Homosexuality: Right or Wrong? (read pg1)

[Fireinfolding]

Yep...that's what I was getting at.

Im sorry bro, I misread a paragraph of yours, your right you were.

I havent been too sharp lately lol

 

[Dorothea]

I believe the act of homosexuality is a sin.

 

[Fireinfolding]

I believe the act of homosexuality is a sin.

I have the same conviction.

 

[OllieFranz]

Did this thread just emerge full grown like Athena from the head (although some version say the thigh) of Zeus, or was it moved here from another forum? Isn't there supposed to be a mod hat when a thread is moved?

In any case let me catch up with what you have posted already, and I'll respond.

 

[Fireinfolding]

Did this thread just emerge full grown like Athena from the head (although some version say the thigh) of Zeus, or was it moved here from another forum? Isn't there supposed to be a mod hat when a thread is moved?

In any case let me catch up with what you have posted already, and I'll respond.

It was unfortunately moved out of the forum of preference lol

 

[OllieFranz]

Homosexuality is spoken of as being an abomination numerous times. Therefore, I believe that God hates homosexual lifestyles, too.

Twice (Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13) "Lying with a male" is called "toevah" (ritually taboo), just like eating non kosher meat.The KJV does translate "toevah" as abomination, and it does so almost everywhere it appears. God does not hate pork. Most of the commands in the middle of Leviticus ("The Holiness Code") were given to mark the Jews as a separate people and were never binding on the Gentiles, including the "Righteous Gentile," and which Christians in particular are exempted (Acts 11; Acts 15; Romans (passim); 1 Corinthians 8-10; Galatians (passim).

 

[OllieFranz]

The quotations from Leviticus do indeed intimate that God forbids homosexual love from the people of the law. We christians, however, are not required to keep the levitical law. There are just whole huge bunches of those laws that we regularly and flagrantly violate, and that's okay. They aren't for us. They're for Israel.

That is basically correct (see my post above).

The Romans passage (if you read it in its entirety) indicates that homosexual inclinations are a punishment for sin, not that they are themselves sinful.

Actually, that passage is about uncontrolled passion, and only incidently about same-sex relations. Paul was quoting a passage from Plato's Laws, and Plato's viewpoint character (the Athenian) used a same-sex example to tease one of the other characters, a Cretan. On Crete, they particularly worshipped Ganymede (Catamitos) as the eromenos of Zeus.

The slavery to their uncontrolled passion is what we today would call sexual addiction, and like any addiction, carries its own punishment.

 

[OllieFranz]

It's wrong, but it isn't the super sin that many make it out to be.

NASB
1Co 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
1Co 6:10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
1Co 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.
1Co 6:13 Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both of them. Yet the body is not for immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord is for the body.
1Co 6:14 Now God has not only raised the Lord, but will also raise us up through His power.
1Co 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take away the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? May it never be!
1Co 6:16 Or do you not know that the one who joins himself to a prostitute is one body with her? For He says, "THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH."
1Co 6:17 But the one who joins himself to the Lord is one spirit with Him.
1Co 6:18 Flee immorality. Every other sin that a man commits is outside the body, but the immoral man sins against his own body.
1Co 6:19 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own?
1Co 6:20 For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body.

The word at the end of verse 9 is "arsenokoites" a word that only appears in two of Pauls letters and six or eight other early Christian writings influnced by those letters. Neither are there any contextual clues to help determine the best way to translate the word. Our best guess is that Paul was referring to those who "lie with a male," referring back to the Leviticus commandments. The LXX translates those verses using the phrase "arsenos koitên." If so, only Jews can commit this sin. Which may be why Paul used a word that the Jewish Christians could work out, but that would be confusing for the Gentile Christians. Instead of any of the existing Greek words he could have used.

Rember we are to deny our flesh and walk in the Spirit as new creatures/creations. Check Romans chapters 6-8.

True. And concerning sex in particular, Paul says:
[bible]1 Corinthians 7:8[/bible]
But then he adds:
[bible]1 Corinthians 7:9[/bible]
Because the sex drive is so strong, only a few people can overcome it. So it must be channelled into morally acceptable activity.
Once married, however, continued denial is not fair to one's spouse:
[bible]1 Corinthians 7:3-5[/bible]

 

[OllieFranz]

Sounds a bit like a slave to ones own lusts toward what is unatural (even among men). A prisoner (of sorts) locked up, given over to it and to the feeling and the penalty of ones conscience?

You know...Im feeling this one out actually. For me, it was the Spirits conviction (in me) which convinced me otherwise and the power of God to deliver me "from" something "similiar".

It's a description of addiction, which carries its own punishment.

 

[OllieFranz]

Yeah being a drunkard and chasing women made me a man I didn't want to know.


Thank God for HIs love and patience.

Amen bro I hear you We all been there in one place or another. One thing I knew (in me) was the emptiness I felt being led by lust, its a very powerful thing (feeling). That I do recall. Unfortunately (after its satisfied) theres nothing left in it afterwards. At least there wasnt for me, only "the next time" I could give myself over to it.

But what had happened (to me) was that I appeared to spiral down to lower forms of degrading myself and experimentation.

When you are "there" the lust itself does appear to rule over you. Even if I wanted to say no (in my mind, knowing better) I honestly felt I could not (torn in two) it felt like. It was very powerful, that much I do know.

Thats why what was posted concerning being "given over to it" (as a punishment in itself) made some sense (in my own mind) and experience.

I think we all have experimented with things (in some way) either sexually or with drugs (or whichever). But I never felt it was ok (within me) my flesh did that much was clear to my own conscience with which I need to be honest with.

Praise God is right bro

Praise God indeed, who can deliver us from all of our addictions and sins.

 

[Zecryphon]

God making them male and female and joining these two as one is a basis for something isnt it? Showing (at least) in the foundation (before all things) its not male and male, but male and female (at least there) I would think. Other then that I'd say love for one another.

"God making them male and female and joining these two as one is a basis for something isnt it? Showing (at least) in the foundation (before all things) its not male and male, but male and female (at least there) I would think. Other then that I'd say love for one another."

We have a misunderstanding. I was asking basically, what defines the homosexual lifestyle? It's a term that is always thrown out there, but isn't really appropriate as the life of a homosexual person is only radically different from that of a heterosexual person in the area of sexuality. Every other aspect of life is pretty much the same. What defines the heterosexual lifestyle? A lifestyle is not confined to choice of sexual partner. So, now that we understand my question, does anyone have an answer?

 

[Fireinfolding]

"God making them male and female and joining these two as one is a basis for something isnt it? Showing (at least) in the foundation (before all things) its not male and male, but male and female (at least there) I would think. Other then that I'd say love for one another."

We have a misunderstanding. I was asking basically, what defines the homosexual lifestyle? It's a term that is always thrown out there, but isn't really appropriate as the life of a homosexual person is only radically different from that of a heterosexual person in the area of sexuality. Every other aspect of life is pretty much the same. What defines the heterosexual lifestyle? A lifestyle is not confined to choice of sexual partner. So, now that we understand my question, does anyone have an answer?

Ok, I dont know... I dont think they do anything different from anyone else except have sex with the same sex. I dont get the term either to be perfectly honest.

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Fireinfolding]

It's a description of addiction, which carries its own punishment.

Is addiction another word for lust?

 

[Fireinfolding]

Praise God indeed, who can deliver us from all of our addictions and sins.

After He's given one over to it (and the power) He sure can do anything (like deliver one from its power). Sure He can

 

[JayJay77]

Now, there are two really good arguments that the "christian-gay" community have:

1) that sodom and gomorrah's homosexuality was not the same as that of today, which is more faithful to one partner vs. gang rape, and multiple people. The argument is that a faithful relationship with the same gender is not lust, but commitment.

And 2) that the "unnatural" argument Romans throws out is targeting heterosexuals who change to homosexuals; thus, not condemning the homosexual "born" that way.

I'm pretty sure they'd say that 1 Cor. 6:9's word of "homosexuality" is the greek word: malakos, which means (according to a greek-english dictionary) limber, soft, smooth, mild...not necessarily "homosexual." Other translations say "effeminate," which really does mean "lady like," but the argument is over the translation of greek to english.

 

[JayJay77]

Time-out, here.
Let me remind us all that this is defenitely NOT a "gay-bashing" thread here. The Bible says to "speak the truth in love." Although we're working on the "truth" part of it now, let us not forget the motive.

I have friends in my congregation that are gay, and I love them. I don't agree with their lifestyle, and if the opportunity should ever arise, I want to be able to show scripture with love.

Anyway, time-in!

 

[OllieFranz]

Is addiction another word for lust?

[BIBLE]2 Peter 2:9[/BIBLE]

Not exactly. Lust is the original passion. Repeatedly giving into it leads to sexual addiction -- a condition where one is no longer able to to resist it. Just as with chmical addictions such as alcoholism and drug addiction. At that point, one needs outside assistence to break the cycle.

Other outside help (such as 12 step programs) can assist you to avoid situations of temptation, but only the renewing of your mind that comes from the Holy Spirit can restore the ability to resist. (But still it is a life-long effort, and one should still choose to avoid the temptation rather than to actively seek to confront it whenever possible.)

[BIBLE]2 Timothy 2:19-22[/BIBLE]

 

[Fireinfolding]

[bible]2 Peter 2:9[/bible]

Not exactly. Lust is the original passion. Repeatedly giving into it leads to sexual addiction -- a condition where one is no longer able to to resist it. Just as with chmical addictions such as alcoholism and drug addiction. At that point, one needs outside assistence to break the cycle.

Other outside help (such as 12 step programs) can assist you to avoid situations of temptation, but only the renewing of your mind that comes from the Holy Spirit can restore the ability to resist. (But still it is a life-long effort, and one should still choose to avoid the temptation rather than to actively seek to confront it whenever possible.)

[bible]2 Timothy 2:19-22[/bible]

So God gave them over to their addictions? (or temptations?) rather then their lusts?

I hate when someone throws in a new word into the mix (like above) concerning "lifestyle" lol

Addictions are not lusts? (which are desires for)?

Peace

Fireinfolding

 

[Fireinfolding]

Now, there are two really good arguments that the "christian-gay" community have:

1) that sodom and gomorrah's homosexuality was not the same as that of today, which is more faithful to one partner vs. gang rape, and multiple people. The argument is that a faithful relationship with the same gender is not lust, but commitment.

And 2) that the "unnatural" argument Romans throws out is targeting heterosexuals who change to homosexuals; thus, not condemning the homosexual "born" that way.

Where does it show in scripture anywhere of two men or two women coming together as Gods natural intended use for their bodies?

In Sodom Lot offered his daughters to that which the men sought of the men, if it was gang only that was wicked why did Lot offer the exchange?

See what Im asking?

 

[Zecryphon]

The quotations from Leviticus do indeed intimate that God forbids homosexual love from the people of the law. We christians, however, are not required to keep the levitical law. There are just whole huge bunches of those laws that we regularly and flagrantly violate, and that's okay. They aren't for us. They're for Israel.

The Romans passage (if you read it in its entirety) indicates that homosexual inclinations are a punishment for sin, not that they are themselves sinful.

"The quotations from Leviticus do indeed intimate that God forbids homosexual love from the people of the law. We christians, however, are not required to keep the levitical law."

Actually the verses seem to say that God forbids the action, not the love. And the 10 Commandments act as a mirror, a curb and guide for the Christian. The other aspects of the Mosaic law we are not required to keep. We are not even required to keep the 10 Commandments, in terms of salvation, they are only there to point us to our need for a savior in Jesus Christ.

"There are just whole huge bunches of those laws that we regularly and flagrantly violate, and that's okay. They aren't for us. They're for Israel."

There are 603 other laws. The purpose of the law was not abolished or done away with with Christ's sacrifice for us. Without the law, the greatness of God's grace and mercy are robbed of their meaning. It's just not as sweet, people don't appreciate it as fully as they do when they realize why they need it.

"The Romans passage (if you read it in its entirety) indicates that homosexual inclinations are a punishment for sin, not that they are themselves sinful."

If that's correct why would you wish to inflict such a punishment upon yourself? Especially one, that God Himself considers an abomination?