Holy Esphigmenou Monastery

OIT · Aug 29, 2006

eoe said:
I am no ecumenist. Even when I was a protestant I was anti-ecumenical (I am a recent convert) My patron Saint is John the Wonderworker who I am sure you are aware was no ecumenist. I am also under His Eminence Metropolitain Alexios of Atlanta who was a monk of Vatopedi. He is an amazing man of extraordinary quality. I do not see him leaving the faith or compromising it in any way.

Maybe you would like to start a thread on ecumenism? I think it would do well to define it for what it really is.

I don't think everyone is an Ecumenist you are right, but your bishop is in communion with known Ecumenists, and the Canons say, those in communion with heretics are heretics. There can be no way around these canons.

I am not nearly skilled enough to present a debate (nor do I have the time) on Ecumenism. There would be alot to go through.

Yes, I agree, St. John wasn't an Ecumenist; many GOC parishes have his Icon in their parishes, we have some oil from his lamp in our parish. But again, as I said, ROCOR and GOC used to be in communion with each other (and thus they performed ordinations for the GOC).

OnTheWay · Aug 29, 2006

frostymama said:
me too.

Separation of Church and state is one of my big issues that I have to sort out before conversion.

There's nothing to sort out, this is Greece we're talking about. In Greece Orthodoxy is the official religion and there is no separation of Church and state. Though, to be quite candid there is nothing in any American legal document declaring such a separation either. It actually appears in a letter by Thomas Jefferson and has been taken out of context by rabib atheists that want to stop American students in public schools from praying over their lunches. Obviously, there's more than enough evidence that such an approach is far from perfect.

OnTheWay · Aug 29, 2006

I'm curious, if we can't speak with non-Orthodox (ecumenism) then how on earth are we ever going to bring them into the Church?

OIT · Aug 29, 2006

OnTheWay said:
I'm curious, if we can't speak with non-Orthodox (ecumenism) then how on earth are we ever going to bring them into the Church?

There is a difference between talking with non-Orthodox and praying with non-Orthodox. Various anathemas condemn those who pray with non-Orthodox. Ecumenism isn't talking with other people of other faiths, it is saying there is no difference between your faith and mine. Now where the point of debate will come up is whether or not your bishops in the New Calendar Church say this. This isn't a debate I want to get into.

Oblio · Aug 29, 2006

What does pray with non-Orthodox (in the context of the canon) mean ?

OIT · Aug 29, 2006

Oblio said:
What does pray with non-Orthodox (in the context of the canon) mean ?

Praying with heretics, unless you consider non-Orthodox (Catholics, Protestants, etc) to not be heretics. If you don't then the EP praying with the Catholic Pope is just fine.

Greg the byzantine · Aug 29, 2006

jckstraw72 said:
while it may not constitute a Latinizing of the Church, the past 3 EPs have all concelebrated Papal High Masses, which seems pretty strange to me. Also, from what I understand, the monastery tried to dialogue with the EP but he refused, but I'm sure most reports about this are going to be biased in one way or the other.

Been listening to old Calendarist propaganda haven't we

Outside of Lebanon there are no Canonical Orthodox Hierarchs who have concelebrated (Ie. Taken part in the consecration of the Eucharist) of any Non-Orthodox Church.

And before you go telling me that I have an agenda Against the Old Calendarists I actually Have great respect for them for holding their own, I just wish they wouldn't be so nasty to me because I don't buy into there whole "martyrdom" from canonical Orthodoxy complex

Oblio · Aug 29, 2006

OIT said:
Praying with heretics, unless you consider non-Orthodox (Catholics, Protestants, etc) to not be heretics. If you don't then the EP praying with the Catholic Pope is just fine.

You didn't answer the question

OIT · Aug 29, 2006

Greg the byzantine said:
Been listening to old Calendarist propaganda haven't we

Outside of Lebanon there are no Canonical Orthodox Hierarchs who have concelebrated (Ie. Taken part in the consecration of the Eucharist) of any Non-Orthodox Church.

And before you go telling me that I have an agenda Against the Old Calendarists I actually Have great respect for them for holding their own, I just wish they wouldn't be so nasty to me because I don't buy into there whole "martyrdom" from canonical Orthodoxy complex

Hardly propaganda, at the same time, if anyone has been nasty to you, that is no good. I know there are alot of good New Calendarist people, at the same time, that still doesn't mean I can be part of it. I do, however, condemn those bishops who are unChristianlike to Old Calendarists; at least they can show some common Christian charity to the Old Calendarists. If they can do it with the Latins they can do it with the Old Calendarists. Granted though, persecution of the Old Calendarists has mostly ended.

Oblio · Aug 29, 2006

I do, however, condemn those bishops who are unChristianlike to Old Calendarists;

I see. You, who are outside the Church, can condemn a canonical Bishop. I have yet to see unChristianlike behavior by canonical Bishops to someone inside the Church, or outside.

OIT · Aug 29, 2006

Oblio said:
You didn't answer the question

Neither have you answered mine.

However, its very simple: those who pray with heretics ARE heretics. There's nothing more to be said, its plain and clear. When I say pray, I don't mean to the point of concelebration even, I mean things like the EP going to a Papal Mass.

Again, this doesn't mean we can't talk with heretics, at the same time, we can't show support for them either. If we don't condemn heretics, then what is the point of converting to Orthodoxy if there is no real heresy anyways?

OIT · Aug 29, 2006

Oblio said:
I see. You, who are outside the Church, can condemn a canonical Bishop. I have yet to see unChristianlike behavior by canonical Bishops to someone inside the Church, or outside.

Hello? Did you not read the Esphigmenou website? Do you think that website makes that stuff up, about how they have no access to doctors? So what if it is really the EP's monastery, he doesn't have to be a jerk about trying to get them to leave. If it is really his property, I suggest he serve an eviction notice and arrest the monks, but he can't. Why? Because he doesn't truly own the property.

And no, I don't believe your bishops are canonical, so I can condemn them . I guess its perspective we are dealing with here .

jckstraw72 · Aug 29, 2006

Greg the byzantine said:
Been listening to old Calendarist propaganda haven't we

of course they would say ive been listening to New Calendarist propaganda, so it goes both ways. just labeling it propaganda doesnt really mean anything. whats needed is presentation of facts, from both sides. unfortunately i have been unable to find the website that i came across before. i forget what i googled before.

but this brings up a question. in lifting the anathemas of 1054, what does this actually mean? wouldnt this put rome and constantinople back in coummunion with each other since theyre no longer anathematized from each other?

Oblio · Aug 29, 2006

When I say pray, I don't mean to the point of concelebration even, I mean things like the EP going to a Papal Mass.

Going to Mass is not praying with them. You have yet to give evidence of anyone praying with heretics in the context of the Holy Canons of the Church.

Nor do you realize the purpose of the Canons, and the reason for, and application of the Canons, and who has authority to do so.

Greg the byzantine · Aug 29, 2006

OIT said:
Hardly propaganda, at the same time, if anyone has been nasty to you, that is no good. I know there are alot of good New Calendarist people, at the same time, that still doesn't mean I can be part of it. I do, however, condemn those bishops who are unChristianlike to Old Calendarists; at least they can show some common Christian charity to the Old Calendarists. If they can do it with the Latins they can do it with the Old Calendarists. Granted though, persecution of the Old Calendarists has mostly ended.

Just like there are plently of Good Old Calendar people. My sister's boyfriend's mother goes to the Old Calendar Cathedral in Astoria St. Markella's , and she is an overall wonderful person, and from what I hear their priest is also a very Holy Man.

OIT · Aug 29, 2006

Oblio said:
Going to Mass is not praying with them. You have yet to give evidence of anyone praying with heretics in the context of the Holy Canons of the Church.

Nor do you realize the purpose of the Canons, and the reason for, and application of the Canons, and who has authority to do so.

Neither do you .

Oblio · Aug 29, 2006

I've been to Methodist services, and Congregational Easter services. Tell me, in your faith, is this praying with heretics ?

OIT · Aug 29, 2006

Maybe we should agree to disagree as there is no way either of us are going to convince each other.

I will say though, before you judge us as crazy schismatics, why don't you go meet some of the GOC bishops, monks, and priests, and see how crazy they are.

OIT · Aug 29, 2006

Oblio said:
I've been to Methodist services, and Congregational Easter services. Tell me, in your faith, is this praying with heretics ?

Yes. If I went to such services without a good reason, my priest wouldn't be happy. Heresy must be avoided AT ALL COSTS.

Greg the byzantine · Aug 29, 2006

jckstraw72 said:
of course they would say ive been listening to New Calendarist propaganda, so it goes both ways. just labeling it propaganda doesnt really mean anything. whats needed is presentation of facts, from both sides. unfortunately i have been unable to find the website that i came across before. i forget what i googled before.

but this brings up a question. in lifting the anathemas of 1054, what does this actually mean? wouldnt this put rome and constantinople back in coummunion with each other since theyre no longer anathematized from each other?

LOL Being in Communion would be to actually make a statement that the entire church recognizes the Sacraments of the RC Church and that RC's are aloud to Commune in EO churches Vice a versa. They are still in schism.

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