Holy Esphigmenou Monastery

[Prawnik]

According to my understanding, this is a common misreading of the Patriarch's words. This misreading is typically put forth by Anglicans seeking ecumenicism and Old Calendarists seeking arguments against the EP.

 

[jckstraw72]

According to my understanding, this is a common misreading of the Patriarch's words. This misreading is typically put forth by Anglicans seeking ecumenicism and Old Calendarists seeking arguments against the EP.

i surely hope so.

 

[Silentchapel]

Living in Serbia, I had a chance to witness the fruits of the Old Calendarists.

Each and every of my contact with them was bad.
First of all they tend to cause discord, calling canonical Orthodox churches heretical and calling the faithful not to attend Liturgies. Of course, since there are VERY few (if any) Genuine Orthodox churches, they simply don't attend liturgies. The following words are used as catchphrases: "heretic, ecumenist, uniate, ecumenism, anathema." The last one is used instead of: "It's wrong / I disagree." Sometimes I feel like they see canons as dogmas. After all, if praying with heretics is SO UNREPENTABLY BAD, why isn't it a dogma?

A friend of mine attended the E. monastery - he felt as if he entered wolf den. They assaulted him like Jehova's Witnesses - he barely convinced them to enter the church. He even noted that they squabble among themselves - about such trivialities such as when to make a prostration, can somoene pray for a non-Orthodox (living or departed), veneration of icons where God the Father is shown as Ancient of Days and so on, placing endless anathemas on eachother. I think that Old Calendarists (which I've met) base their faith on negation (of ecumenism, Roman Catholicism, whatever), and everything that is based on negation of something is doomed to fail.

I'm sure that there are a lot of holy people among Old Calendarists - I wasn't fortunate to meet them. I also met a lot of great and holy Roman Catholics. Meeting a holy and devout Old Calendarist isn't a proof that they're right - in such way I can claim that Roman Catholics are right. Seeing a bunch of devout Old Calendarists - the same - I dind't convert to Catholicism upon seeing people from SSPX.

 

[repentant]

I am sorry but this has nothing to do with old vs. new calendar. It has to do with them not wanting our Holy Orthodox Church to fall to pieces in a false union with heretics. That's it. Here are some letter's the Monks have written the EP..

Letter 1

Letter 2

P.S. Like I said before, I'll say it again. We will have a false union reconizing each other's (RC and OC) sacraments. The one's who do not follow this false union with the west, will be considered schismatics, but will be the True Orthodox Church, and looked down upon by the false united Church. This is a prophecy of St. Kosmas, and looks to me like it is slowly coming true. Not to mention that "one world religion" is also prophesized to happen before and during the reign of the antichrist. This is just the beggining. We need to all pray so that we may see this threat facing our Holy Orthodox Church.

 

[repentant]

Here is a prophesy of St. Ambrose of Optina...

My child, know that in the last days hard times will come; and as the Apostle says, behold, due to poverty in piety heresies and schisms will appear in the churches; and as the Holy Fathers foretold, then on the thrones of hierarchs and in monasteries there will be no men to be found that are tested and experienced in the spiritual life. Wherefore, heresies will spread everywhere and deceive many. The enemy of mankind will act skillfully, and whenever possible he will lead the chosen ones to heresy. He will not begin by discarding the dogmas on the Holy Trinity, the divinity of Jesus Christ, or the Theotokos, but will unnoticeably start to distort the Teachings of the Holy Fathers, in other words the teachings of the Church herself. The cunning of the enemy and his "tipics" (ways) will be noticed by very few -- only those that are most experienced in spiritual life. Heretics will take over the Church, everywhere, and they will appoint their servants, and spirituality will be neglected. But the Lord will not leave His servants without protection. Truly, their real duty is persecution of true pastors and their imprisonment; for without that, the spiritual flock may not become captured by the heretics. Therefore, my son, when you see in the Churches mocking of the Divine act, of the teachings of the Holy Fathers, and of God's established order, know that the heretics are already present. Be also aware that, for some time, they might hide their evil intentions, or they might covertly deform the divine faith, so that they better succeed by deceiving and tricking the inexperienced.

They will persecute pastors and the servants of God alike, for the devil who is directing the heresy cannot stand the Divine order. Like wolves in sheep skin, they will be recognized by their vainglorious nature, love for lust, and lust for power. All those will be betrayers, causing hatred and malice everywhere; and therefore the Lord said that one will easily recognize them by their fruits. The true servants of God are meek, brother-loving and obedient to the Church (order, traditions).

At that time, monks will endure great pressures from heretics, and the monastic life will be mocked. The monastic families will be impoverished, the number of monks will decrease. The ones remaining will endure violence. These haters of the monastic life, who merely have the appearance of piety, will strive to draw monks to their side, promising them protection and worldly goods (comforts), but threatening with exile those who do not submit. From these threats, the weak of heart will be very humiliated (tormented).

If you live to see that time, rejoice, for at that time the faithful who possess no other virtues will receive wreaths for merely remaining steadfast in their faith, according to the Word of the Lord, "Everyone who confesses Me before men, I will confess before My Heavenly Father". Fear the Lord, my son, and don't lose this wreath so as to not be rejected by Christ into the utter darkness and eternal suffering. Bravely stand in faith, and if necessary, joyfully endure persecutions and other troubles, for only then will the Lord stand by you...and the holy Martyrs and the Confessors will joyfully watch your struggle.

But, in these days, woe be to monks tied to possessions and riches, and who, for the sake of love of comfort, agree to subjugate themselves to the heretics. They will lull their conscience by saying: we will save the monastery, and the Lord will forgive us. Unfortunate and blinded, they are not even thinking that through heresies and heretics the devil will enter the monastery, and then it will no longer be a holy monastery, but bare walls from which Grace will depart forever.

But God is more powerful than the devil, and will never abandon His servants. There will always be true Christians, till the end of time, but they will choose lonely and deserted places. Do not fear troubles, but fear pernicious heresy, for it drives out Grace, and separates us from Christ, wherefore Christ commanded us to consider the heretic and let him be unto thee as a heathen man and publican.

And so, strengthen yourself, my son, in the Grace of Christ Jesus. With joy, hasten to confession and endure the suffering like Jesus Christ's good soldier who was told: "Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the wreath of life".

 

[Oblio]

You will notice that Silentchapel was not talking about OC vs. NC but rather the bad fruit of those who profess to be OCist, and (in at least one testimony here) the schismatics of Esph. are under an OCist group.

 

[repentant]

You will notice that Silentchapel was not talking about OC vs. NC but rather the bad fruit of those who profess to be OCist, and (in at least one testimony here) the schismatics of Esph. are under an OCist group.

Once again, they are under the EP. If they were not, then there wouldn't be a problem. Alot of Monastery's on Mt. Athos follow the OC Liturgically. It is not uncommon. Does not mean they are in schism.

I may not agree with their actions, as far as what was said above...but that is one persons persepective and can not be validated anyway. Considering half the Monks at the Monastery are over 70 years old, it seems hard to believe that they would be fighting. Anyway, I do agree with their stance against false ecumenism with the RCC. I have to take their side on this one.

 

[choirfiend]

GaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaH!







* head explodes from frustration at why people do not understand that the EP has never concelebrated the Eucharist with the RCC and that OldCalendarist Schismatics are different from Orthodox who follow the old calendar.*



please return to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[repentant]

GaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaH!







* head explodes from frustration at why people do not understand that the EP has never concelebrated the Eucharist with the RCC and that OldCalendarist Schismatics are different from Orthodox who follow the old calendar.*



please return to your regularly scheduled programming.

Uh choirfriend,

No one said that the EP did anything of the sort.

And also MY frustration is that no one seems to understand that they are not OC schismatics. If they were then A) The EP would not have any authority over them, so this problem would not be happening. And B) how would they be able to use Canon 15 and refuse to honor the EP if they were not under him? All of the Monastery's on the Athos Republic fall under the EP. Does this make sense?

From the Hellenic Times:

According to Orthodox canonical order, each monastery is under the ecclesiastical jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. That means the monks on Mount Athos are supposed to commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch as their archbishop in prayer services. They are obligated to do so by law, in fact. It is therefore illegal for them to do otherwise.

 

[jckstraw72]

* head explodes from frustration at why people do not understand that the EP has never concelebrated the Eucharist with the RCC

im perfectly willing to accept that the information i came across is possibly erroneous, but how are we really able to validate that something has NOT been done?

 

[jckstraw72]

No one said that the EP did anything of the sort.

sorry Repentant, but I did say that I had read that somewhere. I should not have posted it without the source, which I have not been able to locate again. Please forgive me all.

But in those two letters you linked, their behavior towards the EP is very respectful it seemed to me, and they consistently refer to him as "Your All-Holiness." They write:

We want You to know, Your All-holiness, that we foster
the piety towards Your most reverent person and the
institution of the Ecumenical Patriarchate which is
set down by the tradition of the Orthodox Church and
the history of our martyred Nation. For this reason
our grief becomes even more excessive when we see,
next to Your photograph, advertisements in this
periodical with pictures of semi-naked women and other
scenes which are incongruous with the holiness of Your
ministry and office.

and the letter is from all 20 Athonite Monasteries, in 1999, ending with:

With these things in mind, we kiss Your Most Divine
All-Holiness' holy Right Hand and ask for Your
Patriarchal and Fatherly blessings, remaining Yours
with deepest respect and all due reverence.

unless there has been a schism since 1999, it sure doesnt sound to me like theyre schismatic.

 

[jckstraw72]

Here are 3 sites that mention concelebration:

http://www.geocities.com/joesuaiden/trueorthodox/trueorthodoxchurch.html

Since 1965, regular concelebrations between official Orthodox and Roman Catholics have been held at Rome, although this is in violation of the canons against concelebrating with heretics4.

The Melkite Catholic Patriarch and Antiochian Orthodox Patriarch recently concelebrated a liturgy together (Feb 6, 2004).

http://nektarios.home.comcast.net/1508.html

However, when the Ecumenical Patriarch Demetrios concelebrated with the Pope of Rome in December of 1987, the Elder roused himself; his soul could not bear to be found in such a blatantly Ecumenistic Church. Along with other ascetics, he protested and separated himself from all the other fathers of Mt. Athos who followed the nineteen monasteries. He would not go to church in any of those nineteen or in any of the cells or dependencies which followed them.

http://ecumenizm.tripod.com/ECUMENIZM/id19.html

Patriarch Athenagoras' (Spirou) successor Demetrius (Pandopoulos), when celebrating 10 years of the removal of anathema, greeted Pope John Paul VI as "the first in rank and honor in the entire Body of the Lord" who "presides according to the dictates of love and honor in the God-pleasing (? - L.P.) incense of the Pentarchy of One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" [309].

Bartholomeos (Archondonis), the present Patriarch of Constantinople, who has many times concelebrated with Pope John Paul II is of similar disposition. At the same time both he and his predecessors, while being hierarchs of the Orthodox Church, cannot but be aware of the falsehood of their confirmation of the Supremacy of Roman Popes "in rank and honor in the entire Body of the Lord". Moreover, only a very dubious economia may admit the very existence of apostolic succession in the Latin Church, because according to the Church Canons, bishops-heretics are not only deprived of their clerical rank, but also excommunicated from the Church. Therefore they can neither preserve, nor pass on to somebody that which they do not possess: neither grace, nor apostolic succession. Apparently it is not by chance that, contrary to the rules of the Local and Ecumenical Councils, the papists deny the very possibility of a cleric, or bishop losing his rank [310].

while their accusations may be inflated, it seems as thought SOMETHIGN is happening, especially btwn the EP and Rome. Anyone know more about this?

 

[Oblio]

There is a difference between following the Old Calender, and being an Old Calenderist. All of Athos is former, it appears that only Esph, is the latter.

 

[repentant]

Oblio, you are so wrong it's not even funny. Not to mention the fact that whatever calendar they are or you think they are, has nothing to do with the situation anyway..

 

[Oblio]

See Silentchaples post on the behaviour of Oldcalendarists.

 

[repentant]

He posted that because of you and other's insisting on the Esph. Monastery being "Old Calendarist", which it is not. Honestly all you have basically said in this entire thread is old calendar this, old calendar that.

 

[Silentchapel]

Actually, Oublio is right. Just because the Serbian Orthodox Church follows the Old Calendar, doesn't stop the Old Calendarists (or as we also call them, 'zealots' or rather 'zealot schismatics') to cause discord all around the place. They even published a book: "Judas' Kiss", containing pictures such as these:

Patriarch Paul shakes hands with a cardinal.
Patriarch Paul talks to a Roman Catholic bishop.
Patriarch Paul sitting next to two Roman Catholic bishops.
Serbian bishop attending a Roman Catholic Mass.
And so on and so forth.

Of course, all of them hold Esphigmenou monastery in extremly high regard. And of course, each of them is baptized for the second time - and I've heard reports that some were baptized even more, although I cannot verify this. I especially liked the following quote which popped up during the discussion:

"People who accept the new papal calendar will have boiling lead poured in their throats... in hell" There were interesting tortures replaced with ... since I can't remember.

They tend to ignore that the fact that the Holy Fire descends when 'ecumenist/heretical/traitor of Orthodoxy/judas/' patriarch prays on Great Saturday, and that miracles still occur in the (canonical) Orthodox Church. Also, Old Calendarists tend to split like Protestant churches - whenever they don't agree on some issue - wham, a schism. They have like thousands of Synods - 'True Orthodox Church', 'Genuine True Orthodox Church', 'Truly Genuine True Orthodox Church', 'This Time Really Genuine True Orthodox Church of The Western Mathian Synod' and so on.

This all comes from a lack of trust in God's love and mercy, and most importantly, one's doubt in faith. It has a 'God will not save me if this is not done properly', as if God is some strict judge on dance competition Who takes away not the sins of the world but points for every mistake we make. I also find that most proofs seen in zealots' pamphlets are of 'she said/he said' nature.

I wonder how they'd react if they found out how did St. Mark of Ephesus called the pope in their correspondance.

There is also an interesting thing... You see, some of the Serbian bishops reinstituted the old practice of reading the silent prayers outloud in their jurisdiction. However, some people see this as an innovation, a product of ecumenism. So what do they do? WHen they attend such Liturgies, they literally SHOUT the hymns that were supposed to conceal the silent prayers. When the Liturgy is over (with priest's/bishop's nerves considerably more worn out), they don't approach to take the blessing because, of course, the celebrant is an ecumenistic heretic.

While extreme form of ecumenism - considering all churches valid, that neither holds truth in entirety (and it seems that such view in eastern churches is only seen by an 'ecumenist' template in Old Calendarist pamphlets) is heretical, I find Old Calendarism equally dangerous - even more. One can hardly be an Orthodox and an extreme ecumenist (he will drop out of the Orthodox Church soon enough anyway), Old Calendarism is dangerous because it can tempt even the most faithful souls.

 

[Prawnik]

Actually, Oublio is right. Just because the Serbian Orthodox Church follows the Old Calendar, doesn't stop the Old Calendarists (or as we also call them, 'zealots' or rather 'zealot schismatics') to cause discord all around the place. They even published a book: "Judas' Kiss", containing pictures such as these:

Patriarch Paul shakes hands with a cardinal.
Patriarch Paul talks to a Roman Catholic bishop.
Patriarch Paul sitting next to two Roman Catholic bishops.
Serbian bishop attending a Roman Catholic Mass.
And so on and so forth.

Of course, all of them hold Esphigmenou monastery in extremly high regard. And of course, each of them is baptized for the second time - and I've heard reports that some were baptized even more, although I cannot verify this. I especially liked the following quote which popped up during the discussion:

"People who accept the new papal calendar will have boiling lead poured in their throats... in hell" There were interesting tortures replaced with ... since I can't remember.

They tend to ignore that the fact that the Holy Fire descends when 'ecumenist/heretical/traitor of Orthodoxy/judas/' patriarch prays on Great Saturday, and that miracles still occur in the (canonical) Orthodox Church. Also, Old Calendarists tend to split like Protestant churches - whenever they don't agree on some issue - wham, a schism. They have like thousands of Synods - 'True Orthodox Church', 'Genuine True Orthodox Church', 'Truly Genuine True Orthodox Church', 'This Time Really Genuine True Orthodox Church of The Western Mathian Synod' and so on.

This all comes from a lack of trust in God's love and mercy, and most importantly, one's doubt in faith. It has a 'God will not save me if this is not done properly', as if God is some strict judge on dance competition Who takes away not the sins of the world but points for every mistake we make. I also find that most proofs seen in zealots' pamphlets are of 'she said/he said' nature.

I wonder how they'd react if they found out how did St. Mark of Ephesus called the pope in their correspondance.

There is also an interesting thing... You see, some of the Serbian bishops reinstituted the old practice of reading the silent prayers outloud in their jurisdiction. However, some people see this as an innovation, a product of ecumenism. So what do they do? WHen they attend such Liturgies, they literally SHOUT the hymns that were supposed to conceal the silent prayers. When the Liturgy is over (with priest's/bishop's nerves considerably more worn out), they don't approach to take the blessing because, of course, the celebrant is an ecumenistic heretic.

While extreme form of ecumenism - considering all churches valid, that neither holds truth in entirety (and it seems that such view in eastern churches is only seen by an 'ecumenist' template in Old Calendarist pamphlets) is heretical, I find Old Calendarism equally dangerous - even more. One can hardly be an Orthodox and an extreme ecumenist (he will drop out of the Orthodox Church soon enough anyway), Old Calendarism is dangerous because it can tempt even the most faithful souls.

If Old Calendarism (as opposed to following the Old Calendar) is anything, it is a temptation to those who are faithful.

A prime opportunity to be "more Orthodox than thou".

 

[Silentchapel]

Precisely. Good deal of Old Calendarists I've spoken to speak thusly: "We, the Genuine Orthodox Christians...", "In the Genuine Orthodox Church...", "...which the Genuine Orthodox Synod..."

It is simply politically correct rethorics. What it really means is:
"You, the false orthodox christians...", "In the heretical 'orthodox' church...", "...which the uniate orthodox synod..."

 

[jckstraw72]

I think Repentant is saying Oblio is wrong with regards to Esphigmenou, and not every "True" Church out there. It hasn't been adequately shown that Esphigmenou is schismatic.

A prime opportunity to be "more Orthodox than thou".

but other Christians say the same thing about us.....being in the One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church is a prime opportunity to be "more Christian than thou." We can call them shismatics all day long and point out bad behavior on their part, and they can do the same thing to us all day long, and in the end it won't get anyone anywhere. I think we need to at least give their claims an honest look.

...and again, I don't think its been shown that Esphigmenou is schismatic.