelings.
You can believe in a lie that you are gay, and decide not to act on it. Or you can believe that God wants to set you free from this lie. Your choice.

It may take some time for God to destroy the lies that caused you to believe like this. Just remember that God's way of life is better than ours.
Your feelings may tell you different, but when God shows you the truth, they will change.

SUNSTONE · Sep 14, 2002

Originally posted by kod
 

You are certainly entitled to that point of view, and you may even be right, but here's a challenge for you.

Go to http://www.blueletterbible.org/ and search for the word "abomination".  Then ask yourself if you do any of the things described as an "abomination" in the Old Testament.  A lot of women who wear pants will be surprised by Deut 22:5.

Are you trying to justify your actions based on other people?

kod · Sep 15, 2002

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
Are you trying to justify your actions based on other people?

No, just trying to encourage people to look more closely at the meaning of the word abomination in that context (compare the discussion of "day" in Genesis, or the word "one" in "I and my Father are one",  and you might see what I mean).

SUNSTONE · Sep 16, 2002

Originally posted by kod
No, just trying to encourage people to look more closely at the meaning of the word abomination in that context (compare the discussion of "day" in Genesis, or the word "one" in "I and my Father are one",  and you might see what I mean).

I am not sure where you are going with this, so where are you going with this?

Whats wrong with "one day" when God made certain things?
Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Ghost are one. One God, three parts.

The gay lifestyle.
Jesus said if look on a women(I assume she's married, or your married) with lust you have commited adultery in your heart.
Its the same if you look at the same sex lifestyle.

LouisBooth · Sep 16, 2002

"Homosexuality - the attraction to people of the same sex. -- Not a choice."

yes, it is a choice. the sin of that thinking is the same as the sin of the action. Christ himself said that. If you have adulterious thoughs in your mind, then you have sinned. Same with homosexuality.

LouisBooth · Sep 16, 2002

Kod..I'm going to do an indepth study on th Pentateuch, so I'll let you know. I'm willing to bet that my view will be more the vindicated.

fragmentsofdreams · Sep 16, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Homosexuality - the attraction to people of the same sex. -- Not a choice."

yes, it is a choice. the sin of that thinking is the same as the sin of the action. Christ himself said that. If you have adulterious thoughs in your mind, then you have sinned. Same with homosexuality.

So, temptation is a sin?

seebs · Sep 16, 2002

Originally posted by SUNSTONE
Are you trying to justify your actions based on other people?

I think his point is well taken - many of the things called "abomination" in the OT are *unambiguously* merely cultural constraints to keep the Hebrews pure. This doesn't mean that they're all OK - it just means that merely being
condemned in Leviticus isn't a good reason not to do something. Further study seems to lead down any of several paths from here, and all of them have people whose relationship with God seems to be pretty strong walking down them... It's not something where you can easily point at one group and say "they're not seriously trying to understand God's will". God's will on this one is, if we study it honestly, apparently fairly cloudy, simply because devout people can come to such utterly different readings.

I take this as a sign that there are probably more important battles to be fought, and try not to get caught up in what is, essentially, a pointless debate.

LouisBooth · Sep 16, 2002

"So, temptation is a sin?"

No, temptation and going over it in your mind are 2 very different things.

Thinking of homosexual acts is a sin.

fragmentsofdreams · Sep 17, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"So, temptation is a sin?"

No, temptation and going over it in your mind are 2 very different things.

Thinking of homosexual acts is a sin.

You said homosexual attractions are a sin. You did not limit it to thinking about homosexual acts. Since you make the distinction now, I ask you: is homosexuality, the attraction (initial temptation) to persons of the same sex sinful?

GreenEyedLady · Sep 17, 2002

A sin is a sin.
I don't think that one can say that a homosexul cannot be saved. After all, murders, crimanals, liars, can be saved.

Sin is wrong regardless what kind of sin it is.
Revelation 21:8 _But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Homosexuality is just as bad as being a liar, if your NOT saved...all will have their part in the lake of fire as it says.

The only things that bother me about homosexuals is there right to say...we are sinners and we desrve to have rights. I don't see any alcolics asking for rights, nor any liars, murderors...ect...WHy should THEY think that rights should be given to sin? Doesn;'t ,make any sense to me.
Does this make sense???
GE

LouisBooth · Sep 18, 2002

"I ask you: is homosexuality, the attraction (initial temptation) to persons of the same sex sinful?"

Is thinking about murdering someone a sin?

fragmentsofdreams · Sep 18, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"I ask you: is homosexuality, the attraction (initial temptation) to persons of the same sex sinful?"

Is thinking about murdering someone a sin?

Is the initial temptation to kill someone a sin? No.

Is continuing to comtemplate this temptation a sin? Yes.

Now, answer my initial question. Is homosexuality, the attration (initial temptation) to persons of the same sex, sinful?

SUNSTONE · Sep 18, 2002

Originally posted by seebs
I think his point is well taken - many of the things called "abomination" in the OT are *unambiguously* merely cultural constraints to keep the Hebrews pure. This doesn't mean that they're all OK - it just means that merely being
condemned in Leviticus isn't a good reason not to do something. Further study seems to lead down any of several paths from here, and all of them have people whose relationship with God seems to be pretty strong walking down them... It's not something where you can easily point at one group and say "they're not seriously trying to understand God's will". God's will on this one is, if we study it honestly, apparently fairly cloudy, simply because devout people can come to such utterly different readings.

I take this as a sign that there are probably more important battles to be fought, and try not to get caught up in what is, essentially, a pointless debate.

Its most definitly not pointless.

This guy agrees that the "act" of homosexuality is wrong, but the "lifestyle" isn't. I disagree.

I never said "they're not seriously trying to understand God's will".
Me personaly I don't think that this guy is Christian, I think he is a person of the gay community trying to attack the word of God.
God wanted me to ask kod, why he believed in God. So I did, and he hasn't answered me.
Immediatly after putting that post up, I looked up all of his posts and they were on two things war and gaylifestyle thats it.

LouisBooth · Sep 18, 2002

"Is the initial temptation to kill someone a sin? No."

Really? I think that's quite unbiblical. So you think the intial thought of having sex with a married women is also not a sin. Christ though differently

fragmentsofdreams · Sep 19, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"Is the initial temptation to kill someone a sin? No."

Really? I think that's quite unbiblical. So you think the intial thought of having sex with a married women is also not a sin. Christ though differently

I assume you are refering to the sermon on the mount (since you only made reference to the Bible as a whole, I can't be sure).

The relevent passage (Mt 5):
21 "'You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, "You shall not murder"; and "whoever murders shall be liable to judgement." 22 But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother [without cause] you will be liable to judgement; and if say Raca to [insult] a brother, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, "You fool," you will be liable to the hell of fire [Gehenna]. 23 So when you are offering your gift at the altar, if you remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with yoour accuser while you are on the way with him, or your accuser may hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I tell you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny.

27 "'You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery." 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already commited adultery with her in his heart.'"

(Italics represent differences in ancient authorities or the alternate translation)

Jesus is showing us that sin is not in the physical act but in our thoughts and intentions. If one is angry with another and desires to kill him or her but doesn't out of fear of punishment, one is as guilty as the murderer. Cowardice does not bring salvation. Anger is dangerous and should be pushed away. This does not mean that we are sinning when we feel angry. It's what we do with it, whether we let it boil within us that is important.

The same applies to lust. Looking at a woman (or a man) with lust and fantasizing about sexual encounters is dangerous. It leads to fornication, adultery, and the objectification of the person. However, the attraction that occurs at first glance, before the will can act, is just attraction.

seebs · Sep 19, 2002

Exactly! Lust and desire are *NOT* the same thing. Lust is a sin all the time, even in marriage. Desire is never a sin in and of itself, merely a quality of your body, like seeing or hearing.

LouisBooth · Sep 19, 2002

"However, the attraction that occurs at first glance, before the will can act, is just attraction."

Yes, it is because the act is inherently evil, thus the attraction is as well. Its an evil desire. Just like lust is an evil desire any way you put it.

fragmentsofdreams · Sep 20, 2002

Originally posted by LouisBooth
"However, the attraction that occurs at first glance, before the will can act, is just attraction."

Yes, it is because the act is inherently evil, thus the attraction is as well. Its an evil desire. Just like lust is an evil desire any way you put it.

Sin is an act of the will. Something that happens before one can will it cannot be a sin.

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