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Homosexuality is a sin, get over it...

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Konkurrent

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:scratch:

Ever read Numbers 6?

Numbers 6
1 Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When either a man or woman consecrates an offering to take the vow of a Nazirite, to separate himself to the LORD, 3 he shall separate himself from wine and similar drink; he shall drink neither vinegar made from wine nor vinegar made from similar drink; neither shall he drink any grape juice, nor eat fresh grapes or raisins. 4 All the days of his separation he shall eat nothing that is produced by the grapevine, from seed to skin.
5 ‘All the days of the vow of his separation no razor shall come upon his head; until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the LORD, he shall be holy. Then he shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow. 6 All the days that he separates himself to the LORD he shall not go near a dead body. 7 He shall not make himself unclean even for his father or his mother, for his brother or his sister, when they die, because his separation to God is on his head. 8 All the days of his separation he shall be holy to the LORD.

Suicides go to hell. Ever heard that preached?

Samson took his own life, therefore many Christians believe (or ought to believe) that he didn't go to heaven.
 
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intricatic

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Context, context, context. :) Without that, scripture cannot be understood.

1 Corinthians 11
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God.
13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 But if anyone seems to be contentious, we have no such custom, nor do the churches of God
-----

It's only changing it if one cannot understand the thematic implication of this verse, or if one isolates a specific portion of it to prove a point that it doesn't really make. This is talking about something more pertinent than just hair, as is the analogy drawn between Christ and God, woman and man, long hair and short hair. ;) Need I remind you that Paul was also well versed in the Law of the Prophets and Moses, and would have understood the importance of long hair in vows to God?
 
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intricatic

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Suicides go to hell. Ever heard that preached?

Samson took his own life, therefore many Christians believe (or ought to believe) that he didn't go to heaven.
Hey, I'm not trying to be contentious here. I was merely pointing something out. That is antitypical of Christ on many different levels, as was Samson (in a way).

But this is another topic entirely, and not related to the one at hand. :)
 
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hithesh

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:scratch:

Ever read Numbers 6?

Numbers 6

5 ‘All the days of the vow of his separation no razor shall come upon his head; until the days are fulfilled for which he separated himself to the LORD, he shall be holy. Then he shall let the locks of the hair of his head grow. .

Ever finished reading Numbers 6?

Of course you left out the final task of the vow:

"On the day he completes the period of his dedication he shall go to the entrance of the meeting tent, bringing as his offering to the LORD one unblemished yearling lamb for a holocaust, one unblemished yearling ewe lamb for a sin offering, one unblemished ram as a peace offering, along with their cereal offerings and libations," (Numbers 6:13-14)

:wave:
 
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hithesh

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Context, context, context. :) Without that, scripture cannot be understood.
[...]
Need I remind you that Paul was also well versed in the Law of the Prophets and Moses, and would have understood the importance of long hair in vows to God?

I don't get what you're trying to do with this scripture. Cor 11:10, has been used and is still used in churches, who tell their female members to cover their heads with a scarf when they are in church, and their male members, to not grow their hair long. So are you trying to say these churches have taken Paul's words out of context?

So what is the context, you refer to three times?
explain this context in plain english to us, so we can understand.
Is the context of nature, relevant to the time?

And I've already addressed the vows, you only half mention, leaving out the part about sacrificing a lamb. Are you trying to say the the NT and Paul endorse half a vow? Or do they endorse the vow without the unneeded elements such hair length and slain animals.
 
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hithesh

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What point are you trying to make? We no longer need ritual sacrifice because the antitype was fulfilled in Christ. :)

The guidelines for the ritual sacrifice changed, they consist of fasting and praying, and no longer on growing your hair, and dead animals.

I don't even understand why you are trying to argue this the way you do, why not be honest with yourself and with us, and just tell us you retain your long hair because you like it, and not because of a vow to god?

So we can end this run around, and prove my point :) .
 
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intricatic

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I don't get what you're trying to do with this scripture. Cor 11:10, has been used and is still used in churches, who tell their female members to cover their heads with a scarf when they are in church, and their male members, to not grow their hair long. So are you trying to say these churches have taken Paul's words out of context?

So what is the context, you refer to three times?
explain this context in plain english to us, so we can understand.
Is the context of nature, relevant to the time?

And I've already addressed the vows, you only half mention, leaving out the part about sacrificing a lamb. Are you trying to say the the NT and Paul endorse half a vow? Or do they endorse the vow without the unneeded elements such hair length and slain animals.
So what are you trying to argue again?

The spirit of the vow is still the same, or did nature change between covenants? :scratch: The essence of sacrifice was natural because God instituted it, this is why Christ took the place of a sacrifice. The same is true of the rest of the laws. I have explained three times, but you chose not to read it. I can do no further than that.

The guidelines for the ritual sacrifice changed, they consist of fasting and praying, and no longer on growing your hair, and dead animals.

I don't even understand why you are trying to argue this the way you do, why not be honest with yourself and with us, and just tell us you retain your long hair because you like it, and not because of a vow to god?

So we can end this run around, and prove my point :) .
:scratch: Honestly, do you know why I have long hair? Or are you making a presumption here? I can tell you, long hair is incredibly annoying to have. :D I'll also tell you, I've not cut my hair in four years. Do you know when I was saved? Take a guess. :)

But when did this become an argument over hair? Or has the topic now become obscured by isolated passages that have little contextural relevance to either the original discussion, or the one we're on now?

As far as the KKK/homosexual discussion goes. For the sake of brevity, this is what you said:

The question arose because a another person on this forum, said that he does not seek to ban members of the KKK from getting married because the marriage is not a sin.

Since the bible defines the sexual act as a sin, and not the marriage of two men as a sin, why should we then say homosexual marriage is a sin, and seek to legally place a ban on it, but not use the same line of logic for others we consider to be sinners.

My original question was directed to a particular individual, who understood what I was implying.

... and this is what I said:

Besides, the sin that would be associated with KKK members is actively punished by our government, is it not? And rightly so. It causes harm not only overtly to society as a whole, but subtly to a minority group. It's justified. Taking the same action we take against KKK members and applying it to homosexuals would not be justified in the least, and would, in fact, be incredibly abusive.
The point I was making is that your analogy is flawed.
 
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hithesh

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So what are you trying to argue again?

The spirit of the vow Is not the external ritual of growing your hair. There are no verses in the NT, that speak that God desires for us to grow our hair, but there is a verse about long hair on a man being shameful. If Paul felt the need for an exception, I'm sure he would have placed it in the verse, instead of leading millions of christians to do away with this particular ritual from the vow of the OT.

Paul is very clear in what he intended to say in that verse, and you will be hard pressed to find a translation anywhere that argues the point you're trying to make. What other's who interpret that passage say, is that Paul is speaking to a particular society at a particular time.

If you say that one verse is for a particular society at a particular time (particularly when Paul says nature, which is unchanging, and not society), then what's to stop someone from saying another verse is for a particular society at particular time.

Paul is very clear in what he said, so I suggest you cut your hair, or be in danger of judgement, and I'm sure God will still honor your vow, if you do so, please brother don't take the chance. :)

It's not hard to see the Bible is a historical work, any rational individual can see this. It's the believers who are so unwilling to view their holy book objectively, who twist passages, and then say that certain verses don't mean what they say, and others do, that have made the words of Christ so polluted, that his message makes no sense. The sad thing is, individuals who share your point of view, will become irrelevant in the near future, when future generations start to think that there probably was no talking serpent, there probably was no Noah's ark, or a man who killed an Army with a Donkey's jaw bone, and they will start to lose belief, by the hands of those who do not understand.

There is only one portion of the bible where nothing can be taken away from, and those are the words of Christ. But of course Christ will be accused of plagiarism because the similarities in his teachings (as well as life: virgin birth, wise men, even the walk on water) with those of the Buddha who predated him 500 years, and whose teachings are documented to have spread in the West, prior to Christ. But those who become discouraged, but remain faithful, will start to see the Gospels in a new light. The portions of the Gospels (such as the sermon of the mount) which many say are not to be followed literally, and do not mean what they say, will be proven to mean what they say, and are asked of us to follow (nearly every portion of the sermon of the mount is in the teachings of the Buddha, and there is no question that he desired his followers to follow them), when you start to reconcile the two teaching, noting what Christ adds, you will start to see everything differently, and even the meaning of the second coming changes. And when we have started to loose the last strings of faith, we will be awakened by a new, brighter and more glorious truth. We will see why the fig tree that Buddha sat under for seven days before he found enlightenment, relates to the passage of the fig tree, which christ withers away for it bears no fruit.

Every other portion of the bible will become irrelevant, except the words of Christ.
Individuals who cling to the word of God, as literal text, will have nothing to say to the later generations who are filled with doubt. Because these generations will look at reason, and understand what you say is not true.


If you only knew what will give you peace, but now it is hidden from your eyes.
 
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That's one opinion. I don't believe they're the same either, but I can't prove that a Muslim is wrong about that.

I can. 2+2 will never = 4 and 5 at the same time.

But which God? Mine? Yours? The Mormon's? The Hindu's? Who's right? How do you prove it?

Lee Stroble

I read your earlier post and I read other user's earlier post also, notice how I didn't mention any names, i didn't explicitly say you, so don't take personal offense, and any topic that people have "strong" convictions is going to touch people in some sort of way that people are going to react either adversely or with strong support, people are going to say things that are strong and in some cases aspecially with this hurtful, or argumentative.

Sorry for accusing you.

A rational individual who looks at the science of sexuality, and is familiar with gays and lesbians, understand that their sexuality is not a choice, same as my heterosexuality is not a choice. We even know that god creates individuals with two sex organs (and of course some say they are the result of demons), if the bases for your opposition is paul, and verses from the OT, then their is nothing to reason with, because you believe they spoke absolutes.

Homosexuality is a choice, there are many who are willing to confess.

I cannot argue you with you, if you say homosexuality is wrong because a few verses in the bible says it is. If you believe homosexuality is wrong for reasons outside of the text, then we can reason together.

Even if was just one verse in the Bible, that would be enough.

I understand your convictions shawn (because they are based on beliefs that are not your fault), and I should apologize for showing any animosity because you have them. I know that perhaps you will never come to my side on this one issue, but i do know that the number of christians who are own my side are growing and never declining, and that gives me hope.

Well, according to Revelation, the world is going to go bad before it ends. Letting homosexuality run rampant is defenitely a sign.
 
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Ah, so I guess you don't see that the number of Christians who support gay rights are increasing? as well as the number of Christians who do not believe all portions of the bible should be taken literally (and this includes the Pope and Billy Graham)?

The pope has many problems, I agree.

And as I recall, it doesn't matter what Billy Graham believes because he isn't anyones Holy Spirit.

I don't condone or condemn it. It's not my place and it's not my job.

It's your job to keep sin out of the Church, it's everyone's job.

Do you believe the laws God gave Moses in Leviticus, where laws for the people of that age, or for our age as well?

And do you believe the Paul's teachings are void of flaws?

Oh this one will take the conversation places...

The Law was for everyone, back then and now, Jew and Gentile.

Whatever is in the Bible is void of error. If Paul did work outside of the Bible, I wouldn't say it's flawless.
 
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The obvious, and relevant point, though: What angels? :confused:

I feel a digression... Genesis 6.

I don't know about that, but according to many Christians he didn't go to heaven.

Dude! He was a God appointed judge of Israel! Of course he went to heaven.

Suicides go to hell. Ever heard that preached?

Samson took his own life, therefore many Christians believe (or ought to believe) that he didn't go to heaven.

Well, suicide isn't some unforgiveable sin.

What point are you trying to make? We no longer need ritual sacrifice because the antitype was fulfilled in Christ. :)

True, but we don't do sacrifices because there is not temple. We are supposed to do them when the temple is ressurected as a rememberance of Christ sacrifice, just like Passover ot whatever.

 
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hithesh

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I feel as if we've drifted off topic.

Those who string to literal belief, hold on tightly to something that is not there. But the time is coming when all will be taken away from believers, and many will start to loose faith, and what you so blindly see as truth, others will see as fiction.

Christians today are not ready to provide answers, for the wave of unbelief that will arise in the coming years, as they hold on to verses that do not matter, instead of building there house on the sermon of stone.

All areas of the bible are needed for a particular people at a particular time, and when that time elapses areas become irrelevant. Every generation has a new message, and a new understanding of things. The only message that is relevant to our generation and generations beyond are the words of Christ in the gospels. But many of us are hiding from the truth, that is starting to arise now.

All I say, is out of a deep love for Christianity, and a longing to perserve it, before many start to see it as irrelevant.
My convictions are deep, and my love for God is strong.
 
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HisBelovedMelody

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Those who string to literal belief, hold on tightly to something that is not there. But the time is coming when all will be taken away from believers, and many will start to loose faith, and what you so blindly see as truth, others will see as fiction.

Christians today are not ready to provide answers, for the wave of unbelief that will arise in the coming years, as they hold on to verses that do not matter, instead of building there house on the sermon of stone.

All areas of the bible are needed for a particular people at a particular time, and when that time elapses areas become irrelevant. Every generation has a new message, and a new understanding of things. The only message that is relevant to our generation and generations beyond are the words of Christ in the gospels. But many of us are hiding from the truth, that is starting to arise now.

All I say, is out of a deep love for Christianity, and a longing to perserve it, before many start to see it as irrelevant.
My convictions are deep, and my love for God is strong.
where do you get this????? this seems way off in left field somewhere..and not even right? BUT again, this is a thread about homosexuality, not your believes on the Bible and where it is collapsing. The last I head, HIS word DOES NOT return void..and it accomplishes what it is sent to do. I don't see the Word as 'irrelevent' as you seem to.
 
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hithesh

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where do you get this????? this seems way off in left field somewhere..and not even right? BUT again, this is a thread about homosexuality, not your believes on the Bible and where it is collapsing.

The fact is that many here are not fighting against homosexuality with reason, but by literal belief in certain portions of scripture. An individual cannot argue against homosexuality with literalist, without confronting literal belief. And I guess you believe children born with two sex organs, are products of sin, and the devil, and not God?

The last I head, HIS word DOES NOT return void..and it accomplishes what it is sent to do. I don't see the Word as 'irrelevant' as you seem to.

Yes, you do not see it as irrelevant, but many in the coming years will.

The number of Christians who support gay rights are growing, as well as the number of Christians who are led to unbelief by the message of Christians and Churches who do not understand.

If I as an individual clung to your faith, with what I know now, I would cease to believe. Christianity in it's current state, will be the greatest reason why men are led to unbelief, and many will ask why this is happening, but they will not understand.

Many build their houses on sand, but have not withered a true storm, to see how shaky their foundations are. The subsequent generations founded in the sand, will see the roof cave in on them.

I can continue to live my life you see, and I would be fine because I'm not gay, and I do not have long hair, because I accept Christ as my personal savior, and I place no value in my life, but love others. And it's the least ones, these lost sheep, that I have deep convictions for.

Nothing in my life is more valuable than bringing them to the One true God, and nothing keeps them away more than the church of today.
 
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seanHayden

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I do not understand god's purpose for everything. Will i be able to understand why he allows the serpent to exist, who eventually kills a child? Will i able to understand why a child is born, to be raped and killed a few years later? Will I be able to understand why some of us are born to wealth and privilege, and others are born to starvation and death? Will i be able to understand why children are born with two sex organs? All i know is that all is created by his will.

God gave me the ability to reason, the compassion to help the less fortunate, the ability to understand. With reason and love, I can see, as well as most rational individuals can see, that homosexuality is not a choice, or a sin.

I praise god, for seeing the seeds of compassion are growing among us believers as we become more accepting as time goes on, and I praise god, for you as well.

God bless you dear brother. :wave:
I see this thread has been renewed. I had a difficult time finding your answer to my question--

It seems though, that even with this response, I can't decide if you agree or disagree that,

The man was created to be with the woman and the woman created to recieve the man.

I do however see that you are reluctant to say yes, so while I won't put words into your mouth, I can at least understand that you don't want to say yes, a man is created for the woman and the woman created to recieve the man.

I would still like to hear an answer to the question before moving on. But, I can address at least one of your other points.

Some people are born with two sex organs.

First, don't let this become the focus of your reply to my original question.

That being said, this tragedy has little to do with the question of whether men where created to be with woman and woman created to recieve the man.

No one here, who was being honest, would declare that humans were not created to walk. And yet, many of us are born without the ability to do so. While this is a tragedy, it isn't evidence against the purpose of creation where our ability to walk is concerned.

We see however the same line of reasoning in your statement about those born with both sex organs. We see an attempt to say that because some are born in this way, that men may not have been created to be with women and women created to recieve the man.

I hope you see that at least this attempt to avoid the question fails. I really hope that you will state simply whether or not you think men were created for women and women for the man.
 
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hithesh

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The man was created to be with the woman and the woman created to receive the man.

Some people are born with two sex organs.

First, don't let this become the focus of your reply to my original question.

That being said, this tragedy has little to do with the question of whether men where created to be with woman and woman created to relieve the man.

We see however the same line of reasoning in your statement about those born with both sex organs. We see an attempt to say that because some are born in this way, that men may not have been created to be with women and women created to receive the man.

Let's answer you question a bit more directly. If God created men to be only with women, then God would not create children with two sex organs, who have no physical gender. We know that god creates abnormalities, but do we know the reason for why he creates them?

Yet we allow these children time, to decide which gender they are allowed to be, but if they decide to not cut off any sex organs (because this is not a sin, and it perhaps might be a sin to do so), then who decides which sex they are physically? who decides which sex they are attracted to?

What I assume we can say, that this individual has a biological leaning for which sex he is attracted to. But you see this is not a choice on his part, but a biological leaning?

If the hermaphrodite decides to marry, who decides which sex he/she is to be with? Do you?
If this individual does not have the ability to procreate, do we then deny him/her the rite to marry?
If the parent decides to remove the male organ from this child, because the parent wants a girl, and the child grows up later to realize she is attracted to women, do we then deny him/her the right to marriage as well?

Is it really his/her choice? Or the makeup of god's creation that decides?

( I appreciate the fact, that you provide reasons for your view, and not just use a particular verse as the basis)
 
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