Homophobes

[BryanW92]

I use it as a reference, my faith in God and Christ is in God and Christ, not in a bunch of seperate stories written by men, collected by men, and translated by men. I believe God enfluenced what was written in the Bible but didnt dictate it.

The Cult of the Personal God is quite popular these days. The Personal God is pretty cool because he always agrees with you and thinks that your sins are not really a sin.

 

[GenetoJean]

The Cult of the Personal God is quite popular these days. The Personal God is pretty cool because he always agrees with you and thinks that your sins are not really a sin.

What is really a shame to me then is that I still know I sin.

 

[NamelessHero]

I don't condone homosexuality, but i don't have an issue with it. I don't care to know about who someone sleeps with. It's not my business.

 

[miamited]

miamited goes even farther afield, equating love and sex and bringing rape into the discussion. Equating rape and homosexual sex between consenting partners is almost as far from logic and truth as you can get. I say almost because abysmul brings pedophilia into the discussion. Why not compare beastiality with looking at a woman lustfully while you're at it? It is tragic where some let their minds take them.


miamited saves the day in his second post, saying "Love is not sex and sex is not love. Love is caring for and about someone else's well being often over our own. It seems to me that if someone loves another then the last thing they would want is to pull that other person down into the pit with them. Sex is merely one manifestation of love, but only when enjoyed within the context for which God intended it to be shared. Otherwise it's just us seeking to gratify the desires of our flesh." The question is: is it wrong to love somebody of the same sex? I don't care what goes on in the bedrooms of anyone else, whether they're gay or not. (What goes on in the bedrooms of "straight" people? Is it always "conventional" (biblical) intercourse? Give me a break!!)

Hi pescador,

You possibly don't read your own posts as well as others may, I don't know. Your post subject is concerning 'homophobes', of which I am not. I am not fearful of same sex relationships. I do believe that those who enjoin themselves in such relationships are sinning. They are going against the commands of God. It's just that simple for me. But...your post opens up discussing homophobes and you express an understanding that you have and you end that discussion by saying, and this is a direct quote from your post:

Show me what's wrong with people -- anyone -- loving another person.

So, I don't know why you think that I'm the one who is confusing 'love' with 'sex'.

You are someone who likes to inflame conversations with rhetoric that is intended to misguide responders. You write how you know that people will enter into this discussion with 'rage'. Why do you think that just because people don't agree with your position and attempt to bring godly council into the discussion are filled with 'rage'. Why can't it just be as simple as, "I know that there are some who will disagree with me on this"?

Yes, you obviously have an ax to grind in this matter and whether you yourself practice same sex relations or not, isn't really at issue here. You asked a few questions and I offered up what I believe is an understanding of the issue. There's nothing wrong with a man loving another man. David loved Jonathan. The Scriptures say that his love for him was a very deep love, but I'm confident that David's love for Jonathan and Jonathan's love for David never became a sexual relationship. They just cared deeply for one another.

Homosexuality, as expressed in the Scriptures is not about love for someone of the same sex, but sexual relations with someone of the same sex. God told the people of Israel that it was an abomination before Him for a man to lie with another man as one lies with a woman. This issue of 'lying with' is describing the sexual relations that a man has with a woman.

So, to further define, and hopefully you're mature enough to put away the inflammatory words and just discourse on the matter that you brought up as a mature adult, when the word 'homosexual' or 'homophobia' are used, they directly infer a sexual relationship between the involved parties.

Just because you are a grandfather doesn't make you wise -- just old.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Hi again pescador,

However, after further reflection, perhaps I have misjudged the purpose of your post. Is your concern not that you disagree that homosexuality is a sin, but rather the desire of some to make it a touchstone issue while ignoring other sinful behavior? If that is the case, then I agree wholeheartedly with you. The Westboro group have chosen homosexuality as the cause celebre as have many others who attach themselves to the 'christian' name.

I agree with you that same sex relations are no more or less a sin against God than adultery, beastiality, pedophilia, theft, lying or idolatry. So, perhaps you were seeking a different audience for your questions. I am not a homophobe and so I'm probably not qualified, if that was your purpose, to offer up any words on the subject.

Same sex relations are a sin before a holy God, but no more so than any of the other many sins explained to men in the Scriptures.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[miamited]

Good morning pescador,

I have been troubled throughout the night. I am thankful for the conviction of the Spirit. You are correct and I am wrong. Please forgive me. I'm sorry to have taken your intentions wrong.

Yes, I do agree with you. We, as born again believers should not be any more troubled by the sin of same sex relationships than by any other sin. We should strive to love those who are perishing just as Jesus did.

Please forgive my acerbic tongue and may the Lord forgive my sin. I woke up this morning and that was the very first thing on my mind was the conviction that I had treated you unjustly.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[Jesse2014]

I, myself, struggle with homosexual desires. And I know God hates homosexuality.


Personally, I don't think Christians, that don't struggle with the homosexuality, are able to understand what the gay person is going through. But the Bible doesn't tell us to understand sin, so that's not going to fly with them. It is very lonely and depressing. A lot of gay people are suicidal. All the gay parades and homosexual promotions is only a fraction of what they see. You can go on and on about this to most Christians, and all you will get is that homosexuality is sin, so deal with it. So I gave up on trying to get them to understand.

I do not live the gay lifestyle. For I know God's wrath will come upon me if I did. I still struggle with lust, which I am fighting against lately.

The truth is homosexuality is sin and brings death. According to Paul, we are not suppose to judge those who are without Christ, but those who claim to have Christ and yet are in sexual sin. Read 1 Corinthians 6. It talks about that.

There is a difference between judgment and being concerned for someone else. It's like trying to stop a friend from stealing from a nasty barbaric King, so he doesn't get his hand chopped off. You did not stop him to be judgmental, or because you thought you were more righteous then he. You did it to keep him from losing his hand. But another may let him steal, even though he knew that his friend can get his hand chopped off.

Do you love the gays? Do you want them to see life? Then pray for them that God will bring them to Jesus. And maybe ask God to annoint you so you can bring the gospel to them. It's not out of judgment, it is so they can escape the judgment to come. God's wrath is so horrible. I am hoping I won't be caught in it.

If I were you, I would just leave other Christians, who may or may not have a good attitude towards gays, in God's hand. We can fight with them, and they won't understand. I got accused of promoting sin at one time when I started a thread, for I made a statement and said that I love the gays, which I do. But I wasn't saying I love homosexuality. So, now I just accept that most Christians are the way they are, and leave them in God's hand.

 

[pescador]

Hi pescador,

There you go again defending sinners from the judgment of the righteous. I don't believe you expected to provoke love by your comments, which makes me wonder if you might be expressing pain, only because you recently broke away from your church over similar conflicts.

I don't think you're disputing homosexuality is sin, but speaking of christians judging the world. I agree except you used Romans to compare sins, and it came pretty close to saying homosexuality is the same corruption as hetrosexuality.

I think the world loves it's own. They support gays in ways I as a christian can't. When I speak of righteous judgment, it's for my brother's walk with Jesus, and not in support of gays. I guess there's a thin line between defending sinners and supporting them.

I just want to say we're not against you. God builds us up with mercy. Keep the faith.

Thanks for this thoughtful post. It's nice to have a reasoned dialogue instead of the emotional, thoughtless responses of some.


I'm not in pain about leaving my former church. Quite the contrary I'm at peace about leaving the doctrine of self-righteous "us vs. them" attitude which was about LGBTs and more. And yes I am "defending sinners from the judgment of the righteous", just as Jesus did. Time after time he defended those who were persecuted by the self-righteous Pharisees and Sadducees, and I am proud to be like him.


You said "I don't think you're disputing homosexuality is sin, but speaking of [C]hristians judging the world"; that is correct. Thank you for "getting it". There are many, many sins, yet people rant and rave about homosexuality, way beyond its true effect on society. If people put anywhere the same effort into criticizing drunk driving and domestic violence we might be on our way to a more livable society.


Vaya con Dios!

 

[pescador]

What percentage? Because almost all gun owners think that people who go on shooting sprees should be shot dead instantly, but we all get painted with the "crazed shooter" brush every time one of those psychos opens fire.

The difference is that I see gun owners publicly saying that these people are insane and must be stopped. Where is the public gay outrage against the PRIDE parade obscenities?

You're boasting about murder and then compare it to gay pride? You are in real spiritual trouble Bryan!!

 

[BryanW92]

You're boasting about murder and then compare it to gay pride? You are in real spiritual trouble Bryan!!

No. I am talking about the people in a specific community speaking about against the extremists within that community.

 

[BryanW92]

If people put anywhere the same effort into criticizing drunk driving and domestic violence we might be on our way to a more livable society.

Drunk driving and domestic violence are against the law, and those laws pretty draconian with no tolerance whatsoever for circumstances.

People who commit those two crimes are socially shunned, with only pedophiles being lower in people's eyes.

But I do agree with you that we should look at the sin of adultery and the sin of homosexuality as being the same sin. We would never allow an openly and actively adulterous person to become an ordained pastor. We wouldn't let them instruct our sons as scout leaders or sports coaches. We wouldn't celebrate an adulterer as a role model because of their "courage" for being an adulterer, or say that "this guy deserves to be in the NFL because he cheats on his wife."

Let's treat all sexual sins equally!

 

[pescador]

I don't condone homosexuality, but i don't have an issue with it. I don't care to know about who someone sleeps with. It's not my business.

Thank you SO MUCH for saying this!! This is really the essence of why I started this thread. I just understand why people are so upset about homosexuality.

 

[pescador]

Good morning pescador,

I have been troubled throughout the night. I am thankful for the conviction of the Spirit. You are correct and I am wrong. Please forgive me. I'm sorry to have taken your intentions wrong.

Yes, I do agree with you. We, as born again believers should not be any more troubled by the sin of same sex relationships than by any other sin. We should strive to love those who are perishing just as Jesus did.

Please forgive my acerbic tongue and may the Lord forgive my sin. I woke up this morning and that was the very first thing on my mind was the conviction that I had treated you unjustly.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

Good morning Ted,


Please don't condemn yourself for what you said in your posts. Some of the words were perhaps a little harsh but I was not offended by them because they came from a heart of truth. I expect disagreement and fair criticism from others as we don't all agree.


You asked "Is your concern not that you disagree that homosexuality is a sin, but rather the desire of some to make it a touchstone issue while ignoring other sinful behavior?" That is quite accurate. People compare homosexuality between consenting adults with murder and the other gross sins described in Romans 1. I can't figure out why they are so upset and, in some cases, vindictive, towards LGBTs. IMHO they have a far more serious issue to deal with than the people they accuse, and certainly aren't familiar with the fruit of the Spirit. That is why the thread is about homophobes and not whether homosexuality is a sin.


Vaya con Dios!

 

[pescador]

I, myself, struggle with homosexual desires. And I know God hates homosexuality.


Personally, I don't think Christians, that don't struggle with the homosexuality, are able to understand what the gay person is going through. But the Bible doesn't tell us to understand sin, so that's not going to fly with them. It is very lonely and depressing. A lot of gay people are suicidal. All the gay parades and homosexual promotions is only a fraction of what they see. You can go on and on about this to most Christians, and all you will get is that homosexuality is sin, so deal with it. So I gave up on trying to get them to understand.

I do not live the gay lifestyle. For I know God's wrath will come upon me if I did. I still struggle with lust, which I am fighting against lately.

The truth is homosexuality is sin and brings death. According to Paul, we are not suppose to judge those who are without Christ, but those who claim to have Christ and yet are in sexual sin. Read 1 Corinthians 6. It talks about that.

There is a difference between judgment and being concerned for someone else. It's like trying to stop a friend from stealing from a nasty barbaric King, so he doesn't get his hand chopped off. You did not stop him to be judgmental, or because you thought you were more righteous then he. You did it to keep him from losing his hand. But another may let him steal, even though he knew that his friend can get his hand chopped off.

Do you love the gays? Do you want them to see life? Then pray for them that God will bring them to Jesus. And maybe ask God to annoint you so you can bring the gospel to them. It's not out of judgment, it is so they can escape the judgment to come. God's wrath is so horrible. I am hoping I won't be caught in it.

If I were you, I would just leave other Christians, who may or may not have a good attitude towards gays, in God's hand. We can fight with them, and they won't understand. I got accused of promoting sin at one time when I started a thread, for I made a statement and said that I love the gays, which I do. But I wasn't saying I love homosexuality. So, now I just accept that most Christians are the way they are, and leave them in God's hand.

Well said Jesse. Thanks for being so forthright and honest. Vaya con Dios!

 

[GenetoJean]

Drunk driving and domestic violence are against the law, and those laws pretty draconian with no tolerance whatsoever for circumstances.

People who commit those two crimes are socially shunned, with only pedophiles being lower in people's eyes.

But I do agree with you that we should look at the sin of adultery and the sin of homosexuality as being the same sin. We would never allow an openly and actively adulterous person to become an ordained pastor. We wouldn't let them instruct our sons as scout leaders or sports coaches. We wouldn't celebrate an adulterer as a role model because of their "courage" for being an adulterer, or say that "this guy deserves to be in the NFL because he cheats on his wife."

Let's treat all sexual sins equally!

I believe you are mistaken about not letting adulterers be football coaches or scout leaders. We don't care what a person does in their private life to become a football coach or a scout leader. We especially don't use ideas like this the judge professional sports players maybe you meant shouldn't but you said wouldn't and I disagree with that.

 

[miamited]

Good morning Ted,


Please don't condemn yourself for what you said in your posts. Some of the words were perhaps a little harsh but I was not offended by them because they came from a heart of truth. I expect disagreement and fair criticism from others as we don't all agree.


You asked "Is your concern not that you disagree that homosexuality is a sin, but rather the desire of some to make it a touchstone issue while ignoring other sinful behavior?" That is quite accurate. People compare homosexuality between consenting adults with murder and the other gross sins described in Romans 1. I can't figure out why they are so upset and, in some cases, vindictive, towards LGBTs. IMHO they have a far more serious issue to deal with than the people they accuse, and certainly aren't familiar with the fruit of the Spirit. That is why the thread is about homophobes and not whether homosexuality is a sin.


Vaya con Dios!

Hi pescador,

Thank you for your graciousness. You are right and I was wrong. I briefly scanned your OP and my eye was caught by your closing statement and took the wrong intention of your thread.

I do agree with you about the cause of many who claim the name of 'christian' to then go out and bash people for certain sins and yet seemingly unashamed of other equally degrading sins. You mention adultery. Yes, as far as I am concerned an adulterer is just as guilty of just as serious a sin as someone caught up in same sex relationships.

One speaks here of murder, and quite honestly, if we look to the destruction of the soul and spirit before God, same sex relationships are no different than even murder. Adultery is even murder. Jesus even spoke about one who gets a divorce and remarries as being the destroyer of even their new spouses soul. He said that if a man gets divorced and remarries that he causes his wife to become an adulterer. That's a tough teaching for us to accept. But, they are all sins for which our Savior paid the price if we are willing to accept that forgiveness on God's terms. I believe that even Paul may have struggled with this issue of sin in our lives even though we may be born again. He wrote of how it was sin warring in his body that kept him from doing the things that he knew he ought to do and not doing the things that he knew he should do.

The answer, of course, is to try to tell them about Jesus. Help them to understand that their sin can and will be forgiven, if...

I understand your work here. I have similar concerns with those who march at abortion clinics. We, believers, believe that somehow we can make sinners live like us. Only Jesus can make sinners live like us. We make such a big issue of a poor child being lost who will never live, but even that sin will be forgiven. We are here to minister to the living. To show the love of Jesus to those who are alive and yet have the chance to take hold of the gold ring of eternal life. The promise of our God to all who will believe. That is our job!

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[BryanW92]

I believe you are mistaken about not letting adulterers be football coaches or scout leaders. .

I'm talking about the adulterer who is analogous to the PROUD homosexual. This would be a person who openly cheats on their spouse, and does it with PRIDE.

Obviously, if no one knows that it is happening, then we can't stop them from being a coach.

 

[GenetoJean]

I'm talking about the adulterer who is analogous to the PROUD homosexual. This would be a person who openly cheats on their spouse, and does it with PRIDE.

Obviously, if no one knows that it is happening, then we can't stop them from being a coach.

Most people don't make decisions about others actions based on sin. This is a secular country. On this level homosexuality, at most equates to a single man who has sex outside of marriage. In marriage adultery actually causes harm to a person who didn't choose to be in that position. Homosexuality doesn't do that.

 

[peterandrewj]

Homosexuality is a corruption through lust, and heterosexuality is not. But all sinners are evil, and none of them can know it without coming to the light. It's up to us to entreat them.

We come in peace, proclaiming peace by the gospel.

 

[Armoured]

The book of Romans has once again becoming the focus of a local church. Despite the fact that chapter one focuses on the sinful natures aroused by idolatry first, then the shameful lusts that produce unnatural sexual relations, then the depraved mind that results in "every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity...envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice", etc. it is amazing to me that such sins as murder(!) are ignored by them, choosing instead to attack LGBTs instead. However, let's look at what Romans really says about "homosexuality"...

The emphasis is on people who are consumed with extreme lust, so much so that they commit "shameful" acts with others of the same gender. This doesn't describe LGBTs who love one another and have normal, romantic sex, any more than calling me a heterosexual means that I am a sex addict. If people are consumed with lust and commit "shameful" acts it's because it's shameful for a heterosexual to be so driven that they aren't content with normal sexual relations and can't restrain themselves. If an LGBT has sex with a partner whom they love, why is that shameful?


Secondly, why is that of so much concern to people?? Personally I don't care what sexual relations people have; I'm concerned that they love each other (which is what God is concerned with, after all). There are many activities with which God is displeased and I believe that same-sex behavior is near the bottom. The second commandment describes idolatry, the sixth through the tenth describe murder, adultery, theft, false testimony, and covetousness. Homosexuality isn't mentioned, and Jesus never mentioned it. (Only Paul wrote about it, in Romans and 1 Corinthians, where it's included with idolaters, adulterers, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, and swindlers, in a description of the unsaved, which of course nobody includes in the discussion. He also follows it with saying that "everything is lawful for me".)


I know that people (homophobes) will come "out of the woodwork" filled with rage concerning this post, forgetting the commandment to love our neighbor as ourselves and leave judgment to God, but I think it's worth a discussion among the rest of us. If you want to flame me, be my guest; I could care less. A fit of rage is a sin and I Corinthians 6 says that "all things are lawful for me" (meaning every believer). Show me what's wrong with people -- anyone -- loving another person.