Homosexuality - defect or variant?

[wblastyn]

Someone brought up an interesting point in one of the many homosexuality threads on the other forums.

Since evolution is all about reproduction and survival, wouldn't Natural Selection select against homosexuality (assuming organisms are born that way), since it doesn't lead to reproduction? Should homosexuality be considered a defect or a variant?

I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm just curious.

 

[Washington]

It would be a defect only if evolution were goal directed. But because there is no goal to evolution--it's merely an ongoing process of adaptation--I believe homosexuality would be better described as a variant.

 

[Pete Harcoff]

The problem is sexuality is not a black and white issue. Sure, strict homosexuals (those that never copulate with members of the opposite sex) will never pass on their genes.

However, individuals which are bisexual to some degree (even if they have heterosexual sex just once) may pass on the their genes.

I brought this up in the other thread, but I think it would be interesting here, too: Bonobo Sex and Society

Sex appears to play a greater role in Bonobo society than simply for reproduction.

 

[lucaspa]

Someone brought up an interesting point in one of the many homosexuality threads on the other forums.

Since evolution is all about reproduction and survival, wouldn't Natural Selection select against homosexuality (assuming organisms are born that way), since it doesn't lead to reproduction? Should homosexuality be considered a defect or a variant?

I don't mean to offend anyone, I'm just curious.

Pete had part of the answer. Since homosexuality is often not absolute -- many homosexuals have engaged in heterosexual sex and have kids -- then the gene can be passed down. Sexuality and sexual orientation is a polygenic trait.

Now, if the allele(s) is LINKED to that allele (s) of another gene(s), one that has clear selection advantages, then as that other allele is selected for, the allel(s) for homosexuality will also be selected for. This mechanism --linking -- is a clearly documented means of keeping alleles with minor selective disadvantage in a population.

Pete alluded to this when he had homosexual encounters provide a positive social effect. Those individuals able to engage in bisexual activity and thus cement a place in their social group will have an advantage, particularly when survival depends on group membership.

 

[wblastyn]

Thanks for your replies.

 

[wblastyn]

I have another question. What about homophobia? Is there something genetic that causes people to hate/be repulsed by homosexuals, or is it purely based on their environment. Like some Christians forget the "love thy neighbour" part of being a Christian and abuse a homosexual based on their interpretation of scripture saying homosexuality is wrong? But then it's not just Christians, a lot of people hate gays, kinda similar to racism?

Also, why do some homosexual people act like the opposite gender? Some gay men are very effeminate, and some lesbian woman are very butch. I know this isn't always true, there are manly gay men and feminine lesbian women, but is there a link between sexual orientation and gender identity?

 

[EvolvEarth]

There are actually many reasons why the homosexual genes continue to spread escaping selective pressures.

1. While homosexual genes are on the X chromosome, women can have one X with and one X without the genes. This mean that women can have the gay genes and still be heterosexual--which the gene can slip by undetected by nature.

2. It's been shown that the gene turns on 50% of the time the user has it. So basically, the homosexual genes are triggered off by an environment event, many times in utero or after birth before grade school, that is unknown to any person and cannot be regulated. This means that many people can carry the gay gene and not have it triggered off by the environment. That means that the gene can be spread through child birth.

3. Homosexuals can choose to have sex with heterosexuals strictly to raise a child, and also to escape the gay bashing.

4. Bisexuals can help spread their genes since they can mate with the opposite sex as well as the same sex.

5. Homosexuality is often common when there is a huge population of a species. This study has been conducted with rats.

6. Homosexuality can also be triggered by hormonal factors, which might be separate for the genetics version. This way, homosexuality happens because of a hormonal event in the uterus which can be caused by genes or be unrelated to genes. This is another way it can escape the clutches of natural selection.

 

[Evo]

I have another question. What about homophobia? Is there something genetic that causes people to hate/be repulsed by homosexuals, or is it purely based on their environment. Like some Christians forget the "love thy neighbour" part of being a Christian and abuse a homosexual based on their interpretation of scripture saying homosexuality is wrong? But then it's not just Christians, a lot of people hate gays, kinda similar to racism?

God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah. This was because, so say the Christian Right, some homosexuals lived there. Gensis 19:4-5, 24-25


"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Lev 20:13


----homosexuality = death penalty if you don't the whole world will be burned.....

-some people say this is jewish law and it doesn't apply but the bible clearly says, that "jewish law" is forever. God says this a few times.


WAKE UP MAN!!!!!!!!

 

[tof]

I have another question. What about homophobia? Is there something genetic that causes people to hate/be repulsed by homosexuals, or is it purely based on their environment. Like some Christians forget the "love thy neighbour" part of being a Christian and abuse a homosexual based on their interpretation of scripture saying homosexuality is wrong? But then it's not just Christians, a lot of people hate gays, kinda similar to racism?

Here's a link to Wikipedia about homophobia.

It list 4 possible causes.
- percieved subversion of gender role
- repressed homosexual desires
- religious principles
- the fact that homosexuality or same gender sexual intercourse is prohibited by the law in some countries

I think that the basic cause is the fear of the unknown/different. The fact that some laws (religious or secular) target homosexuals doesn't help, in the sense that homophobic behavior can seem justified.

Also, why do some homosexual people act like the opposite gender? Some gay men are very effeminate, and some lesbian woman are very butch. I know this isn't always true, there are manly gay men and feminine lesbian women, but is there a link between sexual orientation and gender identity?

I can offer only personal anecdotes about that, but I've never met effeminate homosexuals, all the gay people I know are quite manly, they just prefer men. The effeminate men I know, on the other hand, generally had beautiful girlfriends/wives. Likewise, the lesbians I know are quite feminine.
I think that gender identity has nothing to do with sexual orientation, it's simply a difference in the percieved and the actual gender of an individual. Some of these differences are genetical, others caused during fetal development, and others are psychological.

 

[wblastyn]

God kills everyone in Sodom and Gomorrah. This was because, so say the Christian Right, some homosexuals lived there. Gensis 19:4-5, 24-25


"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." Lev 20:13


----homosexuality = death penalty if you don't the whole world will be burned.....

-some people say this is jewish law and it doesn't apply but the bible clearly says, that "jewish law" is forever. God says this a few times.


WAKE UP MAN!!!!!!!!

Actually I thought Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of sexual perversion, not just homosexuality, I mean the men did try and rape the angels.

Yes, Leviticus also calls eating sea food an abomination, and yet...

Anyway, even if it is wrong that doesn't give anyone the right to abuse people just because they do something you think is wrong. Some of my friends used to take drugs, I don't agree with that but I didn't attack them or insult them because of it.

 

[Evo]

Actually I thought Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of sexual perversion, not just homosexuality, I mean the men did try and rape the angels.

Yes i agree with you however... like the quote said "most fanatics"

Yes, Leviticus also calls eating sea food an abomination, and yet...

Anyway, even if it is wrong that doesn't give anyone the right to abuse people just because they do something you think is wrong. Some of my friends used to take drugs, I don't agree with that but I didn't attack them or insult them because of it.

I like your point of view, unfortunately it is rare.

If you don't believe me take a look at this link to the "westboro Baptist church web site"
This is one of the most disturbing things i've seen in my life....

http://www.godhates****.com/main/whipplememorial.html

your going to have to fill in the ***s first letter is f

 

[JohnR7]

Actually I thought Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed because of sexual perversion, not just homosexuality, I mean the men did try and rape the angels.

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[wblastyn]

I like your point of view, unfortunately it is rare.

If you don't believe me take a look at this link to the "westboro Baptist church web site"
This is one of the most disturbing things i've seen in my life....

http://www.godhates****.com/main/whipplememorial.html

your going to have to fill in the ***s first letter is f

Yes, I've been there before.

It's depressing how people like this abuse the Bible so much. What way is this to win converts, by insulting people who are different than they are. It seems like someone has been repressing their true sexuality hehe (reference to causes of homophobia).

 

[wblastyn]

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

Thankyou

 

[wblastyn]

What causes things like necrophilia, zoophilia, pedophilia?

 

[Jet Black]

If you look too much for causes for these things, you end up pushing the soul out of the picture by making it so irrelevant that it may as well not be there. In effect the soul just becomes the whipping boy for a lump of greasy meat controlled by a few bits of DNA.