Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

[EnemyPartyII]

try reading what I said.

I never asserted Michael Collins, or indeed anyone else in the Apollo 11 crew was homosexual.

What I SAID was... "whatever Collin's sexuality, he was that sexuality even when he was a zillion miles from the nearest possible fellow participant"

OK?

To be homosexual you have to be attracted to another person of the same sex. Who would Adam have been attracted to? There were no other males alive at the time. Your claim can not be supported.

Lets flip the coin... before Eve was created... was adam heterosexual?

A mutation of good genetic code due to the fall of man that allowed sin and evil to enter into the world and corrupt that which was once good. Same place diseases came from. I've told others to stop looking for this "gay gene" and here's why. If you find that there is indeed one, you will give ultra-conservative Christians a smoking gun. They have been saying for years there is something wrong with homosexuals, give them a gene that proves it and you will prove them right. You really wanna do that? Do you wanna admit that the Bible thumpers were right all along? Your defense of homosexuality with a gene, will only lead to a bigger question. If it is a gene that predisposes a person to this behavior, should that behavior be corrected? Also, will people want it corrected?

I don't fear truth. If there is an identifiable gene for homosexuality, lets bring on the science and diseminate the facts.

Should it be fixed? Different question for a different time, but personally, I don't believe in genetic modification for non life threatening conditions or traits.

But what I don't get... when the genes responsible are identified, how will that support the "ultra-conservative Christians "... surely it would be proof to them that God made us this way?

 

[mont974x4]

You prefer opinions with no basis for them over Scripture? I am far more concerned about that than your view on homosexuality at the moment for it places you in great danger.


The following verse is in God's Word for a reason
NASB
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.


All of the Bible is God's Word, even the parts that we struggle with, the parts that convict us, and the parts we try to run from. In this, we are all guilty at one time or another.


I am from a long line of drunks/alcoholics, that is not an excuse for my past sins. We are called to a higher standard.

 

[mont974x4]

All sin traits are life threatening. That is a key truth to the gospel.


NASB
Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 6:2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,
Rom 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;
Rom 6:7 for he who has died is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Rom 6:9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him.
Rom 6:10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 6:11 Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.
Rom 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,
Rom 6:13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:18 and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.
Rom 6:20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Rom 6:21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death.
Rom 6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

You prefer opinions with no basis for them over Scripture? I am far more concerned about that than your view on homosexuality at the moment for it places you in great danger.

What baseless opinion have I put forward?

The following verse is in God's Word for a reason
NASB
2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

A. Written by PAUL... so, saying "Paul's word is God's word because Paul says"... is a little... conflict of interest-ed
B. Paul was not refering to his own writings when he wrote that

All of the Bible is God's Word, even the parts that we struggle with, the parts that convict us, and the parts we try to run from. In this, we are all guilty at one time or another.

I contend that no, NOT all of the Bible is God's word.

Not even Paul makes that claim, why do you?

All sin traits are life threatening. That is a key truth to the gospel.

Great. Homosexuality isn't life threatening, therefore isn't a sin, right?

As for the huge chunk of uncomentated Bible verse... pass.

I've read it myself a few times, and am quite capable of re-reading passages I feel I may need to meditate on. Just cut and pasting vast chunks of it in seeming random fashion doesn't help your case.

 

[mont974x4]

May the Lord open our eyes and ears and soften our hearts to His Truth and help us set aside our ideas of truth in order that we may all Glorify Him with our lives as we grow in holiness. Amen

 

[MrPirate]

There is no homosexual gene....unless you think there is a sin gene?

There is no black gene
There is no blue eyed gene
There is no left handed gene
There is no red haired gene
There is no Hispanic gene

Yet all these things are inborn…just like sexual orientation

 

[MrPirate]

if you believe that adam and eve were the only 2 humans on earth at the time, its impossible for them to be homosexual. Asexual is a possibility though, but how could adam know he was homosexual if he never saw another man?

So if all the women on earth were to suddenly die…you would automatically become a homosexual?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

May the Lord open our eyes and ears and soften our hearts to His Truth and help us set aside our ideas of truth in order that we may all Glorify Him with our lives as we grow in holiness. Amen

thats nice.

Now... care to address any of the above comments, on topic?

Before Eve was created, did Adam have a sexual orientation?

 

[mont974x4]

They have been addressed, you seem to simply refuse to see it, accept it, or simply dodge it. The Scriptures do apply, but you don't accept Scripture (by your own admission). The baseless claims of Adam and Eve or David and Jonathon possibly being homosexual have been asked to be validated, but ignored.


I'm not sure what else you want me to address.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

They have been addressed, you seem to simply refuse to see it, accept it, or simply dodge it. The Scriptures do apply, but you don't accept Scripture (by your own admission). The baseless claims of Adam and Eve or David and Jonathon possibly being homosexual have been asked to be validated, but ignored.


I'm not sure what else you want me to address.

I pointed out the passages that speak about David and Jonathon's sexuality.

Want me to do it again?

As for Adam and Eve, I'm not saying they WERE homosexual, just that... no... wait... check that... this far and no further... if we believe in a literal Adam and Eve, with their inbred incestuous children and all, then one of them, at least WAS homosexual. Absolutely definately. Without doiubt, at least ONE of them had to be carrying the genes that express as homosexual traits.

Take your pick. Adam and Eve are not real historical people, OR either or both of them was at least carrying a recessive "gay gene". If there is a third alternative, please enlighten me, but I just don't see it.

 

[mont974x4]

Nothing says David and Jonathon were gay, no matter how people want to twist it so that it does.


There is no reason to think that one of Adam and Eve's kids were gay. There is no proof, just as there is no proof that there is a gay gene. Just as there is no biblical passage that shows a homosexual relationship being good or godly.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Nothing says David and Jonathon were gay, no matter how people want to twist it so that it does.

its not a matter of twisting anything... the text says they would kiss each other on the mouth, they loved each other more than any woman, they had to sneak around to avoid detection, and Jonathon's father wanted to kill David because he didn't approve of his son's relationship with him.

Thats not proof, sure... but its COMPELLING...

There is no reason to think that one of Adam and Eve's kids

Yes there is. Where else does homosexuality come from.

There is no proof, just as there is no proof that there is a gay gene.

Um, well actually, in science there is no such thing as "proof" per ce... only evidence. And there is lots of EVIDENCE that there is a genetic component to homosexuality.

Just as there is no biblical passage that shows a homosexual relationship being good or godly.

no bible passage that says it isn't either.

 

[mont974x4]

Actually that is not why Saul wanted David killed and is not why David had to sneak around.


Speculation is a far cry from evidence and proof. Regardless, we are to put off the old man, for he is crucified with Christ and we are new creations....free from sin and the flesh.


You have chosen to ignore or twist Bible passages that speak against homosexuality. I won't go in circles with you on that anymore. We both know exactly where each other stands on the issue.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Actually that is not why Saul wanted David killed and is not why David had to sneak around.

riiiight... who is lacking "proof" now?

You have chosen to ignore or twist Bible passages that speak against homosexuality. I won't go in circles with you on that anymore. We both know exactly where each other stands on the issue.

I'm not ignoring or twisting anything. YOU are the one hell bent on ignoring the fact the Bible never says anything against the sort of relationship I am in.

 

[mont974x4]

Read 1 and 2 Samuel again.
1. Saul had a tormenting spirit
2. Saul knew his kingdom would end and the line would be through David, not him
3. Saul knew the people loved David more than they loved him
4. No proof David and Jonathon were gay and no proof that Saul had an issue with their friendship the way you suggest.


The fact is when the Bible talks of marriage it is always between a man and a woman. The fact is any sex outside of that relationship is a sin...whether gay or straight. I am not ignoring anything.

 

[Zecryphon]

its not a matter of twisting anything... the text says they would kiss each other on the mouth, they loved each other more than any woman, they had to sneak around to avoid detection, and Jonathon's father wanted to kill David because he didn't approve of his son's relationship with him.

Thats not proof, sure... but its COMPELLING...Yes there is. Where else does homosexuality come from.Um, well actually, in science there is no such thing as "proof" per ce... only evidence. And there is lots of EVIDENCE that there is a genetic component to homosexuality.no bible passage that says it isn't either.

"its not a matter of twisting anything... the text says they would kiss each other on the mouth,"

Kissing is a common social custom for the Jewish people of that time.

"they loved each other more than any woman,"

Quite possible. How many kids consider their best friend more interesting than girls.

"they had to sneak around to avoid detection, and Jonathon's father wanted to kill David because he didn't approve of his son's relationship with him."

Do you have some scriptures?

 

[EnemyPartyII]

Kissing is a common social custom for the Jewish people of that time.

right. So common that it needs to be specially mentioned in the Bible.

Quite possible. How many kids consider their best friend more interesting than girls.

kids maybe. Teenage heterosexual young men? I think not.

Do you have some scriptures?

1 and 2 Samuel, apparently

 

[Zecryphon]

try reading what I said.

I never asserted Michael Collins, or indeed anyone else in the Apollo 11 crew was homosexual.

What I SAID was... "whatever Collin's sexuality, he was that sexuality even when he was a zillion miles from the nearest possible fellow participant"

OK?Lets flip the coin... before Eve was created... was adam heterosexual?I don't fear truth. If there is an identifiable gene for homosexuality, lets bring on the science and diseminate the facts.

Should it be fixed? Different question for a different time, but personally, I don't believe in genetic modification for non life threatening conditions or traits.

But what I don't get... when the genes responsible are identified, how will that support the "ultra-conservative Christians "... surely it would be proof to them that God made us this way?

"Lets flip the coin... before Eve was created... was adam heterosexual?"

There's no way to tell. There was no one else around for Adam to be attracted to. All you have is speculation, but that's not grounds upon which to build a case that Adam could have been gay. You need some evidence. You don't have any. God is the creator of Adam. You can ask Him after you die whether or not Adam was straight or gay.
Quote:
A mutation of good genetic code due to the fall of man that allowed sin and evil to enter into the world and corrupt that which was once good. Same place diseases came from. I've told others to stop looking for this "gay gene" and here's why. If you find that there is indeed one, you will give ultra-conservative Christians a smoking gun. They have been saying for years there is something wrong with homosexuals, give them a gene that proves it and you will prove them right. You really wanna do that? Do you wanna admit that the Bible thumpers were right all along? Your defense of homosexuality with a gene, will only lead to a bigger question. If it is a gene that predisposes a person to this behavior, should that behavior be corrected? Also, will people want it corrected?
"I don't fear truth. If there is an identifiable gene for homosexuality, lets bring on the science and diseminate the facts."

Go ahead. How long have you been looking for that gene? Does it exist or not?

"Should it be fixed? Different question for a different time, but personally, I don't believe in genetic modification for non life threatening conditions or traits."

Okay.

"But what I don't get... when the genes responsible are identified, how will that support the "ultra-conservative Christians "... surely it would be proof to them that God made us this way?"

What did I tell you that the ultra-conservatives have been saying about gay people? That you're different and that there is something wrong with you. You bring them a gene that is responsible for this, and you will confirm what they've been saying all along. There is something wrong with homosexual people. They have a corrupt gene.

 

[EnemyPartyII]

The fact is when the Bible talks of marriage it is always between a man and a woman.

So? Are you saying that only things the Bible specifically mentions are appropriate, and its wrong to extrapolate the same principals into situations the Bible doesn't adequately cover?

The fact is any sex outside of that relationship is a sin...whether gay or straight.

I more or less agree...

But look, lets cut the semantics, what do you think "sin" is, exactly?

For me, sin is an action that God has told us to refrain from because it will harm us or others, or disrespects Him.

Thats it. Thats all I think sin is... and Jesus new commandment is what I base this on.

I don't think sin is about a bunch of arbitrary rules made up by God to be legalistically invoked to the detriment of people... the rulkes are meant to HELP us... not HURT us... why are you so keen to hurt people?

 

[Zecryphon]

right. So common that it needs to be specially mentioned in the Bible.kids maybe. Teenage heterosexual young men? I think not.1 and 2 Samuel, apparently

"right. So common that it needs to be specially mentioned in the Bible."

Many social customs of that time are mentioned in the Bible. The washing of feet is one. Because Jesus washed the feet of His disciples, does that mean Jesus had a foot fetish? No.
Quote:
Quite possible. How many kids consider their best friend more interesting than girls.
"kids maybe. Teenage heterosexual young men? I think not."

I still consider teeanagers kids. The teenage years are a time of transition. Alot of kids who think they are gay today, first say they are in their teenage years. You don't have your entire identity figured out when you're a teenager.
Quote:
Do you have some scriptures?
"1 and 2 Samuel, apparently"

Thank you. Time to read those in context.