Holiness VS Worldliness

[Bumble Bee]

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This thread has been closed. Please refrain from flaming and goading remarks in all future posts.
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[SaintJoeNow]

Amen Very good point.

There comes a time when we have to ask one simple question:

Who has made the decree of holy or not?

Then we ask a critical question:

Who is declaring what is or is not sin?

Romans: 8. 1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

If God's not condemning those who are raised with Christ who else can?

It's seems like there are those who assume the Christian is spiritually blind.

It comes back around to :


2 Corinthians: 5. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

If you have to work on not sinning and being holy,you may need salvation.

You show a passionate desire to know God yourself, and an equally excellent passion to help others know Him well as you do. For this I commend you.

I have formally asked others to respect the OP of this thread and discuss the contrast of worldliness VS holiness in relation to the supporting scripture example of Exodus 32 and how 1 Peter 1:13-17 illustrates how we are supposed to be holy like Moses in Exodus 32 and all of his life serving God, and how we can be worldly like the children of Israel in Exodus 32 and how in 1Peter 1:13-17, it tells us what we are supposed to not do in order to keep from being worldly.

If you will not incorporate the half of this thread intended to discuss worldly behavior with in relation to the scriptures mentioned in the OP, it's becoming a harassment in repeatedly ignoring my requests to engage in conversation flowing from the OP and not ignoring half of the discussion.

 

[DarylFawcett]

ADMIN HAT ON!!!!!

Re-opening this thread with a notice to focus on the thread topic and not negatively on each other.

ADMIN HAT OFF!!!!!

 

[Hammster]

The example I want to start with here showing the contrast between holiness and worldiness is of Moses and the people of Israel after God had brought them out of Egypt. Moses tarried long in the mountain with God, and the children of Israel threw a party with a calf idol they made. In their hearts, they turned back to Egypt which symbolizes the world, and later in the desert they complained about eating manna from heaven as they longed for the food of Egypt and in their hearts they were turned back away from God.

The contrast of holiness shown in the face of Moses, who the Israelites had to cover with a veil because His face shined from the glory of God which, so to speak, had rubbed off on him during that time that God had Moses apart with Him in the mountain.

Verses I will cite in this thread, without now naming the chapter and verse, and perhaps not perfectly quoted as I am somewhat cognitively declined and have forgotten the exact verbatim quotes and chapter and verse referrances of the hundreds of passages I memorized in younger years......
"love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him... for all that is in the world, the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world..."
"frienship with the world is enmity with God"

What is the difference between holiness and worldliness? What makes a person holy?

"without holiness, no man shall see the Lord"

"be ye holy, for I am holy, saith the Lord"

So how can I say I am holy when you can see my faults?
Is there anything I can do to increase holiness?
What is holiness? really? What is it?

Questions? Comments? Snide Remarks?

In Christ,
Joe

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We aren't new creations because of what we do. It's because of who He is, and our position in Him.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Any good I do, it's Christ in me. I can do nothing worthy on my own accord.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:8-10 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Again, goodness comes from God.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

And we have Paul clearly stating that becoming Christ-like is not dependent upon us doing anything. We can surrender ourselves, but any change comes from God. And I think it's beneficial to understand that God may have reasons to grow us at different rates. In other words, one may grow faster or slower than another. Since it's God doing the work, we shouldn't be quick to judge. We should, however, be quick to always bring people to the cross. We should be quick to remind them to keep focused on Christ and His finished work. That's when the transformation happens.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Thank you for re-opening the worldliness VS holiness thread. I'm trying to bring the thread into focus around the OP. The Bible is clear in passages such as 1 Pet. 1:13-17 as illustrative of the differences between the behavior of Moses and the Israelites in Exodus 32. Toward the end of the thread, I tried to incorporate a modern-day illustration of worldly ducks being Donald and Daisy Duck from Disneyland, Daffy Duck of Bug's Bunny fame, Howard the Duck and The Mighty Ducks from the movies. None of these ducks gave thanks to God, none of them went to church, all of them were entertaining if not admirable characters and all of them represent ducks of the world, worldly ducks with worldly affections. A holy duck would be a duck who reads his Bible, prays to and gives thanks to God, and attends church, not as a hypocrite but as a person who honestly desires to avoid sinning as much as possible inside and outside of the church and confesses any sin in their hearts or lives as evil against God and desires forgiveness and growth as a child of God to be better able to abstain from the confessed sin.

These illustrations contrasting worldliness and holiness are clear. The thread's intention is for showing the difference between worldly affections and indulgences and holiness in action.

Holiness is all about God, focusing on Him and glorifying His Son willfully. This is seen in the actions of Moses in Exodus 32 specifically, and in his entire lifetime from when God spoke to Moses from the burning bush and called him to lead Israel.

Worldly affections and behaviors are those that exclude God from our thoughts, words, and actions. Those things were seen in the children of Israel, who (Acts 7:39-41)... in their hearts turned back again into Egypt, Saying unto Aaron, Make us gods to go before us: for as for this Moses, which brought us out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. And they made a calf in those days, and offered sacrifice unto the idol, and rejoiced in the works of their own hands.


In Exodus 32, the Israelites showed their love of the world when in their hearts they turned back toward Egypt, and they celebrated themselves, rejoicing in their own works, as they rejected God. They had a big party with singing, dancing, feasting, indulging so heavily that they got naked as they danced.

This behavior was in direct opposition to the holy behavior of Moses, and God wanted to kill all of the Israelites because of it. In James chapter 4, James calls the people who hold affections for the world "adulterers and adulteresses", not because he was accusing them of fornication specifically, but because God wants us to love Him exclusively and not to love the world. "

"Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. (James 4:4)"

In 1 John 2:15-17, we are admonished to. "Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." Here, the things of the world are clearly seen as temporary as "the world passeth away, and the lust thereof".

(1 Pet 1:13-17) Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:


(Col 3:2) Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

This thread is about the contrast of worldliness VS holiness, and how our affections for the world and the things of the world may show in our personal lives contrasted to how our affections for the Lord may show in our personal lives. These things depend on the choices we make in our behaviors.


Please focus discussions on the contrast of unholy, ungodly, or worldly behavior VS holy, or godly, or heavenly minded behavior.

This thread is not about only the fact that God makes us new creations in Christ. This thread is about the personal choices we make according to what we love in our time in this world. It is about the contrast between worldliness and holiness.

I'm asking all posters to focus on this contrast, not only give explanations of how God makes us new creations. This thread is about personal choices of behavior that may be godly or ungodly, worldly or heavenly, holy or unholy. There is a difference, it is a matter of personal choice in our actions. This is about our own actions, not about the work of God which does not depend on our actions.

It is understood that God will make all of His children to be exactly like Jesus in heaven and never sin again. That is not what this thread is about. Please remain on topic.

 

[Hammster]

I think it's a mistake to say " It is understood that God will make all of His children to be exactly like Jesus in heaven and never sin again." While technically true, the way it's written is in such a way as to imply that the conforming doesn't start here, and that we can somehow contribute to our sinning less by the strength of our will. That's not being conformed. In fact, it's a form of legalism, which is worldliness.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I think it's a mistake to say " It is understood that God will make all of His children to be exactly like Jesus in heaven and never sin again." While technically true, the way it's written is in such a way as to imply that the conforming doesn't start here, and that we can somehow contribute to our sinning less by the strength of our will. That's not being conformed. In fact, it's a form of legalism, which is worldliness.

This is off topic.

 

[Hammster]

This is off topic.

Not at all. It might go against what you believe. But it's definitely addressing what you said.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I think it's a mistake to say " It is understood that God will make all of His children to be exactly like Jesus in heaven and never sin again." While technically true, the way it's written is in such a way as to imply that the conforming doesn't start here, and that we can somehow contribute to our sinning less by the strength of our will. That's not being conformed. In fact, it's a form of legalism, which is worldliness.

Ok...let's start with this and see if we are understanding each other at all. You are trying to say sinning less is worldliness and not holiness?

Quoting you above here:

"we can somehow contribute to our sinning less by the strength of our will....it's a form of legalism, which is worldliness".....I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you trying to say we have no power to avoid sinning, and if we try to abstain from any particular sin we are being worldly? Can you show me where the Bible says anything like that? That certainly is not what this thread is about, but if you can show me in the Bible where it says it is worldly to use our will power to keep ourselves from sinning, I would like to see it. I thought sin was an act of the will, and we can by willful choice decide not to do things like steal, look on a woman with lust in our hearts, take the Lord's name in vain...and so forth. How is it being worldly if I decide to abstain from a sin I can name? Is it "legalism" and wrong for me to say it's wrong to steal, wrong to lie, wrong to look on a woman with lust in your heart, wrong to sit idle in front of a movie screen watching half naked people glorify everything in the world other than the Savior, like the children of Israel did in Exodus 32?

Are you trying to say we are unable to keep our eyes from looking on a woman with lust in our hearts, and we are unable to keep our tongues from saying the Lord's name in vain, and we are unable to keep our hands from stealing, and we are unable to discipline ourselves to read the Bible, pray, attend church, and share our faith because if we are doing these things, we can't sit in front of the T.V and watch half naked people dancing to rock and roll? Watching TV like that would be worldly behavior. Doing things to honor God in obedience to His commands is holy behavior.

Do you really think you cannot contribute to your sinning less by the strength of your will?


1 Pet 1:15 "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation"

Are you trying to change the Bible so this verse should say something like "He that hath called you is holy, and you can't be holy so don't worry about it and enjoy yourselves and watch movies on TV because you are saved."




You yourself quoted Romans 12:1-2, in which we are commanded to "be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your minds..." It seems to me that this implies we must use our will power and we can use it in a way to honor God and be holy



1 Pet 1:13-17 tells us how to be holy. Is Peter teaching legalism? Is that what you are trying to say? are you trying to say being obedient to God is legalism? So are you trying to say that God is a dictator, or are you trying to say that Peter was wrong in teaching legalism?

Exodus 32 shows the contrast of being holy like Moses or being worldly like the Israelites who put God out of their thoughts and indulged in worldly pleasures and entertainments.

try to discuss the OP, and not dismiss it by saying it's about legalism unless you are going to say Peter was teaching legalism in 1 Peter 1:13-17.

Is that what you are tying to say? You are trying to say Peter is teaching legalism and Peter is wrong for doing it in 1 Pet 1:13-17?

Please try to stay on topic and try to focus on key passages related to the OP, which are Exodus 32 and 1 Pet 1:13-17

Maybe you can offer your comments about how the worldly ducks I talked about in my last post were being worldly and not being holy.

 

[Hammster]

Ok...let's start with this and see if we are understanding each other at all. You are trying to say sinning less is worldliness and not holiness?

Quoting you above here:

"we can somehow contribute to our sinning less by the strength of our will....it's a form of legalism, which is worldliness".....I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you trying to say we have no power to avoid sinning, and if we try to abstain from any particular sin we are being worldly? Can you show me where the Bible says anything like that? That certainly is not what this thread is about, but if you can show me in the Bible where it says it is worldly to use our will power to keep ourselves from sinning, I would like to see it. I thought sin was an act of the will, and we can by willful choice decide not to do things like steal, look on a woman with lust in our hearts, take the Lord's name in vain...and so forth. How is it being worldly if I decide to abstain from a sin I can name? Is it "legalism" and wrong for me to say it's wrong to steal, wrong to lie, wrong to look on a woman with lust in your heart, wrong to sit idle in front of a movie screen watching half naked people glorify everything in the world other than the Savior, like the children of Israel did in Exodus 32?

Are you trying to say we are unable to keep our eyes from looking on a woman with lust in our hearts, and we are unable to keep our tongues from saying the Lord's name in vain, and we are unable to keep our hands from stealing, and we are unable to discipline ourselves to read the Bible, pray, attend church, and share our faith because if we are doing these things, we can't sit in front of the T.V and watch half naked people dancing to rock and roll? Watching TV like that would be worldly behavior. Doing things to honor God in obedience to His commands is holy behavior.

Do you really think you cannot contribute to your sinning less by the strength of your will?


1 Pet 1:15 "But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation"

Are you trying to change the Bible so this verse should say something like "He that hath called you is holy, and you can't be holy so don't worry about it and enjoy yourselves and watch movies on TV because you are saved."




You yourself quoted Romans 12:1-2, in which we are commanded to "be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your minds..." It seems to me that this implies we must use our will power and we can use it in a way to honor God and be holy



1 Pet 1:13-17 tells us how to be holy. Is Peter teaching legalism? Is that what you are trying to say? are you trying to say being obedient to God is legalism? So are you trying to say that God is a dictator, or are you trying to say that Peter was wrong in teaching legalism?

Exodus 32 shows the contrast of being holy like Moses or being worldly like the Israelites who put God out of their thoughts and indulged in worldly pleasures and entertainments.

try to discuss the OP, and not dismiss it by saying it's about legalism unless you are going to say Peter was teaching legalism in 1 Peter 1:13-17.

Is that what you are tying to say? You are trying to say Peter is teaching legalism and Peter is wrong for doing it in 1 Pet 1:13-17?

Please try to stay on topic and try to focus on key passages related to the OP, which are Exodus 32 and 1 Pet 1:13-17

Maybe you can offer your comments about how the worldly ducks I talked about in my last post were being worldly and not being holy.

It will be difficult to have a discussion if you're going to ask me a clarifying question, assume an answer, then go on to counter what you think I was going to say.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

It will be difficult to have a discussion if you're going to ask me a clarifying question, assume an answer, then go on to counter what you think I was going to say.

So clarify. Did I misunderstand you? You are saying that in 1 Pet 1:13-17, Peter is teaching legalism, correct? And you are saying it's wrong to teach legalism, correct? You are saying that if we try to do the things Peter is telling us to do in 1et 1:13-17, then we are practicing legalism and being worldly because legalism is worldly, correct? I thought Donald Duck was worldly because he is not godly and not holy. He's a duck of the world, not a duck of God. Donald Duck does what a worldly duck does, fashioning himself to worldly lusts, doesn't he? We don't want to dilly dally like Donald Duck does, do we? We want to be sober, and gird up the loins of our minds, and be holy in all manner of conversation like Peter said we should, don't we? Or are you trying to say that following Peter's advice is legalism and wrong because it's worldly to be legalistic and then we will be Donald Duck hypocrites? Is that what you are saying?


And you are saying that in Exodus 32, after God gave the ten commandments, and the Israelites turned their back on God and Moses and had a party while Moses was in the mountain with God, when Moses came down from the mountain he taught legalism, right?

Now I thought both of those passages were about the contrast between worldliness and holiness, but you are trying to tell me that Moses and Peter were teaching legalism and that to try to do the things Moses and Peter were teaching would be to be worldly, correct? Isn't that what you said? Please clarify if I am misunderstanding you.

 

[twob4me]

~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT ON!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Okay from this Mod Hat forward please STAY on topic. The Off Topic rule states:

Submit replies that are relevant to the topic of discussion.

~~~~~~~~~~~~MOD HAT OFF!!~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[now faith]

So clarify. Did I misunderstand you? You are saying that in 1 Pet 1:13-17, Peter is teaching legalism, correct? And you are saying it's wrong to teach legalism, correct? You are saying that if we try to do the things Peter is telling us to do in 1et 1:13-17, then we are practicing legalism and being worldly because legalism is worldly, correct? I thought Donald Duck was worldly because he is not godly and not holy. He's a duck of the world, not a duck of God. Donald Duck does what a worldly duck does, fashioning himself to worldly lusts, doesn't he? We don't want to dilly dally like Donald Duck does, do we? We want to be sober, and gird up the loins of our minds, and be holy in all manner of conversation like Peter said we should, don't we? Or are you trying to say that following Peter's advice is legalism and wrong because it's worldly to be legalistic and then we will be Donald Duck hypocrites? Is that what you are saying?


And you are saying that in Exodus 32, after God gave the ten commandments, and the Israelites turned their back on God and Moses and had a party while Moses was in the mountain with God, when Moses came down from the mountain he taught legalism, right?

Now I thought both of those passages were about the contrast between worldliness and holiness, but you are trying to tell me that Moses and Peter were teaching legalism and that to try to do the things Moses and Peter were teaching would be to be worldly, correct? Isn't that what you said? Please clarify if I am misunderstanding you.

I am having trouble understanding the correlation between , 1st Peter and Exodus.

Before the law of Moses there was no sin,only death.

No man could earn his salvation by the law because no man could keep the whole law.

One small infraction and your had violated the whole law.

The law required works of a sin offering, now we have a better covenant than the law.

We are saved by Grace not of works lest any man should boast.

15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,

16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil.

17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is.

18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;


The aforementioned verses is our example of living a Holy life.


Our reality is that we live in a temporal world ,and Donald duck is part of the world we live in.

We cannot change our environment,nor will our environment change for us.

We can live for the Lord and make him first in our life,as well we can refrain from idolatry.

What would your post suggest we do in order to live Holy?

 

[Hammster]

Ok...let's start with this and see if we are understanding each other at all. You are trying to say sinning less is worldliness and not holiness?

Quoting you above here:

"we can somehow contribute to our sinning less by the strength of our will....it's a form of legalism, which is worldliness".....I'm not sure what you mean by this.

Probably because you tore apart what I said, and didn't quite the whole thing. Here's what I said:

"I think it's a mistake to say " It is understood that God will make all of His children to be exactly like Jesus in heaven and never sin again." While technically true, the way it's written is in such a way as to imply that the conforming doesn't start here, and that we can somehow contribute to our sinning less by the strength of our will. That's not being conformed. In fact, it's a form of legalism, which is worldliness."

My point is that the transformation starts here in this life. It doesn't, however, happen because we do good things. Anything we do that's pleasing to God is BECAUSE we are being transformed. It is not the cause.

Thats why Paul said

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I am having trouble understanding the correlation between , 1st Peter and Exodus.



Our reality is that we live in a temporal world ,and Donald duck is part of the world we live in.

We cannot change our environment,nor will our environment change for us.

We can live for the Lord and make him first in our life,as well we can refrain from idolatry.

What would your post suggest we do in order to live Holy?

First of all, don's say we cannot change our environment. If you are typing from your smart phone while you are sitting in a saloon,(which of course you are not, but let's pretend you are in this example) you are in an unholy, worldly environment and you can change it easily. Get up and get out of there!!! Just don't drink and drive...and then quit drinking completely. Stop living worldly and start living holy. Don't say you can't change your environment. Stop saying stuff like that. It's ungodly speech. That's the kind of stuff people say to make excuses for worldly behavior and I'm sure you don't excuse worldly behavior because I know you are a godly man.

Second, go with Ephesians 5 if you like that better than I Pet 1:13-17. They are both saying the same things, "be ye holy".

Now Faith sir my friend,

Thank you for your desire to impart your understanding of God to others, and your desire to show how we can live for the Lord and make him first in our life as well as we can refrain from idolatry. That is being holy, living a holy life, following holiness moment by moment.

Why don't you ask me what things I suggest we do if we want to live worldly?
The thread is about the CONTRAST between worldliness and holiness. Surely you live holy and not worldly and you don't listen to head banging rock and roll music which sings about anarchy and fornication and drugs and money and Donald Duck's Daffy Doings, so why not ask me about things we can do that are being worldly in CONTRAAST to things we can do which are being holy?


I HOPE THE FOLLOWING ANSWERS YOUR QUESTION though I really think you know the answer before you asked.

Go with Ephesians 5 as you quoted, do those things always and you will not be able to be worldly and the holiness in your life will be in contrast to the worldliness in Donald Ducks around you. You have substituted Ephesians 5 for I Pet 1:13, and that is fine as long as you don't cut I 1 Pet 1:13-17 out of the Bible because you like Ephesians 5 better. Both passages tell you how to be holy, and both passages show the difference between being holy like Moses and worldly like the children of Israel in Exodus 32.

Please remember that this thread is about the CONTRAST in behavior that is worldly and behavior that is holy. Singing and dancing around an idol like the Israelites did in Exodus 32, even to the point of disrobing, feasting as they did it was unholy, worldly, ungodly. It was all about themselves, enjoying themselves, playing, having fun in disobedience to God, satisfying temporal pleasures of lusts...the lust of the eyes, the lust of the flesh, and the pride of life. They were stiffnecked in disobedience, pride against God and having fun doing it while Moses was working hard believing God and obeying God and serving God....being holy.



It would be nice if in this thread you would remain on topic and focus on the CONTRAST between worldly behavior shown in the Israelites in Exodus 32 after they broke the Law of God (not the law of Moses) given to them in Exodus 20 by God, and the holy behavior of Moses. If you do the things you quoted in Ephesians 5, you are being holy. If you do the things the Israelites did in Exodus 32, you are being worldly. Ephesians 5 tells you what to do which is in contrast to what the Israelites were doing in Exodus 32.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Probably because you tore apart what I said, and didn't quite the whole thing. Here's what I said:

"I think it's a mistake to say " It is understood that God will make all of His children to be exactly like Jesus in heaven and never sin again." While technically true, the way it's written is in such a way as to imply that the conforming doesn't start here, and that we can somehow contribute to our sinning less by the strength of our will. That's not being conformed. In fact, it's a form of legalism, which is worldliness."

My point is that the transformation starts here in this life. It doesn't, however, happen because we do good things. Anything we do that's pleasing to God is BECAUSE we are being transformed. It is not the cause.

Thats why Paul said

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

I still don't understand why you are trying to say Exodus 32 and I Pet 1:13-17 are not about the contrast between worldliness and holiness but rather are passages in the Bible which teach legalism which is worldliness. I don't know how you are getting that, I don't understand what you mean by saying worldliness is legalism, and I don't see how it is on topic in this thread. It seems you are trying to take the thread off topic into a discussion of the conforming work of God which has nothing to do with the discussion of this thread which is about our personal choices of self-control to be holy and not worldly as shown in Exodus 32 and in advising/commanding passages such as I Pet. 1:13-17 and Ephesians 5. You can't be holy if you are not believing and obeying God, and if you are to in obedience to God you are going to be worldly. That is what Exodus 32 showed, Moses believing and obeying God and the children of Israel doing the opposite and having fun while they did it. How is that teaching legalism? How is it teaching a form of legalism which is worldliness to say we should be like Moses who was being holy and not be like the children of Israel who were being worldly? Trying to understand what you are saying is making my head spin. Please help me out on this.

 

[Hammster]

I still don't understand why you are trying to say Exodus 32 and I Pet 1:13-17 are not about the contrast between worldliness and holiness but rather are passages in the Bible which teach legalism which is worldliness. I don't know how you are getting that, I don't understand what you mean by saying worldliness is legalism, and I don't see how it is on topic in this thread. It seems you are trying to take the thread off topic into a discussion of the conforming work of God which has nothing to do with the discussion of this thread which is about our personal choices of self-control to be holy and not worldly as shown in Exodus 32 and in advising/commanding passages such as I Pet. 1:13-17 and Ephesians 5. You can't be holy if you are not believing and obeying God, and if you are to in obedience to God you are going to be worldly. That is what Exodus 32 showed, Moses believing and obeying God and the children of Israel doing the opposite and having fun while they did it. How is that teaching legalism? How is it teaching a form of legalism which is worldliness to say we should be like Moses who was being holy and not be like the children of Israel who were being worldly? Trying to understand what you are saying is making my head spin. Please help me out on this.

Okay, you say this thread is about self-control. Is self-control something you can muster within yourself, or is it a gift from God?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Okay, you say this thread is about self-control. Is self-control something you can muster within yourself, or is it a gift from God?

edited

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Okay, you say this thread is about self-control. Is self-control something you can muster within yourself, or is it a gift from God?

Mr Hammster, I appreciate your desire to understand God better and your desire to help others know Him better. We can work together on this if you will acknowledge, understand, and focus on the title, topic, and OP of this thread.


.... Are you still unaware that the topic of this thread is as the title, worldliness VS. Holiness? This thread is about the contrast of worldly behavior as seen in the Israelites in Exodus 32 vs. (or in contrast to) the holy behavior of Moses. The theme of being holy and not worldly is carried throughout the Bible, and the contrast in those behaviors is seen throughout the Bible. If you cannot discuss the differences between behavior that shows affections for the world vs. behavior that shows affections toward God, if you cannot understand what this thread is about, I suggest you try to start by studying the passages of Exodus 32, maybe start reading in Exodus 20, after you read I Pet 1:13-17 as an overview to see the difference between being holy as God through Peter commands us to be and being worldly according to our self-centered desires as the children of Israel were in Exodus 32. When you can see the contrast between holy behavior and worldly behavior, then we can talk about it and maybe we can engage others in productive discussion on the topic.

 

[Hammster]

Mr Hammster, I appreciate your desire to understand God better and your desire to help others know Him better. We can work together on this if you will acknowledge, understand, and focus on the title, topic, and OP of this thread.


.... Are you still unaware that the topic of this thread is as the title, worldliness VS. Holiness? This thread is about the contrast of worldly behavior as seen in the Israelites in Exodus 32 vs. (or in contrast to) the holy behavior of Moses. The theme of being holy and not worldly is carried throughout the Bible, and the contrast in those behaviors is seen throughout the Bible. If you cannot discuss the differences between behavior that shows affections for the world vs. behavior that shows affections toward God, if you cannot understand what this thread is about, I suggest you try to start by studying the passages of Exodus 32, maybe start reading in Exodus 20, after you read I Pet 1:13-17 as an overview to see the difference between being holy as God through Peter commands us to be and being worldly according to our self-centered desires as the children of Israel were in Exodus 32. When you can see the contrast between holy behavior and worldly behavior, then we can talk about it and maybe we can engage others in productive discussion on the topic.

I'll I'm doing is addressing what you say. Here's what you said:

It seems you are trying to take the thread off topic into a discussion of the conforming work of God which has nothing to do with the discussion of this thread which is about our personal choices of self-control to be holy and not worldly as shown in Exodus 32 and in advising/commanding passages such as I Pet. 1:13-17 and Ephesians 5.

So, it seems that you are saying that self-control is necessary to be holy and not worldly. So, s self- control something you can muster within yourself, or is it a gift from God?