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Homosexuality is a sin.

GoodNewsJim

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I made an excerpt from my book on this topic. It may be a long read for a forum, but it is a short read for a book.

John 7:7(Jesus says) “The world cannot hate you, but it hates me, because I keep telling it that its ways are bad.”


My argument is powerful, but to accept it, you must believe in God and that the Bible is true. It is one of the more serious sins to not believe in God simply because he disapproves of something that you’ve made a habit of. It is serious because it can keep you separated from God for a very long time. You need to stop sinning and ask Jesus for forgiveness and he’ll grant you grace. If you’re not a Christian and you want to learn about God, go read other parts of this book and the Bible. If you are a Christian and you want to learn why homosexuality is a sin then this short chapter will explain it.


Galatians 3:19 "What, then, was the purpose of the Law? It was added in order to show what wrongdoing is..."


The Law is perfect. The Law explains what some sins are. If the Law says something is a sin then it is still a sin. The Law obviously doesn’t contain every sin. If something convicts your heart that it is a sin, yet you do it anyway then you are sinning. A man may argue that his heart does not convict him of a sin that is specifically said to be a sin in the Law. This man is wrong because every time the Law details something as a sin it is still a sin. This man can either chose to sin and reject God, or he can accept God and reject his sin.


Galatians 3:23-25 “But before the time for faith came, the Law kept us all locked up as prisoners until this coming faith should be revealed. And so the Law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put right with God through faith. Now that the time for faith is here, the Law is no longer in charge of us."


Through faith in Jesus we attempt to cease sinning. Through faith in Jesus we try to do good even though we are sinners. The cause of good is not easy, and that is why it requires faith. It is faith in Jesus that we try and serve God and not money. Good works require work. Charity requires sacrifice of time and/or money. Some people can't help others for various reasons, but they can still have faith in Jesus Christ. One of the Gospel's biggest messages is that we're supposed to travel forth in faith in Jesus Christ, and not seek redemption in the Law. The Law was perfect for its time, but now that Jesus died for us and rose back to Heaven, we're supposed to go onward with faith in him.






















Now, just for completeness sake, and to add a little filler to this book, I’ll try and play some Devil’s advocate that the enemy may do by twisting scriptural words to make the gay agenda fit with Christianity. I will then shoot down all the arguments I find.


Devil’s Advocate point #1) Galatians 5:18 ‘If the Spirit leads you, then you are not subject to the Law.’


Well that certainly sounds like it shoots down my whole argument in one line! Yet it doesn’t. In fact you could take it to mean that you can do anything you feel like doing: including breaking The Ten Commandments. It even sounds like the sort of exit verse that some Muslims use for committing terrorism. Of course this short verse doesn’t reverse the entirety of the Law.


Let us look in context of the passage.


Galatians 5:16-18 “What I say is this: let the Spirit direct your lives, and you will not satisfy the desires of the human nature. For what our human nature wants is opposed to what the Spirit wants, and what the Spirit wants is opposed to what our human nature wants. These two are enemies, and this means that you cannot do what you want to do. If the Spirit leads you, then you are not subject to the Law.”






Throughout the Bible, marriage is referred to as being between a man and a woman. Even Jesus’ relation with the Church is that between a man and a woman. While mainstream media would argue, sex outside of marriage is obeying our sinful human nature. There is no such thing as homosexual marriage in God’s eyes. In fact in the Old Testament homosexuality is referred to as being an abomination!
How could God approve of something he referred to as abomination? One could do work on Sunday to heal. One could disobey their parents if they’re pushing a fake religion. One could justify stealing if they need food or medicine for their family. One could even justify murder to save lives. There is not a justification for homosexuality. Just as the Bible says there is no justification for adultery.
If someone is gay, they are just obeying their human nature and are not following the Spirit. In fact they are opposed to the Spirit like the scripture quoted says, “For what our human nature wants is opposed to what the Spirit wants, and what the Spirit wants is opposed to what our human nature wants.” The Spirit is awesome. Who would want to be against the Spirit? Especially considering obeying our human desires is temporary where obeying God leads to great things.


Galatians 6:7-8 ”Do not deceive yourselves; no one makes a fool of God. A person will reap exactly what he plants. If he plants in the field of his natural desires, from it he will gather the harvest of death; if he plants in the field of the Spirit, from the Spirit he will gather the harvest of eternal life.”


All the so called homosexual “Christians” need to make a choice: Death as they try and pervert not only marriage but worship of Jesus as well or eternal life where they give up your homosexuality for the faith. The homosexuals that are pushing for gay marriage and perverted interpretation of the scriptures do not make a fool of God. But they may fool other believers who wouldn’t otherwise be homosexual. Do you know how much worse this is than if they were just homosexual and not spreading false teachings?


Luke 17:2”It would be better for him if a large millstone were tied around his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.”


Jesus is basically saying it’s better to die than to teach others that it is ok to sin!


Matthew 23:15"How terrible for you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees! You hypocrites! You sail the seas and cross whole countries to win one convert; and when you succeed, you make him twice as deserving of going to hell as you yourselves are!”


If the Pharisees are going to hell because they teach scripture incorrectly, how much worse will it be for people who teach the opposite of scripture?




What some people think is the Spirit leading them is actually their lack of a conscious to know right from wrong. Do they really have the Spirit leading them, or have they just lost all feeling of shame?


Ephesians 4:17 “In the Lord’s name, then, I warn you: do not continue to live like the heathen, whose thoughts are worthless and whose minds are in the dark. They have no part in the life that God gives, for they are completely ignorant and stubborn. They have lost all feeling of shame; they give themselves over to vice and do all sorts of indecent things without restraint.”




Devil’s Advocate point #2) Romans 10:4”For Christ has brought the Law to an end, so that everyone who believes is put right with God.”


This also sounds like the Law is no longer in effect. We need to be careful as using one line of scripture to reverse everything we know about God. Lets read more Romans.
Romans 1:18-32 “God's anger is revealed from heaven against all the sin and evil of the people whose evil ways prevent the truth from being known. God punishes them, because what can be known about God is plain to them, for God himself made it plain. Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all! They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness. They say they are wise, but they are fools; instead of worshiping the immortal God, they worship images made to look like mortals or birds or animals or reptiles. And so God has given those people over to do the filthy things their hearts desire, and they do shameful things with each other. They exchange the truth about God for a lie; they worship and serve what God has created instead of the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever! Amen. Because they do this, God has given them over to shameful passions. Even the women pervert the natural use of their sex by unnatural acts. In the same way the men give up natural sexual relations with women and burn with passion for each other. Men do shameful things with each other, and as a result they bring upon themselves the punishment they deserve for their wrongdoing. Because those people refuse to keep in mind the true knowledge about God, he has given them over to corrupted minds, so that they do the things that they should not do. They are filled with all kinds of wickedness, evil, greed, and vice; they are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, deceit, and malice. They gossip and speak evil of one another; they are hateful to God, insolent, proud, and boastful; they think of more ways to do evil; they disobey their parents; they have no conscience; they do not keep their promises, and they show no kindness or pity for others. They know that God's law says that people who live in this way deserve death. Yet, not only do they continue to do these very things, but they even approve of others who do them. “
I don’t think I need to even explain the above passage. It is so clear that there is no denying it.


1 Corinthians 6:9-10”Surely you know that the wicked will not possess God’s Kingdom. Do not fool yourselves; people who are immoral or who worship idols or are adulterers or homosexual perverts or who steal or are greedy or are drunkards or who slander others or ware thieves-none of these will possess God’s Kingdom.”


If you’re going to quote Paul on saying that he said that Christ took away the Law, you must also accept his other teachings. This teaching clearly says that homosexual perverts will not possess God’s Kingdom.
















I would like to address the Presbyterian Church as a whole for there is a division in it because some churches accept Christians that profess that being gay is ok with God. I want the Presbyterian Church to unite together with the doctrine that being gay is a sin.


Jude 1:17-21”But remember, my friends, what you were told in the past by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, “When the last days come, people will appear who will make fun of you, people who follow their own godless desires.” These are the people who cause divisions, who are controlled by their natural desires, who do not have the Spirit. But you, my friends, keep on building yourselves up on your most sacred faith. Pray in the power of the Holy Spirit, and keep yourselves in the love of God, as you wait for our Lord Jesus Christ in his mercy to give you eternal life.”


Romans 16:17”I urge you, my brothers: watch out for those who cause divisions and upset people’s faith and go against the teaching which you have received. Keep away from them! For those who do such things are not serving Christ our Lord, but their own appetites. By their fine words and flattering speech they deceive innocent people.”


1 Corinthians 5:12-13 “After all, it is none of my business to judge outsiders. God will judge them. But should you not judge the members of your own fellowship? As the scripture says, ‘Remove the evil man from your group.’”


The Bible convicts gays in no uncertain terms. As you can see I drew out just a handful of verses that condemn being gay as a sin. I didn’t even have to try hard to find them. Jesus is there so you don’t become lost in your sins. If you sin, you can ask for forgiveness. Jesus can forgive gays, but they must admit what they’re doing is a sin and want forgiveness for it.
 

OllieFranz

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John 7:7(Jesus says) “The world cannot hate you, but it hates me, because I keep telling it that its ways are bad.”


My argument is powerful, but to accept it, you must believe in God and that the Bible is true. It is one of the more serious sins to not believe in God simply because he disapproves of something that you’ve made a habit of. It is serious because it can keep you separated from God for a very long time. You need to stop sinning and ask Jesus for forgiveness and he’ll grant you grace. If you’re not a Christian and you want to learn about God, go read other parts of this book and the Bible.

You take a different approach than I would have taken , and rely on a different verse, so I would never have said quite what you say in this paragraph, but in general I find nothing much to disagree with....

If you are a Christian and you want to learn why homosexuality is a sin then this short chapter will explain it.

...Except for the last line. However this is your opening paragraph, and I will allow you to develop your thesis.


Galatians 3:19 "What, then, was the purpose of the Law? It was added in order to show what wrongdoing is..."


The Law is perfect. The Law explains what some sins are. If the Law says something is a sin then it is still a sin. The Law obviously doesn’t contain every sin. If something convicts your heart that it is a sin, yet you do it anyway then you are sinning. A man may argue that his heart does not convict him of a sin that is specifically said to be a sin in the Law. This man is wrong because every time the Law details something as a sin it is still a sin. This man can either chose to sin and reject God, or he can accept God and reject his sin.

Again I would not disagree with anything here. In fact I have often made many of the same points, except I referenced Romans 3:19-26, Romans 6:1-7, and Romans 14:22-23.
[bible]Romans 3:19-26[/bible]
[bible]Romans 6:1-7[/bible]
[bible]Romans 14:22-23[/bible]


Galatians 3:23-25 “But before the time for faith came, the Law kept us all locked up as prisoners until this coming faith should be revealed. And so the Law was in charge of us until Christ came, in order that we might then be put right with God through faith. Now that the time for faith is here, the Law is no longer in charge of us."


Through faith in Jesus we attempt to cease sinning. Through faith in Jesus we try to do good even though we are sinners. The cause of good is not easy, and that is why it requires faith. It is faith in Jesus that we try and serve God and not money. Good works require work. Charity requires sacrifice of time and/or money. Some people can't help others for various reasons, but they can still have faith in Jesus Christ. One of the Gospel's biggest messages is that we're supposed to travel forth in faith in Jesus Christ, and not seek redemption in the Law. The Law was perfect for its time, but now that Jesus died for us and rose back to Heaven, we're supposed to go onward with faith in him.

Again I would use Romans instead of Galatians, but the lesson is similar.
[bible]Romans 6:8-14[/bible]


Now, just for completeness sake, and to add a little filler to this book, I’ll try and play some Devil’s advocate that the enemy may do by twisting scriptural words to make the gay agenda fit with Christianity. I will then shoot down all the arguments I find.

OK I'll play along to see where you are leading.

Devil’s Advocate point #1) Galatians 5:18 ‘If the Spirit leads you, then you are not subject to the Law.’


Well that certainly sounds like it shoots down my whole argument in one line! Yet it doesn’t. In fact you could take it to mean that you can do anything you feel like doing: including breaking The Ten Commandments. It even sounds like the sort of exit verse that some Muslims use for committing terrorism. Of course this short verse doesn’t reverse the entirety of the Law.


Let us look in context of the passage.


Galatians 5:16-18 “What I say is this: let the Spirit direct your lives, and you will not satisfy the desires of the human nature. For what our human nature wants is opposed to what the Spirit wants, and what the Spirit wants is opposed to what our human nature wants. These two are enemies, and this means that you cannot do what you want to do. If the Spirit leads you, then you are not subject to the Law.”

OK I agree that that "Devil's advocate point" would be a false teaching. That the context is not that we have freedom to continue sinning, but that we are now free to follow our better instincts. Again, Paul says much the same thing to the Romans that he said to the Galatians.
[bible]Romans 6:14-18[/bible]

[strikeout]Why is this "Devil's advocate point #1" if thare are no other "Devil's advocate points"?[/strikeout]
Never mind. I see that you have a "second" "Devil's advocate's point" at the end of the post. Although it is really just a restating of this one, using a different scripture passage. Do you really believe that this strawman is the only argument against your position?

I will look at some real counter-arguments in a later post.


Throughout the Bible, marriage is referred to as being between a man and a woman. Even Jesus’ relation with the Church is that between a man and a woman. While mainstream media would argue, sex outside of marriage is obeying our sinful human nature. There is no such thing as homosexual marriage in God’s eyes. In fact in the Old Testament homosexuality is referred to as being an abomination!

OK this is where you start to lose me. Examples of marriage are given in the Bible, but they are not all "One man, one woman marriages. Nor is marriage actually defined nor (other than forbidding incest and recommending against [religiously] mixed marriages) are guidelines given on who to or not to marry. Marriage in the OT is considered a civil contract, not a religious rite.

Christ as the Bridegroom is an illustration of a principle that paints a picture. The Church is a bride, not another bridegroom, partly because this is not a pairing of equals, nor were many male-female relationships 2000 years ago.

As for what Leviticus 18:22 considers to be an abomination, and evenwhat it means by abomination, I'll look at that below when I comment on the verse. But you might want also look at my response to your next line.

How could God approve of something he referred to as abomination?

So are unclean animals still an "abomination" (toevah -- the same word used in Leviticus 18:22 an 20:13)[see Deuteronomy 14:3ff], and does God still disapprove of them? Do you discount Acts 10-11, Acts 15, and Romans 14?

One could do work on Sunday to heal.. One could disobey their parents if they’re pushing a fake religion. One could justify stealing if they need food or medicine for their family.

Nowhere does the Bible, especially the Old Testament justify breaking the Law to fulfill a higher purpose. Consider the case of Uzzah (2 Samuel 6). He had only the highest motives in approaching the Ark. He was tryimg to keep it from being defiled in the mud and trampled by the oxen. And yet the law said that only priests and Levites could approach the Ark, and they had to perform certain purification rites and wear particular clothing. And so Uzzah was punished.

Mark 2:23-28 and Mark 3:2-4 (and similar passages in the other Gospels) may seem to provide examples of justifying disobeying the Law, but the Sabbath law itself included some exceptions, and much of what the Pharisees were complaining about was not part of the Law, but part of the "fence" (or if you will, safety rail) that the rabbis constructed around the Law, to make it hard to accidently break the Law. In addition, the Son of Man, as Lord of the Sabbath, has declared a change in the Law, concerning the Sabbath.

One could even justify murder to save lives.

You could justify killing, but not murder. Murder is unjustified killing, and it is murder, not killing, which is forbidden in the Law

There is not a justification for homosexuality. Just as the Bible says there is no justification for adultery.

Actually there is one justification for adultery. It applies to a woman under two specific situations. If she did not consent to the adultery (that is, if she was raped) and she cried out for help, she could be aquitted of adultery if she were rescued or if being too far from town, no one was around to hear her screams. Otherwise, not even rape could "justify" her adultery.

As to the first part of the sentence, I would agree, if you narrowly choose to define "homosexuality" as "the specific act that is forbidden in Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13." If you choose to use a more reasonable definition, one that includes the personality differences, the structural and bio-chemical differences in the brain, and the subsequently different psyches, then homosexuality does not need to be "justified" because it is a human condition, not a moral act.

I suspect that what you mean is somewhere in between these two poles, but much, much closer to the first than to the second. I really can't comment without being sure of your position.

If someone is gay, they are just obeying their human nature and are not following the Spirit. In fact they are opposed to the Spirit like the scripture quoted says, “For what our human nature wants is opposed to what the Spirit wants, and what the Spirit wants is opposed to what our human nature wants.” The Spirit is awesome. Who would want to be against the Spirit? Especially considering obeying our human desires is temporary where obeying God leads to great things.

Again, I would need to know exactly what you mean by "gay" before I could comment. But I can ask comparative questions. If someone is autistic, or color-blind, or left-handed, or red-headed are they "just obeying their human nature and not following the Spirt"?

Or is someone "just obeying their human nature and not following the Spirt" if they are "filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful." (Romans 1:29-31)

Galatians 6:7-8 ”Do not deceive yourselves; no one makes a fool of God. A person will reap exactly what he plants. If he plants in the field of his natural desires, from it he will gather the harvest of death; if he plants in the field of the Spirit, from the Spirit he will gather the harvest of eternal life.”

Again, he says something similar in Romans:
[bible]Romans 8:5-7[/bible]
 
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OllieFranz

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(Part 2)

All the so called homosexual “Christians” need to make a choice: Death as they try and pervert not only marriage but worship of Jesus as well or eternal life where they give up your homosexuality for the faith. The homosexuals that are pushing for gay marriage and perverted interpretation of the scriptures do not make a fool of God. But they may fool other believers who wouldn’t otherwise be homosexual. Do you know how much worse this is than if they were just homosexual and not spreading false teachings?

Whoa! I think you skipped a lot of your argument. You simply can't jump from the post as it stands before this paragraph to all of these conclusions.

On what basis are you claiming that "homosexuals" (under any definition) have only two choices perverting the scriptures or giving up their homosexuality. Most who fit the narrow definition don't care that they are breaking the Law of Leviticus 18:22. Most who fit the broader definition can't change those things about them any more than a black man can become white or an autistic can become a great romantic novelist. They can, under the proper circumstances change their outward appearances, as a left-hander can learn to use his right hand, or a red-head can dye her hair, but those outward changes do nothing to change the person within.

Yes, they do have the choice of death or eternal life, just as we all have, but it is not tied into who they are, but in Who Jesus is.

I agree that "The homosexuals that are pushing for gay marriage and perverted interpretation of the scriptures do not make a fool of God." But then, they are not trying to. They are pushing for marriage equality because it is right. It is just. And they are not "perverting the scriptures" just because the question your interpretation of them. In both cases they are doing their humble best to honor God and respect His Will.

I will address the last two sentences after we look at your quotes from Scripture

Luke 17:2”It would be better for him if a large millstone were tied around his neck and he were thrown into the sea than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.”


Jesus is basically saying it’s better to die than to teach others that it is ok to sin!

Fair enough as far as it goes, but this passage, even after you include verse one does not limit the offences to teachings, or limit the teachings to preaching false liberties. It would also include teaching false restrictions, and what Paul refers to as placing a stumbling-block before a "weaker brother."

In Romans 14, Paul is discussing two Old Testament laws that are no longer reqired of Christians. He discusses the "weaker bretheren" who are not yet convinced that the dietary laws are no longer required. In verse 23, he mentions that if the weaker brother believes it is a sin, and eats the meat anyway, he is indeed sinning. And so Paul twice (verse 3, and verses 12-20) admonishes those who accept the freedom to eat meat not to place a stumbling block before these "weaker bretheren." He also admonishes, in verses 3 and 13, those who do continue to keep the dietary law not to judge the brother who has accepted this new freedom. Although he does not go into as much detail, he repeats both of these admonisments in relation to the law about observing holy days.

So while Jesus' admonishment can include the teaching of false liberties, it also includes the attempt to restrict and judge liberties that the Lord allows.

Also, Paul's admonishment not to place a stumbling-block before a "weaker brother" does not include teaching the brother the truth. Paul said that he would not eat meat if by eating he caused a weaker brother to stumble. But that same concern did not keep him from teaching that we are, indeed, free from the dietary laws.


Matthew 23:15"How terrible for you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees! You hypocrites! You sail the seas and cross whole countries to win one convert; and when you succeed, you make him twice as deserving of going to hell as you yourselves are!”


If the Pharisees are going to hell because they teach scripture incorrectly, how much worse will it be for people who teach the opposite of scripture?

First it was not all Pharisees that Jesus condemned. Paul was a Pharisee, and counted it as one of the things he could boast of had he not given up all personal praise as worthless compared to the grace Jesus had given him. (see Philippians 3:4-7). his mentor was Gamaliel (Acts 22:3), who is still considered by the Jews to be one of the greatest rabbis of all time. As far as we know, Gamaliel never converted to Christ, but he did defend Christiany (Acts 5:34-40). One of the hallmarks of he Reformation was a rediscovery of the same approach to the Scriptures and the Law that separated the Pharisees from the other religious groups. In general, the Pharisees were men after God's own heart.

The Pharisees that Jesus rebuked on this and similar occasions were committing errors that could only be commited by devout and learned men, but who are blinded by pride. Their rabbis had built "fences" around the Law, and in their zeal, these Pharisees saw no difference between God's Law and the fences that men had put up around that Law, to protect them. If anything, since respecting the fences meant that they never came close to the sin, they gave greater attention to the details of the "fence."

That is the message of the parable in Luke 18. And the point of Matthew 23, especially verse 24. They were meticulous in keeping the letter of the Law (and of the laws in the "fence") down to the smallest detail, but had forgotten the Spirit who gives the Law it's purpose.

Looking at verse 15 in this context, what they were teaching was a form of legalism. Because a written law, even the Law of Moses, cannot anticipate every possible situation, there will be times that the letter of the law as written condemns what is clearly the right thing to do (as in the case of Uzzah and the Ark). There will also be times when there is no "safe" choice, and one must choose the "lesser" of two evils (such as your example of disobeying parents who want you to worship a false god).

But God's true purpose in giving Moses the Law was not to give us detailed instructions on living a righteous life, but to convict us of the fact that without Him, living such a life is not possible.
[bible]Romans 3:19-25[/bible]

The Pharisees whom Jesus rebuked were not guilty of preaching false liberties, but of resticting and judging the liberties of others.

Now I am ready to comment on the end of that other paragraph:

But they may fool other believers who wouldn’t otherwise be homosexual. Do you know how much worse this is than if they were just homosexual and not spreading false teachings?

Are you saying that by teaching tolerance toward gays that some straights will suddenly "go gay"? That is a strange notion. Can you imagine yourself suddenly not being attracted to women, but rather being attracted to men, just because someone says gays are God's children, too?

Or are you saying that gays who believe that we must still honor Leviticus 18:22 and the "fence" erected around it by the Pharisees, and who are struggling to live a celibate life might find the teaching to be a stumbling-block? While this is not what your words suggest, it seems to be closer to what you mean. And if the gay-affirming message is indeed a harmful message it is right to be concerned.

But Paul did not consider teaching alone to be a stumbling-block. It was the eating of the meat and encouraging the "weaker brother" to also eat that was the stumbling block. The equivalent would be seducing, or even just "hitting on" a gay who is struggling to live a celibate life. Possibly even just dating or a little "harmless" flirting.

But these things (seduction, hitting on, and flirting) are wrong between any couples in many circumstances as well. If a Christian who is avoiding these sins because it is wrong for these reasons happens to be gay, he is till not doing them, but the persons he is not doing them with happens to be the same sex. So that only leaves a "weaker brother" who has potential as a spouse. And then the situation is similar to a young adult (say between 18 and 21) who contemlpates the possibility potential spouse who is still legally a minor, but only a couple of years younger. You wait until it is no longer inappropriate.

.
 
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OllieFranz

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(Part 3)


What some people think is the Spirit leading them is actually their lack of a conscious to know right from wrong. Do they really have the Spirit leading them, or have they just lost all feeling of shame?


Ephesians 4:17 “In the Lord’s name, then, I warn you: do not continue to live like the heathen, whose thoughts are worthless and whose minds are in the dark. They have no part in the life that God gives, for they are completely ignorant and stubborn. They have lost all feeling of shame; they give themselves over to vice and do all sorts of indecent things without restraint.”

I'm assuming that you interpreted "they give themselves over to vice and do all sorts of indecent things without restraint" to mean things like sexual promiscuity and public indecency. But even without that assumption, my response would be the same. The assumption is not necssary. It just allows me to imagine the source of the disgust you are expressing.

There are a lot of gays who fit this description. There are also a lot of straights who fit this description. But the difference is that the gays who do these things do not pretend to be Christian. In fact they are proud of the fact that they are derying Christian tradition. (in many cases it is because of how they were mistreated by Church members who do not live by Christian values. But that is neither here nor there,

Since in this post you are condemning gay Christians (or claiming that a person can't be both gay and Christian, which, in a practical sense, is basicakky the same thing), what the heathen gays do is irrelevant to your argument.

Romans 1:18-32 “God's anger is revealed from heaven against all the sin and evil of the people whose evil ways prevent the truth from being known. God punishes them, because what can be known about God is plain to them, for God himself made it plain. Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all! They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness. They say they are wise, but they are fools; instead of worshiping the immortal God, they worship images made to look like mortals or birds or animals or reptiles. And so God has given those people over to do the filthy things their hearts desire, and they do shameful things with each other. They exchange the truth about God for a lie; they worship and serve what God has created instead of the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever! Amen. Because they do this, God has given them over to shameful passions. Even the women pervert the natural use of their sex by unnatural acts. In the same way the men give up natural sexual relations with women and burn with passion for each other. Men do shameful things with each other, and as a result they bring upon themselves the punishment they deserve for their wrongdoing. Because those people refuse to keep in mind the true knowledge about God, he has given them over to corrupted minds, so that they do the things that they should not do. They are filled with all kinds of wickedness, evil, greed, and vice; they are full of jealousy, murder, fighting, deceit, and malice. They gossip and speak evil of one another; they are hateful to God, insolent, proud, and boastful; they think of more ways to do evil; they disobey their parents; they have no conscience; they do not keep their promises, and they show no kindness or pity for others. They know that God's law says that people who live in this way deserve death. Yet, not only do they continue to do these very things, but they even approve of others who do them. “


1 Corinthians 6:9-10”Surely you know that the wicked will not possess God’s Kingdom. Do not fool yourselves; people who are immoral or who worship idols or are adulterers or homosexual perverts or who steal or are greedy or are drunkards or who slander others or ware thieves-none of these will possess God’s Kingdom.”


If you’re going to quote Paul on saying that he said that Christ took away the Law, you must also accept his other teachings. This teaching clearly says that homosexual perverts will not possess God’s Kingdom.

If that is the only message you get from these passages, then the lessons that Paul was teaching in these passages is far from clear. But this post is already very long. I'll get into Paul's lessons in a later post.


I would like to address the Presbyterian Church as a whole for there is a division in it because some churches accept Christians that profess that being gay is ok with God. I want the Presbyterian Church to unite together with the doctrine that being gay is a sin.


Jude 1:17-21”But remember, my friends, what you were told in the past by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ. They said to you, “When the last days come, people will appear who will make fun of you, people who follow their own godless desires.” These are the people who cause divisions, who are controlled by their natural desires, who do not have the Spirit. But you, my friends, keep on building yourselves up on your most sacred faith. Pray in the power of the Holy Spirit, and keep yourselves in the love of God, as you wait for our Lord Jesus Christ in his mercy to give you eternal life.”


Romans 16:17”I urge you, my brothers: watch out for those who cause divisions and upset people’s faith and go against the teaching which you have received. Keep away from them! For those who do such things are not serving Christ our Lord, but their own appetites. By their fine words and flattering speech they deceive innocent people.”


1 Corinthians 5:12-13 “After all, it is none of my business to judge outsiders. God will judge them. But should you not judge the members of your own fellowship? As the scripture says, ‘Remove the evil man from your group.’”

I am not a Presbyterian, so I would have to be careful in answering this section not to misrepresent that Church or it's doctrines. I'll have to defer responding on this section of your post until I understand that Church better.

The Bible convicts gays in no uncertain terms. As you can see I drew out just a handful of verses that condemn being gay as a sin. I didn’t even have to try hard to find them. Jesus is there so you don’t become lost in your sins. If you sin, you can ask for forgiveness. Jesus can forgive gays, but they must admit what they’re doing is a sin and want forgiveness for it.

I have tried hard to find the verses. I find a lot of verses that speak of sexual immorality, and other topics that have come up in your quoted verses. But most of them only include "homosexuality" if you already know (from another Biblical passage) that it is a sin.

There are only three verses (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, and Romans 1:26-27) that clearly and unambiguously mention homosexual practices. and two more (1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:9) that almost certainly refer back to the Leviticus ban. I'll examine them in subsequent posts, starting with the two Leviticus verses
 
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Brieuse

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(Part 3)




I'm assuming that you interpreted "they give themselves over to vice and do all sorts of indecent things without restraint" to mean things like sexual promiscuity and public indecency. But even without that assumption, my response would be the same. The assumption is not necssary. It just allows me to imagine the source of the disgust you are expressing.

There are a lot of gays who fit this description. There are also a lot of straights who fit this description. But the difference is that the gays who do these things do not pretend to be Christian. In fact they are proud of the fact that they are derying Christian tradition. (in many cases it is because of how they were mistreated by Church members who do not live by Christian values. But that is neither here nor there,

Since in this post you are condemning gay Christians (or claiming that a person can't be both gay and Christian, which, in a practical sense, is basicakky the same thing), what the heathen gays do is irrelevant to your argument.



If that is the only message you get from these passages, then the lessons that Paul was teaching in these passages is far from clear. But this post is already very long. I'll get into Paul's lessons in a later post.




I am not a Presbyterian, so I would have to be careful in answering this section not to misrepresent that Church or it's doctrines. I'll have to defer responding on this section of your post until I understand that Church better.



I have tried hard to find the verses. I find a lot of verses that speak of sexual immorality, and other topics that have come up in your quoted verses. But most of them only include "homosexuality" if you already know (from another Biblical passage) that it is a sin.

There are only three verses (Leviticus 18:22, Leviticus 20:13, and Romans 1:26-27) that clearly and unambiguously mention homosexual practices. and two more (1 Cor 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:9) that almost certainly refer back to the Leviticus ban. I'll examine them in subsequent posts, starting with the two Leviticus verses
In other words the OP is wrong and homosexuality is not a sin.
 
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OllieFranz

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In other words the OP is wrong and homosexuality is not a sin.

Well, I believe so, but until I post my comments on the five passages I mentioned in my last paragraph, I haven't yet shown that to be true (at least not on this thread -- although I have discussed all five in other threads).
 
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GoodNewsJim

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When I said that people pushing the lie that homosexuality is not a sin are dooming themselves, I meant it based off scripture. It clearly says that when you lead others into sin, it is better to have a millstone around your neck and be cast into the sea.

Yes, more people will be gay if the church says homosexuality is not a sin because they will have no reason for turning from their sin. I didn't say that it would cause people to become gay.
 
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Brieuse

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When I said that people pushing the lie that homosexuality is not a sin are dooming themselves, I meant it based off scripture. It clearly says that when you lead others into sin, it is better to have a millstone around your neck and be cast into the sea.

Yes, more people will be gay if the church says homosexuality is not a sin because they will have no reason for turning from their sin. I didn't say that it would cause people to become gay.
A person's sexuality is determined a long time before church fundies get to rebuke them. Your fire and brimstone preaching is the lie.
 
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GoodNewsJim

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A person's sexuality is determined a long time before church fundies get to rebuke them. Your fire and brimstone preaching is the lie.

I'm not using fire and brimstone. I'm saying Jesus is love and he forgives everyone of their sins. You must be convicted of your sin before you confess it though, and homosexuality is a sin that is explained several times in the bible directly.
 
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Danyc

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I'm not using fire and brimstone. I'm saying Jesus is love and he forgives everyone of their sins. You must be convicted of your sin before you confess it though, and homosexuality is a sin that is explained several times in the bible directly.

That has yet to be determined. Until you have proved this point, you should shy away from saying such things.
 
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GoodNewsJim

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That has yet to be determined. Until you have proved this point, you should shy away from saying such things.

The Bible says it is a sin. Why I shy away from saying it? I'm bold about it! In fact everyone should be bold about it too because if you tell someone else that the Bible doesn't claim homosexuality is a sin, then you're teaching people the wrong thing. God is not pleased when you exchange his word for a lie.

Maybe I didn't use enough scriptural evidence in my explanation, but I thought my post was long. Perhaps you can find it in the Bible where God says that homosexuality is no longer a sin. Maybe you'd find it in the Bible where God approves of it. I'd like to see that because you'd have to pervert scripture very much to draw a conclusion like that.
 
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FaithLikeARock

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Oh goodness! Such a long post! I will only respond to the first paragraph.

There are very few people that leave Christianity because they think it condemns homosexuality (probably because it doesn't really). They leave because of the people pushing it does. As far as the verse, what hate? I don't see people hating God for condemning homosexuality. All I see is people hating each other over a disagreement. It's silly, honestly.
 
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Brieuse

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The Bible says it is a sin. Why I shy away from saying it? I'm bold about it! In fact everyone should be bold about it too because if you tell someone else that the Bible doesn't claim homosexuality is a sin, then you're teaching people the wrong thing. God is not pleased when you exchange his word for a lie.

Maybe I didn't use enough scriptural evidence in my explanation, but I thought my post was long. Perhaps you can find it in the Bible where God says that homosexuality is no longer a sin. Maybe you'd find it in the Bible where God approves of it. I'd like to see that because you'd have to pervert scripture very much to draw a conclusion like that.
The Bible nowhere says it is a sin, at least not in the original Hebrew and Greek.
 
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Zaac

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That has yet to be determined. Until you have proved this point, you should shy away from saying such things.

What? Is God still determining what is/is not a sin? :confused: It has been decreed by God that sex outside of His ordained marriage between a husband and wife is sexual immorality. And homosexual fornication falls in that category.

It's been determined.

There's nothing to prove to the heart that doesn't want to believe the Word of God.
 
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Danyc

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What? Is God still determining what is/is not a sin? :confused: It has been decreed by God that sex outside of His ordained marriage between a husband and wife is sexual immorality. And homosexual fornication falls in that category.

It's been determined.

There's nothing to prove to the heart that doesn't want to believe the Word of God.

Nowhere in the Bible, in the original Hebrew and Greek, from what I know of, is it said that homosexuality is a sin. No one has yet been able to provide me with verses that condemn it, in the original Hebrew and Greek. Current translations say homosexuality; but the original text is unclear.
 
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GoodNewsJim

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Nowhere in the Bible, in the original Hebrew and Greek, from what I know of, is it said that homosexuality is a sin. No one has yet been able to provide me with verses that condemn it, in the original Hebrew and Greek. Current translations say homosexuality; but the original text is unclear.

The Good News Bible is a legit translation. I know God is real because he spoke to me,"Good News", and that same day I received a Good News Bible. I'm not saying I have divine enlightenment on things unknown. I just know the Good News Bible is approved of by God.
 
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BigBadWlf

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My argument is powerful,
Your argument is tired. It is the same argument we have seen used time and again to justify prejudice against a minority.

but to accept it, you must believe in God and that the Bible is true.
No, what you are demanding is people agree with you or you will dismiss them as being something or somehow not actual Christians….there is a difference.
“truth” is what is not what you present here, rather you present opinion and call it truth




It is one of the more serious sins to not believe in God simply because he disapproves of something that you’ve made a habit of.

one you can’t demonstrate that disapproval
and two sexual oriention is not a habit
 
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savedandhappy1

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Among the ancient Greeks, whose written history does not begin until patriarchy has reached a state of full development, we find the following sexual organization: male supremacy...and along with this the wives leading an enslaved and wretched existence and figuring solely as birth machines. The male supremacy of the Platonic era is entirely homosexual...

The Clash of Cultures
A key to understanding the cause of the German social collapse, which culminated in the atrocities of the Third Reich, is found in the conflict of Hellenic and Hebrew (Judeo-Christian) value systems. This war of philosophies, as old as Western civilization itself, pits the homoeroticism of the Greeks against the marriage-and-family-centered heterosexuality of the Jews. Johansson and Percy write of this conflict from the homosexualist perspective: [58]

1 Kings 15:10 And forty and one years reigned he in Jerusalem. And his mothers name was Maachah, the daughter of Abishalom.

1 Kings 15:11 And Asa did that which was right in the eyes of the Lord, as did David his father.1 Kings 15:12 And he took away the sodomites out of the land, and removed all the idols that his fathers had made.1 Kings 15:13 And also Maachah his mother, even her he removed from being queen, because she had made an idol in a grove; and Asa destroyed her idol, and burnt it by the brook Kidron.
H4656 miphletseth mif-leh'-tseth From H6426 ; a terror, that is, an idol:--Idol.

Iamblichus: Following every point in its turn, we remark that the planting of "phallic images" is a special representing of the procreative power by conventional symbols, and that we regard this practice as an invocation to the generative energy of the universe. On this account many of these images are consecrated in the spring, when all the world is receiving from the gods the prolific force of the whole creation. 4

4. The custom here described was universal in ancient times, and it is still found in parts of India. Its remains also exist in architecture and ornamentation. In the worship of the Ashera and Venus of Eryx, and of the Great Mother in Syria and Western Asia, the observances were carried to greater extremes. King Asa of Judea is said to have deposed his mother, Maacha, from royal dignity for her participation -- "because she made a phallosto an Ashera," I Kings XV: XIII. It has been generally believed that the Festivals and Initiatory, or Perfective Rites, of the different countries, included the same feature, as indeed, is here admitted. It should be borne in mind, however, before any hasty judgment, that the different faiths had their two sides, like the right or the left, and that worshippers regarded them and took part in them according to their inherent disposition. Thus, in India, there are the Asceticsiva-worshippers, and the Saktas, to this day. In this way the Mysteries presented themes for the highest veneration, as well as phases that are esteemed as gross and lascivious. Every curious person, therefore, sees in them what he has eyes to see, and is often blind to the rest.


2 Kings 23:4 And the king commanded Hilkiah the high priest, and the priests of the second order, and the keepers of the door, to bring forth out of the temple of the Lord all the vessels that were made for Baal, and for the grove, and for all the host of heaven: and he burned them without Jerusalem in the fields of Kidron, and carried the ashes of them unto Beth-el.
H3627 keliy kel-ee' From H3615 ; something prepared, that is, any apparatus (as an implement, utensil, dress, vessel or weapon): armour ([-bearer]), artillery, bag, carriage, + furnish, furniture, instrument, jewel, that is made of, X one from another, that which pertaineth, pot, + psaltery, sack, stuff, thing, tool, vessel, ware, weapon, + whatsoever.

2 Kings 23:5 And he put down the idolatrous priests, whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in the cities of Judah, and in the places round about Jerusalem; them also that burned incense unto Baal, to the sun, and to the moon, and to the planets, and to all the host of heaven.
H4208 mazzalah maz-zaw-law' Apparently from H5140 in the sense of raining; a constellation, that is, Zodiacal sign (perhaps as affecting the weather):planet. Compare H4216 .
2 Kings 23:6 And he brought out the grove from the house of the Lord, without Jerusalem, unto the brook Kidron, and burned it at the brook Kidron, and stamped it small to powder, and cast the powder thereof upon the graves of the children of the people.

2 Kings 23:7 And he brake down the houses of the sodomites, that were by the house of the Lord, where the women wove hangings for the grove.
H6945 qadesh kaw-dashe' From H6942 ; a (quasi) sacred person, that is, (technically) a (male) devotee (by prostitution) to licentious idolatry: sodomite, unclean.

Grove is:

H842 Asherah ash-ay-raw', ash-ay-raw' From H833 ; happy; asherah (or Astarte) a Phoenician goddess; also an image of the same:--grove. Compare H6253 .

H6253 Ashtoreth ash-to'-reth Probably for H6251 ; Ashtoreth, the Phoenician goddess of love (and increase):--Ashtoreth.
2 Kings 23:8 And he brought all the priests out of the cities of Judah, and defiled the high places where the priests had burned incense, from Geba to Beer-sheba, and brake down the high places of the gates that were in the entering in of the gate of Joshua the governor of the city, which were on a mans left hand at the gate of the city.
2 Kings 23:9 Nevertheless the priests of the high places came not up to the altar of the Lord in Jerusalem, but they did eat of the unleavened bread among their brethren.
While the Greeks cultivated paiderasteia as a fundamental institution of male society and attribute of gods and heros, in two centuries, under Persian rule (538-332 B.C.), Biblical Judaism came to reject and penalize male homosexuality in all forms. Jewish religious consciousness deeply internalized this taboo, which became a distinctive feature of Judaic sexual morality, setting the worshippers of the god of Israel apart from the gentiles whose idols they despised. This divergence set the stage for the confrontation between Judaism and Hellenism (Johansson and Percy:34).
In implying that the rejection of homosexuality by the Jews began in this time period, Johansson and Percy ignore the Biblical record, but they are correct that the Jews’ opposition to homosexuality was a central factor in their hostility to the Greeks. They continue (somewhat bitterly), describing the context in which the first clash of these value systems occurred:
At the heart of the “sodomy delusion” lies the Judaic rejection of Hellenism and paiderasteia, one of the distinctive features of the culture brought by the Greek conquerors of Asia Minor. It is a fundamental, ineluctable clash of values within what was destined to become Western civilization. Only in the Maccabean era did the opposition to Hellenization and everything Hellenic lead to the intense, virtually paranoid hatred and condemnation of male homosexuality, a hatred that Judaism bequeathed to the nascent Christian church (ibid.:36).

In his article “Homosexuality and the Maccabean Revolt,” Catholic scholar Patrick G. D. Riley also identifies homosexuality as the focal point of conflict between the Jews and the Greeks. The Greek King, Antiochus, had ordered that all the nations of his empire be “welded... into a single people” (Riley:14). This created a crisis for the Jews, forcing them to choose between faithfulness to Biblical commandments (at the risk of martyrdom) and participation in a range of desecrations from “the sacrificing of pigs and the worshiping of idols, to ‘leaving their sons uncircumsized, and prostituting themselves to all kinds of impurity and abomination’ (1 Macc. 1:49-51)” (ibid.:14).

The Greeks also built one of their gymnasia in Jerusalem, which “attracted the noblest young men of Israel...subduing them under the petaso” (emphasis ours -- 2 Macc. 4:12). In the traditional Latin translation the above phrase is rendered “to put in brothels” (Riley:15). The gymnasia were notorious throughout the ancient world for their association with homosexual practices. In fact, Flaceliere concludes from Plutarch’s writings that from the beginning of its acceptance in Greece, “the development of homosexuality was connected to the rise of gymnasia...[which usually contained] not only a statue or Hermes, but also one of Eros” (Flaceliere:65).

The tensions which led to the Jewish revolt were exacerbated when the Jewish high priest, a Hellenist himself, offered a sacrifice to Heracles (Hercules), who was a Greek symbol of homosexuality. Riley adds, “The Jewish temple itself became the scene of pagan sacrificial meals and sexual orgies [including homosexuality].” The final insult (for which Antiochus is identified in the Bible as the archetype of the antichrist) “was the installation in the temple of a pagan symbol, possibly a representation of Zeus [Baal], called by a sardonic pun ‘the abomination of desolation’” (Riley.:16).

In the ensuing religious revolt, the Maccabees“preserved what would become the moral charter of Christendom, just as in defending marriage they saved what would be the very material of its construction, namely, the family” (ibid.:17). Yet, though they preserved the Judeo-Christian sexual ethic, the Maccabees did not vanquish Greek philosophy as a rival social force. Of the two irreconcilable belief systems, the Judeo-Christian one would prevail, allowing the development of what we know today as Western culture;
yet Hellenism survived.

Most of the Israelites had fled or been driven out of Canaan because they refused--as did Jesus--to "bow to Baal" by singing and dancing the Dionysus Choral when the Jews Piped. John refused to baptize them and called them a generation of Vipers. Jesus used only parables to HIDE the truth from them. And Peter said that they should save themselves FROM that crooked generation. The Skolios singers were marked by the skolion songs the perverted male symposia sang. See Acts 2 and the crooked generation.


http://www.piney.com/1Macc.html

Hmmm, no wonder music was considered evil.

http://www.theologymatters.com/TMIssues/MayJun95.pdf

Here is another interesting article about the early church and the teachings of homosexuality.
 
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