homosexuality is an abomination

Icystwolf said:

What profession do you have, that would allow me to see whether your argument is based on your field of research or by just personal opinions because you emotionally feel it's the truth.

Bisexual is still part homosexual. And let me not, people don't switch, it takes time to change.

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I am not a professional sex therapist, a geneticist, a psychiatrist nor a medical doctor.

Please forget everything I have said. I was wrong.

And I loved that 'bisexual is still part homosexual' thing. Hilarious. Reminds me of when some folks point out that someone who is only part black is still all black.

Arikay said:

Hmmm, well you said those funny magic words "worthy site" that really makes me question how much you will believe anything I reply with, since anything you dont like could imediatly be deemed an "unworth site"

However

from http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_exod1.htm
"From the available data, four studies reported a "success" rate during conversion therapy of 0.4%, 0.0%, 0.0 and* 0.04%. That is, conversion therapy has a failure rate in excess of 99.5% during each study."

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I'm talking about the study of the whole picture, not just conversion therapy through force.

Firscherscherling said:

So you are saying that, because they fear being 'come onto' that hate crimes perpetrators seek out homosexuals in order to victimize them? For example,the guys who killed Sheppard thought they might be come on to. So, they went to a gay bar, pretended to be gay, picked him up, took him out tied him to a post and beat him to death.......

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No, the people that beat Sheppard to death is as guilty as a murderer. Their fear is that they might be "come onto". The main reason for hate crimes is Homophobia not Christianity. Homophobia is present in people, just as homosexuality is present in some people. The existance of homophobia extends to not just Christians, but muslims, atheists and all sorts of cultures.

The only time we fear homosexuality is when someone gets raped homosexually. Which is why there are laws that protect citizens, from those pesky gays that walk around the beach, and ask if theres anyone that want to do it in the public toilets. The other gay people are of no danger, unlike these pesky ones, but it's these pesky gay's reputation that scares the **** out of people on the beach who just want some quiet times, rather than some guy just wanting a quicky staring at them. Happens every year in Sydney during summer.

Firscherscherling said:

I am not a professional sex therapist, a geneticist, a psychiatrist nor a medical doctor.

Please forget everything I have said. I was wrong.

And I loved that 'bisexual is still part homosexual' thing. Hilarious. Reminds me of when some folks point out that someone who is only part black is still all black.

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Firsch....comeon, that is just plain racist.

refuting something is onething, but to bring up colour in people is ....

Think of another analogy quick and change it before the moderator bans you.

I'll change this post as well.

Icystwolf said:

Your allegations are upon your own interpertation, make sense of your own thoughts and have them distinguished with my thoughts before you make anymore allegations that sound so ridiculous, that it's not worth my time probing your ideas about me.

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So, you don't comprehend what I'm saying well enough to respond?

Icystwolf said:

And also, I'm not arrogrant or ignorant, I read up a lot of information before I give my opinion, your statement is completely based on the fact that I think homosexuality is an abdomination. If I find a report that proves gays are gays from birth, and the standards of procedure is met, then my opinion would change.

In summary, stop making personal attacks of something in me that don't exist!

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I have no interest in finding any articles, because I do not think you would believe anything that contradicts your position. You dismiss the personal testimony of gay people themselves as lies; what would you think of any given scientific study? I'm sure you'd think all the scientists were lying, too.

So you are saying that, because they fear being 'come onto' that hate crimes perpetrators seek out homosexuals in order to victimize them? For example,the guys who killed Sheppard thought they might be come on to. So, they went to a gay bar, pretended to be gay, picked him up, took him out tied him to a post and beat him to death.......

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You have quite a talent for twisting everything I say, there does not necessarily have to be only one reason for gay hate crime. I don't see anywhere in the news report I just read about it that claimed the death was related to religious beliefs. There was some pretty disturbing stuff in there about some churches almost supporting the actions of the killers because of their extreme views of homosexuals, but again you can not speak for all Christians with the words of a few.

You answered your own question. Condemning a private non-harmful act for no good reason is teaching hatred.

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Actually, no I didnt. I was just making that distinction because no one knows what causes homosexuality, so in and of itself it should not be condemned. The fact that it is sinful if a good enough reason to condemn it.

Well, I can start with Leviticus where we are told to kill them.

Then I can go to the Southern Baptist churches I attended as a child where the preacher told us very clearly that the f-a-g-g-o-t-s were abominations.

Then I can go to the conversations I have had time and again with Chhristians who support the same ideas.

Then there are the visits to Louisiana where my wife's family members discuss such matters openly and promote and teach the hatred to their children.

I even remember Christians like Anita Bryant and her very public crusade against gays.

Shall we discuss Jerry Fallwell?

How about our illustrious Senator Santorum, a leader who compared gays to child molesters.

The doctrine teaches it, the leaders teach it, the congregations teach it, the public figures teach it, the politicians teach it, and the folks on this board teach it. You all consider youselves teachers do you not? Part of your purpose is to spread the doctrine, no?

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I do not know the of the circumstances behind much of what you are talking about, so I can't really go into detail. But if these people are condemning homosexuality then I agree with them...if they are somehow attempting to say that homosexuals are second-hand citizens, if they are trying to say that homosexuals are an abomination and should be treated as such then I would say that that makes me sad. There are thousands and thousands of different religions, we are not all of one mind. And I do not claim there are not problems with different religions as far as moral teaching goes. But you can not say that religion as a whole teaches hatred and violence against homosexuals because you know that isnt true. Hatred and violence are against just about every major Christian ideal.

So, again, where outside of religious teaching is homosexuality held out as an abomination?

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Im not answering it because the question is by and large unfair. What else outside of Religion is even capable of making such authoritative statements? The government? It is not their place to do so. Religion is the only authority that would make moral statements in this matter. All you are doing is twisting the belief that homosexuality is immoral into some sort of hatred for gay PEOPLE. Again what major religion teaches hatred and violence?

If you want another situation in which gay violence might occur Ill give you one: A guy goes out with someone he thinks he is a girl. They start to become intamate and he realizes it is not a girl but is really a guy. I have heard of this exact situation happening before and I guarantee such a violation of sexuality could easily result in violence.

The thing I am taking issue with is the fact that you say gay violence and hatred is the direct result of Religion. It is stipulated that their are radical religious groups that would promote gay violence. It is also stipulated that certain individuals would use religion as a reason to justify their own behavior. However, again no major religion teaches hatred or violence but rather just the opposite. Therefore it is extremely unfair to say that to say that hatred and violence are in any taught by religion.

Again, remove the religious threat, and what about homosexuality is threatening exactly? Do you fear being raped? - because that is not a gay trait. I just don't see the threat of which you speak. What is it?

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I already explained this, it would be easy for your sexuality to feel violated by a person of the same sex who is attracted to people of the same sex.. Whether that is fair or not is not the issue, but it does happen.
Maybe you are to a certain degree correct. If religion was removed there might be less anti-gay sentiment although I guarantee it would still be present and hate crime would not end. However, that doesnt make it wrong to condemn sinful action. Homophobic Christians may just be an unfortunate effect of upholding moral integrity. Nothing that is sinful will ever be accepted as right...to twist that into the direct cause of hate and violence is the abomination within this thread.

Icystwolf: Why do you act as if you are some sort of authority on the matter of whether or not gays are born that way? Please show me how your arguments are based on anything besides your own emotions since you are springing that question on others. You claim to have done extensive research and yet your arguments are barely coherent and you have nothing to say to prove your opinions besides that you and a friend switched. But I agree with Philosoft in that matter, he stated it better than I could.

Firsch....comeon, that is just plain racist.

refuting something is onething, but to bring up colour in people is ....

Think of another analogy quick and change it before the moderator bans you.

I'll change this post as well.

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He was not being racist. You just see the word black and automatically come to that conclusion. Try actually reading the posts.

Homosexuality is no worse than any other sin. I'm sometimes astonished when I hear guys talking, and blasting HS; but in nearly the same breath brag about all the girls they've slept with. (?!) Though I've never been attracted to my gender, I've done plenty to get me a ticket to Hell; we all have.

RE "twisting" and "racist" and "lies" and "ingorance" --- can we keep the discussion civil? What often happens, is that a moderator or something will READ the posts, and if he (or she) thinks it's getting too heated the thread will be CLOSED for a day or so, and if it doesn't improve the thread gets closed permanently.

We can disagree, and still respect each other and treat each other with kindness. If someone says something insulting to you, RISE ABOVE it; repay anger and hatred with kindness and love.

S'allright?

Icystwolf said:

Homophobia is present in people, just as homosexuality is present in some people. The existance of homophobia extends to not just Christians, but muslims, atheists and all sorts of cultures.

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Yes but Christianity is the only Religion that tries to excuse homophobia by pretending their God frowns upon it (to the best of my knowledge, I could be wrong though)

Think about it, whoever made up Religion was pbviously homophobic and decided he'd (or her, God knows who thought up Christianity) include being homophobic in his Religion so that whoever joined his faith would need to be homophobic. And now he has created millions of homopboes who senselessly hate gay people.

Icystwolf said:

The only time we fear homosexuality is when someone gets raped homosexually. Which is why there are laws that protect citizens, from those pesky gays that walk around the beach, and ask if theres anyone that want to do it in the public toilets. The other gay people are of no danger, unlike these pesky ones, but it's these pesky gay's reputation that scares the **** out of people on the beach who just want some quiet times, rather than some guy just wanting a quicky staring at them. Happens every year in Sydney during summer.

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Now that is just ignorant, there are a ton of straight people who do the exact same thing.

draper said:

Yes but Christianity is the only Religion that tries to excuse homophobia by pretending their God frowns upon it (to the best of my knowledge, I could be wrong though)

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Ummm....no. As far as I know Taoism also condems homosexuals. And also most Muslims also condems homosexuality, don't see you guys complaining to them.

And how do you know if God is frowning on them or not? Have you spoken to God? God obviously is against homosexuality, else he wouldn't have destroyed Sodom

draper said:

Think about it, whoever made up Religion was pbviously homophobic and decided he'd (or her, God knows who thought up Christianity) include being homophobic in his Religion so that whoever joined his faith would need to be homophobic. And now he has created millions of homopboes who senselessly hate gay people.

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Excuse me draper, but it's not just one writer in the Bible. Clearly anyone with education standards would realise that a person cannot live over 6000 or 8000 years and hence write the whole Bible.

Homophobia is not created from Christianity, it's natural for people to be afraid of the abnormal. If a person has a deformed face from birth, unless the people actually know the person, the general instincts makes us fear the abnormal.
Homophobia existed in China, and was delt with way harsher than any of todays standards. I shouldn't mention the torture the homosexuals suffered, before meeting their deaths.

Icystwolf said:

What logic is there? How do you know that the few you call might be of a majority, except they don't admit to it. How do you know if theres a large number of heteros that were gay before, but never practised it?

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I don't, but I have an idea what's more likely true.

Again, you don't know that full statistics and neither do I. If this person who has been practising homosexuality for 15yrs, and he's around 40yrs old now....and starting a family.

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I don't know what this means.

I'm still awaiting for the scientist to bring out a report that they found the homosexuality gene...otherwise it's still a choice taken during Highschool.

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News flash: there is no "homosexuality gene." Twin studies run about 40% correlation. Scientists have long since moved on to studying multiple causes - gene sequences, varying chemical levels during development, etc. You really ought to catch up.

First of all, logic is by no means a good enough argument, because all logic can be bent.

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Bent, huh? Okay, let's take a look.

My argument: Via various deterministic factors, some individuals have an innate sexual attraction to the same sex.

Your argument: All homosexuals are really heterosexual, but they pretend to be attracted to the same sex, possibly to consciously increase the stigma and scorn heaped upon them by certain groups.

Yeah, I'd say there's some bending going on, but it ain't my logic.

Like the speed of light cannot be bent. But UNSW phys department has proved Einstein wrong.

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Unless there is some heretofore undiscovered 'speed of homosexuality,' your analogy bewilders.

Draper, other religions (including Judaism and Islam) condemn homosexuality as well. (Taoism does not, however). But both of you are right, in a way. Religions do tend to legitimize the prejudices and attitudes of the cultures that create them.

ifriit said:

So, you don't comprehend what I'm saying well enough to respond?



I have no interest in finding any articles, because I do not think you would believe anything that contradicts your position. You dismiss the personal testimony of gay people themselves as lies; what would you think of any given scientific study? I'm sure you'd think all the scientists were lying, too.

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I don't dismiss the personal testimony of gay people, I just don't find them acceptable as credible information. It's almost like myself saying I was gay at highschool, but I changed to become a heterosexual.

In truth, I've been single, and been heterosexual...this is the truth. What I said before was a lie.

Unless the gay gene has made gay people unable to lie, then yes, I would find their personal testimony as being credible. But how ridiculous does it sound just believing in one source.

And as for scientific study, they haven't found any gay gene. I haven't seen any deep analysis, of what makes a person gay. If you have a website...but you stated yourself your not interested(at least I'm not making allegations up)....show it to me and prove it. Like one of the pro-homo, who kindly suggested a website which enlightened me of some details that I failed to find previously.

And no I don't think all scientists are lying. My younger brother is going to be a scientist in two years time, and a couple of my friends are scientist. However did you get that statement must have been of some manifestation of anger.

If theres a scientific report on what makes a person gay, ie chemical imbalance, or improper chemical creation...whatever....then I'll think of where I'm going to stand. But what ever the case, it's still not accepted in the house of God.

Nathan David said:

Draper, other religions (including Judaism and Islam) condemn homosexuality as well. (Taoism does not, however). But both of you are right, in a way. Religions do tend to legitimize the prejudices and attitudes of the cultures that create them.

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Ummm....Taoism did condem homosexuality, brutally infact.
me.

In todays society, Taoism doesn't really exist anymore, theres no real religion behind that, which is why there dosen't seem to be any condemnation from taoists. But if you ask any Taoist templers, they do condem homosexuality.

The main source we have been using is the Bible, so I would like to use some actual scientific studies and facts.

1. Dr. J. Michael Bailey of Boston University School of Medicine, in 1991, performed a study to "prove" the biological theory by studying male twins. He found that if one identical twin is homosexual, then 52% of the time, so is the other. If the twin in non-identical, the figure drops to 22%. What does this mean? If homosexuality was due to genetics, every twin should of a homosexual should also be gay because they share the same exact genes. Why is the identical twin homosexuals higher than the non-identical twins? Because identical twins are often closer to one another. Because environment may be a factor, this study was poorly done because you would need to study twins raised apart, not together. Even Dr. Bailey admitted, "There must be something in the environment to yield the discordant twins."

2. Here are some quotes from "authorities" on this subject:
"No genetic factor-sexual or otherwise-has been found that would differentiate persons with homosexual tendencies from others." -Dr. Gerhard van den Aardweg
"The idea that people are born into one type of sexual behavior is foolish." -John DeCecco, editor of the pro-gay Journal of Homosexuality
"There's no possibility of someone developing homosexuality from hereditary or organic causes. It's just impossible." -Professor Charles Socarides, ALbert Einstein College of Medicine in New York

3. An objection for gays turning straight is that they were never truly gay to begin with. If you are physically intimate and have romantic (or even just sexual) relationships with a person of the same sex, you are gay. If you later decide that homosexuality is wrong and become straight, you have "converted" back to heterosexuality. Just because you have became straight, doesn't mean that you weren't gay in the first place.

4. A survey of gay men and lesbians by researchers Bell and Weinberg in the mid 1970s found that only 14% of gay males and 40% of lesbians were living in monogamous relationships. They learned that 43% of gay men had sex with over 500 different partners. 75% estimated over 100 partners and 28% estimated over 1,000 partners. 79% said over half of their partners were anonymous and 70% said more than half of their partners were men with whom they had sex only once. These men are obviously looking for something and they sure aren't finding it in homosexuality.

5. In 1984 the Institute for the Scientific Study of Sexuality conducted a review of almost all of the world's records of child molestation since 1952. They found that: Homosexuals were 12 times more likely to molest children than heterosexuals. Homosexual teacher were 7 times more likely to molest a student and estimated to have committed at least 25% of student molestations. 40% of molestation assaults were made by those who engage in homosexuality.

6. Alyson Publication publishes books to inform children that being gay is okay. These books include: "Daddy's Roommate," "Heather Has Two Mommies," and "Gloria Goes to Gay Prode." However, Alyson Publications also includes books like "Macho ****s," a collection of short stories including one in whoch a lesbian has sadomasochistic sex with her own 13 year old daughter; "The Age Taboo," an anthology of arguments in favor of sex with children' "Pedophilia: The Radical Case," which is recommended by NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association, which also is lobbying for the elimination or reducing of sexual age-of-consent laws); and "Gay Sex: A Manual for Men Who Love Men," which features a pedophilia section with recommendations for helping pedophiles deal with angry parents and police.

The gay life is not healthy and not natural. No study can consistently prove that being gay is a biological trait, but they can prove that it is not.

Yes, Jesus was friends with sinners, but he was there to CHANGE them. He did not accept their sin; he wanted to cleanse them of it. I try to set the best example I can to those around me. It is not discrimination to avoid close friendships with them or not want to be in their everyday life. Trying to preach to a gay is often like talking to a brick wall. They do not want to hear that they need to change.

Now please, tell me about these studies that prove homosexuality is a biological trait because I have yet to find a single one.

1. Dr. J. Michael Bailey of Boston University School of Medicine, in 1991, performed a study to "prove" the biological theory by studying male twins. He found that if one identical twin is homosexual, then 52% of the time, so is the other. If the twin in non-identical, the figure drops to 22%. What does this mean?

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It means there is a genetic component to homosexuality. If there wasn't, the numbers for identical twins should be similar to the numbers for non-identical twins.

By the way, I read "Macho ****s" and there is no such story involving a 13-year-old daughter.

Philosoft said:

I don't, but I have an idea what's more likely true.


I don't know what this means.

.

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Bending the ideas again. Oh boy here we go again. A person who was practising homosexuality for 10yrs with a partner...then degaied. Now has a family with his own genes, and a wife.

Philosoft said:

News flash: there is no "homosexuality gene." Twin studies run about 40% correlation. Scientists have long since moved on to studying multiple causes - gene sequences, varying chemical levels during development, etc. You really ought to catch up.
.

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Thanks for telling us that, which therefore proves that no one is born gay.

Chemical levels of the attraction of sex happen during puberty. So they become gay when they're in their teens.
And also, becareful with gene sequences....actually I find this a bit humerous. It's not the sequence of the gene that makes the differnce of each human being, but it's whats contained in the gene that makes the differences.
Technically, our genes are different to a chimpanzee's genes by the matter of sequence and slightly on information within it.

Hmm...a different gene sequence would mean, all homosexual people aren't humans afterall....hmmm......clearly that is false.....

Philosoft said:

Bent, huh? Okay, let's take a look.

My argument: Via various deterministic factors, some individuals have an innate sexual attraction to the same sex.

Your argument: All homosexuals are really heterosexual, but they pretend to be attracted to the same sex, possibly to consciously increase the stigma and scorn heaped upon them by certain groups.

Yeah, I'd say there's some bending going on, but it ain't my logic.
.

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Upon that theres no such thing as being born gay, then yes, I believe the argument that homosexuals are really heterosexuals is proven by the point above.

Philosoft said:

Unless there is some heretofore undiscovered 'speed of homosexuality,' your analogy bewilders.

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Wrong interpertation. All rules can be changed, nothing is impossible to do.

An indentical twin's genes are EXACT. If for some reason they had to have a paternity test because they slept with the same woman and she got pregnant, they would NOT be able to tell who the father is. DNA-wise, they are the SAME person. Identical twins are often closer to one another and treated more equally than non-identical twins. So their environment is almost EXACT as well. If genes were the thing that made someone gay or not, both identical twins would be gay or be straight.

Nathan David said:

By the way, I read "Macho ****s" and there is no such story involving a 13-year-old daughter.

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whats going on in here?