Holiness VS Worldliness

[Avid]

Some of the reasons given for holiness in this thread is that we might be a conviction to the world. My comment was to that premise and is on topic.

Christ strictly forbid us to do anything to be seen of men.

Mat_6:1-5
Mat_23:5


Certainly we are to be witnesses to men but that doesn't mean that they will see it. More than that our witness is never to be a show it is to be a sincere and honest declaration of Christ by the Gospel.

Christ forbid praying in restaurants:

(Mat 6:5-6)

We can just as easily pray silently and to ourselves thanking God for His bounty and asking Him to bless it to our bodies. I can think of only one reason why men would clap hands around the table and pry aloud in a restaurant. It is to be seen of men.

Of course nowadays if you don't people think you aren't a "Christian".

This is good, and it always makes me think and consider God's truth when i read your posts. Jesus said many things, and we try to apply them properly. Man's tradition and his ways seep in, and we get some type of mutation that defies what God intended. This was a source of confusion for the people who interacted with our LORD Jesus Christ while He walked this Earth.

I agree with your point to a certain degree, but there is an absolute there that fails the test of ABSOLUTES. There are cases where behavior "that they may see" has its proper place.

Matthew 5
13 ¶ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Acts 5
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
12 ¶ And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
​

I am not trying to diminish the truth of what you wrote, but only qualify it as pertaining to putting the hand of flesh to the works of God. This does not suggest that, but that, IN DOING WHAT WE SHOULD, and not being ashamed to profess Christ in words and deeds, we do fulfill the intent of the LORD.

Let us agree that it is the command of the LORD, and not the ways of men, that make our behavior right and pleasing to God. We cannot come up with a set of rules, as that has been tried in vain. We can be submitted to God, and He can cause our behavior to shine forth, and be a beacon for praise or for conviction and warning among men.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

This is good, and it always makes me think and consider God's truth when i read your posts. Jesus said many things, and we try to apply them properly. Man's tradition and his ways seep in, and we get some type of mutation that defies what God intended. This was a source of confusion for the people who interacted with our LORD Jesus Christ while He walked this Earth.

I agree with your point to a certain degree, but there is an absolute there that fails the test of ABSOLUTES. There are cases where behavior "that they may see" has its proper place.

Matthew 5
13 ¶ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Acts 5
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
12 ¶ And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
​

I am not trying to diminish the truth of what you wrote, but only qualify it as pertaining to putting the hand of flesh to the works of God. This does not suggest that, but that, IN DOING WHAT WE SHOULD, and not being ashamed to profess Christ in words and deeds, we do fulfill the intent of the LORD.

Let us agree that it is the command of the LORD, and not the ways of men, that make our behavior right and pleasing to God. We cannot come up with a set of rules, as that has been tried in vain. We can be submitted to God, and He can cause our behavior to shine forth, and be a beacon for praise or for conviction and warning among men.

If we are filled with the Holy Spirit, HOLINESS is the rule, joyful obedience is evidence, and rivers of living water will flow out of our bellies, waters of love from God, holy waters that wash away impurity like a flood washes away the most carefully planted crops.

The things we hold dear in this world become nothing compared to the love of God which compels us to give thanks in and for all things, to rejoice evermore, to pray without ceasing, to become fishers of men as Jesus said He would make us to be if we follow Him. With our seat in the heavenlies, and our bodies the boats floating in a world full of sin and dying fish, the love of God the fire and fuel by which we move, we cast out bait, the word of God, seeds that might fall in good ground to spring up in a new life, so we long to see what God wants, people to be born again as His children, He paid the price in full with His own blood which covers us...so we take up our cross daily, denying ourselves to follow Him.

Holiness is serving the Lord with fear, and rejoicing with trembling, not following rules to make you miserable because the Holy Spirit can't look at a television show full of jokes and fornication. Holiness joyfully turns away from anything tainted with sin, to follow Jesus who for the joy that was set before Him endured the suffering of the cross, despising the shame.

Why in the world Christians think it's shameful to preach holiness against worldliness is beyond me...but I was a worldly Christian for many years, enjoying all the cultural pleasures and indulgences, preaching how nobody was supposed to judge my behavior because I was God's property and He makes me stand or fall and nobody can tell me what to do except for God.

"Be ye holy, for I am holy, saith the LORD"

friendship with the world is enmity with God.

 

[Avid]

... Jesus who for the joy that was set before Him endured the suffering of the cross, despising the shame.

Why in the world Christians think it's shameful to preach holiness against worldliness is beyond me...

This is a subject unto itself. SHAME is lacking where it should keep people from acting sinfully, and breaking God's laws with impunity. Shame of society refusing to accept sinful behavior kept many people out of trouble who otherwise would run to the same excess.

On the other side of this same coin stood Jesus who faced the shame of the worst form of execution the world has devised, and had reserved for only the worst criminals. That shame was spoken of by the Apostle Paul as he recounted, "cursed is every man that hangeth on a tree." Jesus took on Himself the CURSE and the PENALTY of our crimes. The SHAME was intended to keep Him from standing for truth in this wicked world, and he despised that aspect of it. He despised how it was intended to prevent Him from being what God sent Him here to be.

Let the right type of shame keep us from bad behavior, but let us recognize and resist the wrong kind of shame that would keep us from speaking out against sin, and Satan, and all the wicked ways of the world.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

This is a subject unto itself. SHAME is lacking where it should keep people from acting sinfully, and breaking God's laws with impunity. Shame of society refusing to accept sinful behavior kept many people out of trouble who otherwise would run to the same excess.

On the other side of this same coin stood Jesus who faced the shame of the worst form of execution the world has devised, and had reserved for only the worst criminals. That shame was spoken of by the Apostle Paul as he recounted, "cursed is every man that hangeth on a tree." Jesus took on Himself the CURSE and the PENALTY of our crimes. The SHAME was intended to keep Him from standing for truth in this wicked world, and he despised that aspect of it. He despised how it was intended to prevent Him from being what God sent Him here to be.

Let the right type of shame keep us from bad behavior, but let us recognize and resist the wrong kind of shame that would keep us from speaking out against sin, and Satan, and all the wicked ways of the world.

AMEN!!!

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Brace yourselves now, I'm going to be preachy here...I don't want anybody to get mad, try to remember that Jesus said in In Luke 12:8... "Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:" and also in Matthew 10:32...Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

In Mark 8:38... Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.


The illustration about praying silently in a restaurant where it is not forbidden by the owner of the establishment or by the law of the land to thank God in Jesus' name conversationally is a good example of compromising to fit in with culture, and this is what worldliness is about. Holiness always has a line of separation from the world. If I am praying silently, nobody knows if I am praying to God or praying to Satan. Many lost people pray silently, many people thank God for their food verbally...but few say thank you to God in Jesus' name. Holiness has a line of distinction, and that line is Jesus, and if we are hiding his name so that we appear to be like the rest of the world when we pray silently which is politically correct "moment of silence" bowing down to the culture and placing the culture above the name of Jesus, we are being worldly and not holy.

If I'm with another person at a restaurant, that person or me is going to say thank you to God for this food in Jesus' name, the same if I were sitting there talking to you. Jesus said if we are ashamed of Him, He will be ashamed of us. If we will confess Him before men, He will confess us to His heavenly father.

I think if a Christian is more concerned about the people watching them than they are concerned about treating our Savior as He is, real and present, and even more than that, the greatest person anybody could ask to be in company of.....if a Christian is too timid to say to God thank you for the food in Jesus' name......I think they should be ashamed of themselves for acting like the one who died for them is an embarrassment to their dinner table if they speak like He is actually there with them.

I think it is worldly to bow and silently thank God and not mention Jesus like He is one of the people who is there at the table with you. I think if you are being holy, you have to be thankful and unashamed to say it's Jesus you thank....as long as the law of our land permits you to thank God for your food in Jesus's name, why not do it for the Lord's name sake? Don't be afraid. When the law forbids you from thanking God in Jesus' name, then I can understand if you won't do it in public........but there is going to be a line you cannot cross if you are God's property. It's time to be strong in the Lord now, and pray for grace to help in time of need.

 

[twin1954]

This is good, and it always makes me think and consider God's truth when i read your posts. Jesus said many things, and we try to apply them properly. Man's tradition and his ways seep in, and we get some type of mutation that defies what God intended. This was a source of confusion for the people who interacted with our LORD Jesus Christ while He walked this Earth.

I agree with your point to a certain degree, but there is an absolute there that fails the test of ABSOLUTES. There are cases where behavior "that they may see" has its proper place.

Matthew 5
13 ¶ Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid.
15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house.
16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Acts 5
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
12 ¶ And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.
13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.
​

I am not trying to diminish the truth of what you wrote, but only qualify it as pertaining to putting the hand of flesh to the works of God. This does not suggest that, but that, IN DOING WHAT WE SHOULD, and not being ashamed to profess Christ in words and deeds, we do fulfill the intent of the LORD.

Let us agree that it is the command of the LORD, and not the ways of men, that make our behavior right and pleasing to God. We cannot come up with a set of rules, as that has been tried in vain. We can be submitted to God, and He can cause our behavior to shine forth, and be a beacon for praise or for conviction and warning among men.

As I said in my post the light that shines from us is the light of the glorious Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ.

(2Co 4:3) But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:

(2Co 4:4) In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

(2Co 4:5) For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.

(2Co 4:6) For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

(1Jn 1:3) That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

(1Jn 1:4) And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.

(1Jn 1:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

(1Jn 1:6) If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:


The city set on a hill and the witness we are to share is the Gospel of Christ. Our lives are not to be seen of men but are simply the walk of faith looking unto Jesus the Author and finisher of our faith.

Paul told us to walk the same way we received Christ.

(Col 2:6) As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

(Col 2:7) Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

How is it that we received Christ? By faith not by works. We walk in Him in exactly the same way.

Those who walk by faith alone are actually free to do good works which God has foreordained that we should walk in them. Yet we recognize that our best in this body of death is tainted with sin and therefore we must rest in Christ alone and give no place for works in our hope.

We do not look to so-called holy lives to earn any favor or even a larger portion of the Spirit. That is legalism.

We are never told to examine others to be sure but when we are told to examine ourselves we are not told to look for how we live but what we believe.
(1Co 11:27) Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

(1Co 11:28) But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

(1Co 11:29) For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Of course the context is Paul teaching about the Lord's Supper. Unfortunately religion has twisted the meaning of this passage and kept many from partaking because of false teaching from it.

When Paul says let a man examine himself he is not saying let him look to see if he has any sin in his life. If that were the case none of us would qualify. Being a sinner is exactly what qualifies us to take of the body and blood of the Lord. What he is saying is examine whether you believe or not. Do you trust Christ as your all in all? To eat and drink unworthily is to eat and drink without faith in Christ.

(2Co 13:5) Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Again Paul is not telling us to look for "fruit". We are to examine ourselves to know whether we believe rightly the Gospel of Christ. We are to make sure our hope is a genuine hope and not based in a false tradition or false teaching.

(1Jn 4:1) Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

(1Jn 4:2) Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

(1Jn 4:3) And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

To confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh isn't just assenting to historical facts but to rest in Him alone, looking to yourself for nothing.

I will stop there.

 

[twin1954]

Brace yourselves now, I'm going to be preachy here...I don't want anybody to get mad, try to remember that Jesus said in In Luke 12:8... "Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:" and also in Matthew 10:32...Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

In Mark 8:38... Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.


The illustration about praying silently in a restaurant where it is not forbidden by the owner of the establishment or by the law of the land to thank God in Jesus' name conversationally is a good example of compromising to fit in with culture, and this is what worldliness is about. Holiness always has a line of separation from the world. If I am praying silently, nobody knows if I am praying to God or praying to Satan. Many lost people pray silently, many people thank God for their food verbally...but few say thank you to God in Jesus' name. Holiness has a line of distinction, and that line is Jesus, and if we are hiding his name so that we appear to be like the rest of the world when we pray silently which is politically correct "moment of silence" bowing down to the culture and placing the culture above the name of Jesus, we are being worldly and not holy.

If I'm with another person at a restaurant, that person or me is going to say thank you to God for this food in Jesus' name, the same if I were sitting there talking to you. Jesus said if we are ashamed of Him, He will be ashamed of us. If we will confess Him before men, He will confess us to His heavenly father.

I think if a Christian is more concerned about the people watching them than they are concerned about treating our Savior as He is, real and present, and even more than that, the greatest person anybody could ask to be in company of.....if a Christian is too timid to say to God thank you for the food in Jesus' name......I think they should be ashamed of themselves for acting like the one who died for them is an embarrassment to their dinner table if they speak like He is actually there with them.

I think it is worldly to bow and silently thank God and not mention Jesus like He is one of the people who is there at the table with you. I think if you are being holy, you have to be thankful and unashamed to say it's Jesus you thank....as long as the law of our land permits you to thank God for your food in Jesus's name, why not do it for the Lord's name sake? Don't be afraid. When the law forbids you from thanking God in Jesus' name, then I can understand if you won't do it in public........but there is going to be a line you cannot cross if you are God's property. It's time to be strong in the Lord now, and pray for grace to help in time of need.

You are free to think me "less spiritual" than yourself because I do not make a show of prayer in public unless it is at the proper time and place: worship service, funerals etc.

You are not going to hurt my feelings or offend me in the least.

But I would offer you the advice of checking that you are not falling into legalism. I am a bit concerned that you may be. Seeking to honor Christ is one thing and proper. But laying a burden of your ideas of holiness on others is something else altogether.

 

[Avid]

... We do not look to so-called holy lives to earn any favor or even a larger portion of the Spirit. That is legalism.

We are never told to examine others to be sure but when we are told to examine ourselves we are not told to look for how we live but what we believe...

I have been careful to show that nothing I am saying is intended to earn anything from God. It is not our good works that make us attractive to God. Our good works are a product of His grace working in us. That some people see it and glorify God is in keeping with the scriptures. That some of the world sees our lives and the things God does in our lives, and they dare not join us, is also, the work of the LORD. (Acts 5:13)

In none of this is the praise of men to ourselves intended as a goal. The scriptures do not suggest that, and they do not condone that. Further, a true Christian is not comfortable allowing themselves to receive the praise of men for good works EXCEPT to show forth the handiwork of God in their lives. (once I was blind, but now I see...)

Ephesians 2
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

II Timothy 3
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 2
7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Titus 2
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus 3
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

I Peter 2
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.
​

In none of the passages of scripture I cited is there any suggestion of LEGALISM. It is a product of the work of God in the hearts of men that brings forth good works. If these good works are not to be found, it is likely the work of God is not performed in the heart.

Holiness is a state in the heart of the person in whom God has worked by His grace. To be of the world, to love the world and the things in the world is a mark of those who know not the work of God in their hearts. Their heart is no different than any other person and is motivated by the same things. The person in whose heart the LORD has worked does not desire the same things.

I John 5
18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
​

I trust you can see that none of what I am saying suggests we have a good behavior to impress the world of who we are. In contrast, I have given scripture that shows this is the work of God, and not to have it shows the work of God is not in us. In this I am not defining what good behavior is, but we know it is what we thought was useless before we were saved, and consider it to be vital afterward.

Let us not put opinion above the scriptures of the word of God.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

You are free to think me "less spiritual" than yourself because I do not make a show of prayer in public unless it is at the proper time and place: worship service, funerals etc.

You are not going to hurt my feelings or offend me in the least.

But I would offer you the advice of checking that you are not falling into legalism. I am a bit concerned that you may be. Seeking to honor Christ is one thing and proper. But laying a burden of your ideas of holiness on others is something else altogether.

Now remember, you promised I'm not going to hurt your feeling or offend you, so I will speak freely and in advance ask your forgiveness just in case you forget that you promised I would not offend you. I do appreciate your desire to glorify the Lord by speaking so often about your faith in Him, and I commend you for it.

I do not wish to lay any burden on you which God does not want you to bear. If you feel I am saying things God is not saying to you, then the things I am saying do not apply to you and that is why you don't have to have any hurt feelings and can take no offense and I'm glad you will not hold against me the things I am saying here.

It's God laying His word on me, what I am saying is entirely Biblical. The first person I am preaching to here is myself, I'm talking about my own personal desire for holiness and the Biblical fact that holiness is in direct contrast to worldliness. If it doesn't bother you that's good. If it does bother you, I hope it bothers you enough that you will treat Jesus like the person of honor who He really is when He allows you to have dinner at a restaurant, and I hope it bothers you enough that you will say thank you to God in Jesus' name publicly when you dine. Why cave in to the world's opinion about when the proper time and place to thank God in Jesus's name is? To me it's an act of obedience. If you feel you don't have to show obedience to God this way, and if you feel it's good enough for you to pray silently and not mention the name of the One who brings you to God, well I guess that's better than not praying at all. I'm glad you feel enough obligation to bow silently and pray to express your thanks to God, and heaven forbid that I imply you feel this is an act of obedience for you, and heaven forbid that I anybody, even God, should expect you to always bow and pray silently in public.... and heaven forbid that you should teach your children that they are supposed to do as you do because we don't want you children accusing you of legalism. Just let them dig in and get started while you pray silently, no biggie.

I'm not putting any rule on you, or trying to say that my own following of a rule makes me holier than you. Many people thank God in Jesus' name for their food and then act like devils and heathen after dinner is over. If a person is a fake, they are a fake. For me, I know who bought me with His life's blood, I know who gives me air to breathe and I know who gives me food to eat and before I eat I'm going to give him the honor and thanks He deserves and not be ashamed to let everybody know I believe I am talking to Him for real because He is real and present and He deserves enough of my respect for me to thank Him publicly for the food He gives me to eat in public.

If you feel you do not need to honor Him and say thank you to God in Jesus' name for the food in a normal speaking tone of voice as if He is your real friend there with you, then don't do it. You will just have to forgive me for saying it seems you care more about fitting in with the world than you care about honoring the Savior.



And heaven forbid that I should tell you that you are supposed to pray without ceasing because the Bible tells you to pray without ceasing, that would be legalistic of me and it would not be a brotherly encouragement for you to live holy, right?

Let's take our Bibles and black out every verse in the New Testament that tells us how to act or what to do, especially the ones that say our music is supposed to be "psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, making melody in our hearts unto the Lord, admonishing one another with all doctrine more and more until we see the Lord"......let's black those out and put in "praising the Lord by listening to worldly music and tapping to the beat while we pray silently so it doesn't bother anybody if they see we are passionate about our faith"


Let's say we are holy while we act worldly, let's all hold hands with Donald Duck and Daisy Duck and hit the Ice Capades and slide around for a few laps while they play Disney Tunes and wiggle their tails. And if anybody says we look worldly and we don't look holy, we can tell them to quit being legalistic and put on some ice skates and come slide around with us. Praise the LORD

Ok sir, I'm sure none of this applies to you in any way so I'm glad you are not offended and have allowed me to speak freely. The thread is worldliness VS holiness, they are against each other, and you have helped me to show the contrast even though I'm sure you are holy when you pray silently over your dinner and you don't let anybody know that you believe Jesus gives you the right to approach God to say thank you to Him.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

After we have admitted that we deserve to die for our sins and we fear God's right to punish sin in eternal separation from Him even if that means eternal torment in Hell,

And after we have from our hearts believed on Jesus in His bodily resurrection, and have called on God in the name of Jesus who took our death to pay for our sins with His sinless blood and rose bodily from the grave offering complete forgiveness of sin and eternal life to all who will believe on Him and receive Him by faith,

After Jesus Himself has come into us by His Holy Spirit making us a new creation and lives in us and we have been born again....

He will get all the sin out of our lives one way or another entirely and forever and we will be holy because He wants us to be holy and He will have His way with us if we like it or not once we are His children by the second birth.

If you feel God gives you permission to act like all the worldly ducks such as Donald, Howard, Daffy, Daisy, The Mighty Ducks, who am I to say you don't have that permission? Who am I to tell you what God's word says about it if you have already decided it does not matter?

I think it matters and that's why I chose Exodus 32 as the theme illustration, and 1 Pet 1:13-17 as the simple command and summarization of how and why we are suppose do be holy like Moses and not worldly like the Disney Ducks and the Children of Israel who danced naked with singing and eating, rising up to play after they got rested a little..

It's still Worldliness VS Holiness, not just all about holiness with no explanation how worldliness contrasts against holiness, and holiness against worldliness.


I must be hitting the nail on the head because people sure seem to be jumping around avoiding talking about the OP and only trying to tell me how the things they say prove they are holy and it has nothing to do with the way they act, the songs they sing, or the places they go and the way they act in those places. If we are going to be holy, we are going to act holy. If we are going to try to fit in with the world, we are not going to act holy because the world will hate Jesus's disciples the same as they hated Jesus. That's why so many Christians are being tortured and killed all over the world NOW. The world hates Christians....unless of course the Christians play nice and go with the flow of the world.

 

[twin1954]

I have been careful to show that nothing I am saying is intended to earn anything from God.

Yes you have and I only intended that those who read these words will get hold of that. My responses to you are probably more to those who read than to you. I think you and I are actually fairly close on this and many other subjects. Though I think that I can share some light on a few of the passages you quote here.

It is not our good works that make us attractive to God. Our good works are a product of His grace working in us. That some people see it and glorify God is in keeping with the scriptures.

If they have eyes given by God they will. But I am convinced that believer are not usually even aware of the good works that they do that are ordained of God for them.

That some of the world sees our lives and the things God does in our lives, and they dare not join us, is also, the work of the LORD. (Acts 5:13)

(Mat 25:31) When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

(Mat 25:32) And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

(Mat 25:33) And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

(Mat 25:34) Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

(Mat 25:35) For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

(Mat 25:36) Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

(Mat 25:37) Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

(Mat 25:38) When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

(Mat 25:39) Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

(Mat 25:40) And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

The sheep will not even know that they had done these things that the Lord commends them for.

In none of this is the praise of men to ourselves intended as a goal. The scriptures do not suggest that, and they do not condone that. Further, a true Christian is not comfortable allowing themselves to receive the praise of men for good works EXCEPT to show forth the handiwork of God in their lives. (once I was blind, but now I see...)

True and agreed.

Ephesians 2
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. ​

I believe I have explained how this passage applies from Matt. 25.

II Timothy 3
17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Titus 2
7 In all things shewing thyself a pattern of good works: in doctrine shewing uncorruptness, gravity, sincerity,

Titus 2
14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Titus 3
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

I Peter 2
12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation.

​

In none of the passages of scripture I cited is there any suggestion of LEGALISM. It is a product of the work of God in the hearts of men that brings forth good works. If these good works are not to be found, it is likely the work of God is not performed in the heart.

I am in no way saying that believers do not perform good works. Of course we do. I am merely pointing out that when we do them in order for men to see them, that is unbelievers for believers already know and praise God for the good works of other believers which is the context of the admonitions to do good works, we are doing them to be seen of men. Unbelievers look at giving to the poor, feeding the hungry and such things with a whole different perspective. They see those things and praise them man doing them not God. The believer who does good works does them quietly and unseen simply because it is in his heart to do them. Do you know who cleans the toilet in your church? Do they do it in order for you to know they do it or because it is in their heart to do it? There lies the difference.

Our old nature loves the praise of men and certainly the unbeliever does.

Holiness is a state in the heart of the person in whom God has worked by His grace. To be of the world, to love the world and the things in the world is a mark of those who know not the work of God in their hearts. Their heart is no different than any other person and is motivated by the same things. The person in whose heart the LORD has worked does not desire the same things.

Again we agree.

I John 5
18 ¶ We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; ​

Lets look at what John had to say earlier on this subject. (1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
John is here speaking of the new nature which is the seed of Christ in us that cannot sin because it is born of God. Eph. 4:24 tells us to put on the new man which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. Peter tells us that we are partakers of the divine nature. 2Pet. 1:4 Believers are new creations not a reformation of the old one. We are flesh and spirit which constantly war with one another for dominion. Gal. 5:16-26
You might notice that "holiness" is not listed as a fruit of the Spirit.

(1Jn 3:10) In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.


but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.

​

I trust you can see that none of what I am saying suggests we have a good behavior to impress the world of who we are. In contrast, I have given scripture that shows this is the work of God, and not to have it shows the work of God is not in us. In this I am not defining what good behavior is, but we know it is what we thought was useless before we were saved, and consider it to be vital afterward.

Again agreed. I never once thought that you were either a legalist or suggesting that we do good works to be seen of men. I have been simply trying to advance my arguments by responding to you.

Let us not put opinion above the scriptures of the word of God.

I hope you don't think that is what I have been doing. I believe I have given sufficient Scripture passages to show my argument to be Biblical.

 

[Avid]

Yes you have and I only intended that those who read these words will get hold of that. My responses to you are probably more to those who read than to you. I think you and I are actually fairly close on this and many other subjects.

It does not hurt to repeat this, as I had in the past. I expect our slightly different perspective allows us both to shed light that brings glory to God, and His Christ.

Again agreed. I never once thought that you were either a legalist or suggesting that we do good works to be seen of men. I have been simply trying to advance my arguments by responding to you.

We share that in our intent through all our responses. We make a point, and it is the task of God's Holy Spirit to impart that understanding to any who hear or read. The true child of God rejoices at the stern preaching of God's holy truth from His precious word!

I hope you don't think that is what I have been doing. I believe I have given sufficient Scripture passages to show my argument to be Biblical.

As mentioned above, this is something we share as a goal. We both have displayed an intent to glorify God, and not the EGO of Man, or the work of his fallen nature.

We both have an important point to share, and we can both look to God for a deeper understanding. If there were only one thing God intended for EVERYONE to learn from each passage of scripture, there would not be a need for the thousands (millions?) of books that have been written to explain these things.

 

[Avid]

... You might notice that "holiness" is not listed as a fruit of the Spirit...

This is an excellent point. Seems I was using the term and the comparison of terms in a way that is a bit too general. Maybe the thread would be more clear in its intent if it were titled, "The New Nature versus The Old Nature."

We are in agreement mostly if not totally. The fruit of the Spirit working in the "saved" person shows forth the good works that are wrought of God. It has to do with the Rest we read of in Hebrews 4

Hebrews 4
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
​

The idea is that we have ceased doing our own works, and it is God that works through us. Hence, the fruit of our doing is pleasing to God. I believe that understanding will make us see the works of the holy are not their holiness before the LORD, but that the works are performed by God as a result. Holiness is not established by the works of the holy person, but are a fruit of the presence of God's Holy Spirit.

It is true the state of us being Holy before the LORD is a different matter, and that is part of us being a new creation, but is not directly the outcropping of works that are motivated and performed by God's Holy Spirit in us. It is a state created by our sanctification. If this is more of what you were saying, I think we are closer to agreement than it previously seemed.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

If the spirit you are of does not show holiness in fruit, how do you know it's the Holy Spirit leading you and not a spirit of the world which is unholy?

The world is full of love and friendship and tolerance and compassion and remains melting on thin ice over the fire of Hell...the Holy Spirit is absent there, no matter how much love they feel for each other or for anything in the world. If they are not born again, the Holy Spirit is not in their lives and the wrath of God abides on their shoulders no matter how much they love each other (John 3:36), and singing their songs and dancing to their music will only keep the beat of the time they are losing as the finality of death approaches and a lost man will never again be able to believe God loves him when he can only feel God's wrath in the fire of Hell after their time is counted down to zero. Holiness will compel us to redeem the time in obedience to God and not waste the time by singing the worlds songs and tapping our toes to the worlds rhythms. Holiness will compel us to look to Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith, and not look to the world for entertainments. Holiness compels us to redeem the time, not to pass the time. Peter said "I go fishing" after the Lord was risen, worldly fishing, not what Jesus had commanded him to do which was to be a fisher of men. Peter got caught naked wasting time, and threw himself into the water when Jesus appeared.

Now I'm not all against fishing. I like to fish, but when I fish, it's not for catching fish, it's for finding somebody on the lake who needs to hear the gospel, or giving the gospel to my lost friends as I fish with them, or for encouraging my Christian friends to be fishers of men more than fishers of fish. There is a difference between worldly fishing and holy fishing. Holy belongs to God, worldly belongs to the world.


Worldiness VS Holiness

There is a difference between being holy and being worldly, and if we do not choose to be holy we are going to be worldly and our sin will prevent us from seeing that we appear to be unholy.

If we choose to live godly, we must live holy. You cannot be worldly and godly, you cannot be worldly and holy. Without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. If any will live godly in Christ Jesus, they will suffer persecution. If you are afraid of the persecutions that are guaranteed for living godly which is holy and not worldly, you are not living godly or being holy, you are being worldly. It's really simple.

 

[twin1954]

This is an excellent point. Seems I was using the term and the comparison of terms in a way that is a bit too general. Maybe the thread would be more clear in its intent if it were titled, "The New Nature versus The Old Nature."

We are in agreement mostly if not totally. The fruit of the Spirit working in the "saved" person shows forth the good works that are wrought of God. It has to do with the Rest we read of in Hebrews 4

Hebrews 4
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 ¶ Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
​

The idea is that we have ceased doing our own works, and it is God that works through us. Hence, the fruit of our doing is pleasing to God. I believe that understanding will make us see the works of the holy are not their holiness before the LORD, but that the works are performed by God as a result. Holiness is not established by the works of the holy person, but are a fruit of the presence of God's Holy Spirit.

It is true the state of us being Holy before the LORD is a different matter, and that is part of us being a new creation, but is not directly the outcropping of works that are motivated and performed by God's Holy Spirit in us. It is a state created by our sanctification. If this is more of what you were saying, I think we are closer to agreement than it previously seemed.

The word for holy is the same word used for sanctify or sanctification. It has 3 basic meanings depending on the context: separated as holy unto God; declared holy by God and actually made holy by God. Not once is holiness or sanctification said to be a work of man. I do not hold to the tradition of progressive sanctification but that would be the subject of another thread.

I have no problem with living a life filled with the Spirit and seeking to honor Christ in all things. I have a problem with religious "holier than thou" holiness by which others are gauged as to their spirituality. It seems to me to be religious hypocrisy and a deceit of Satan.

 

[twin1954]

If the spirit you are of does not show holiness in fruit, how do you know it's the Holy Spirit leading you and not a spirit of the world which is unholy?

Because the Spirit of God always points you to Christ and not yourself.

(Joh 16:13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

(Joh 16:14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

(Joh 16:15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

You can always tell religion from truth by one simple guage: religion is always about things, is this thing sin or that thing, how am I supposed to live, how am I supposed to bring my children up or be a good father or mother. Always things. Truth, that is spiritual truth, is always about Christ: His person, work and people. Truth is centered in the Gospel of Christ and always points you to Him and away from yourself. Every practical teaching of Paul or any of the Apostles for that matter, was centered on the truth of the Gospel and in the context of the Gospel of Christ. The whole of the Scriptures are about spiritual things not physical things.

(Joh 5:39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

If you are letting your time be led by the entertainments and amusements of the world, there is no way you are being holy because you are being friendly to the world and friendship with the world is enmity with God.

Worldliness VS Holiness is simple. Dissertations on the doctrine of sanctification which show no contrast between worldliness and holiness are misleading. If you are not experiencing separation from the world caused by the Holy Spirit, which compels you to lose your life for Jesus and His gospel and live as He is your life, something is wrong. Dissertations on the doctrine of sanctification or of holiness which excuse passiveness in how we spend our time are heretical.

You cannot be holy if you are not being obedient in willfully losing your life for Jesus's sake and for His gospel.
If you are being slack in giving your life to Jesus and His gospel, you are not being holy and this goes for me as well as for anybody.

 

[twin1954]

If you are letting your time be led by the entertainments and amusements of the world, there is no way you are being holy because you are being friendly to the world and friendship with the world is enmity with God.

Worldliness VS Holiness is simple. Dissertations on the doctrine of sanctification which show no contrast between worldliness and holiness are misleading. If you are not experiencing separation from the world caused by the Holy Spirit, which compels you to lose your life for Jesus and His gospel and live as He is your life, something is wrong. Dissertations on the doctrine of sanctification or of holiness which excuse passiveness in how we spend our time are heretical.

You cannot be holy if you are not being obedient in willfully losing your life for Jesus's sake and for His gospel.
If you are being slack in giving your life to Jesus and His gospel, you are not being holy and this goes for me as well as for anybody.

I see that you ignored the Scriptures that I posted. OH Well. I can only point you to them I can't make you understand or believe them.

As to the two passages that you have mentioned a couple of times in this and other threads: lose your life and take up your cross I have not too long ago expounded both of those passages and it is obvious you take them in the natural sense. Therefore you do not understand what is meant by either one of them. To lose your life is to quit trying to gain life by what you do. It has nothing to do with obedience. Obedience to Christ isn't a strict and austere life where you give up things and make yourself feel good for doing it but one of faith in Him alone. Religious people can live a "holy" life and not know Christ or be united to Him by faith. All that is is a reformation and self discipline. It has no spiritual value.

To lose your life for Christ is to rest in Him completely understanding that He is enough for God to love, accept and bless you. Moreover He is enough for you as well. Paul declares that we are complete in Him. Col.2:10 Being complete means that you lack nothing. You lose your life of obedience seeking the favor of God and Christ becomes your life. Gal. 1:20-21

Taking up your cross is probably one of the most misunderstood passages in the Bible. The religious world teaches that it means to suffer and toil. Religion makes the slightest hardship a cross we must bear but it takes away the very meaning of the cross. If you will actually think about what a cross is you will find something much deeper and more spiritual in it.
1. A cross is a place of shame.
2. A cross is a place of unimaginable agony.
3. A cross is a place of vengeance.
4. A cross is a place of death.
5. A cross is a place of a curse.


The Lord Jesus Christ bore the cross in the place all His elect and accomplished by suffering all that the cross is a perfect and full redemption for His people.

Taking up your cross is to, by faith, die with Him under the very wrath of God on the cursed cross. We take up our cross when we look to His life and death in our place as all our hope of anything from God. We do not look to the cross for salvation and then to ourselves for earned blessings. We do not look to the cross for salvation and then to ourselves for earned favor. We just look to the One Who died on that cross and believe in His glorious person and work for us and in us. That is what it means to rest in Christ. To take up our cross is to rest in Christ.

Sorry that was the short version. I may put the whole message up on my sermon page at sermonaudio. Perhaps later tonight.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I see that you ignored the Scriptures that I posted. OH Well. I can only point you to them I can't make you understand or believe them.

As to the two passages that you have mentioned a couple of times in this and other threads: lose your life and take up your cross I have not too long ago expounded both of those passages and it is obvious you take them in the natural sense. Therefore you do not understand what is meant by either one of them. To lose your life is to quit trying to gain life by what you do. It has nothing to do with obedience. Obedience to Christ isn't a strict and austere life where you give up things and make yourself feel good for doing it but one of faith in Him alone. Religious people can live a "holy" life and not know Christ or be united to Him by faith. All that is is a reformation and self discipline. It has no spiritual value.

To lose your life for Christ is to rest in Him completely understanding that He is enough for God to love, accept and bless you. Moreover He is enough for you as well. Paul declares that we are complete in Him. Col.2:10 Being complete means that you lack nothing. You lose your life of obedience seeking the favor of God and Christ becomes your life. Gal. 1:20-21

Taking up your cross is probably one of the most misunderstood passages in the Bible. The religious world teaches that it means to suffer and toil. Religion makes the slightest hardship a cross we must bear but it takes away the very meaning of the cross. If you will actually think about what a cross is you will find something much deeper and more spiritual in it.
1. A cross is a place of shame.
2. A cross is a place of unimaginable agony.
3. A cross is a place of vengeance.
4. A cross is a place of death.
5. A cross is a place of a curse.


The Lord Jesus Christ bore the cross in the place all His elect and accomplished by suffering all that the cross is a perfect and full redemption for His people.

Taking up your cross is to, by faith, die with Him under the very wrath of God on the cursed cross. We take up our cross when we look to His life and death in our place as all our hope of anything from God. We do not look to the cross for salvation and then to ourselves for earned blessings. We do not look to the cross for salvation and then to ourselves for earned favor. We just look to the One Who died on that cross and believe in His glorious person and work for us and in us. That is what it means to rest in Christ. To take up our cross is to rest in Christ.

Sorry that was the short version. I may put the whole message up on my sermon page at sermonaudio. Perhaps later tonight.

You are ignoring the OP. It is Worldliness VS Holiness.

You are pretty much completely ignoring the OP and it's base reference passage of Exodus 32 supported by 1 Pet 1:13. You can't expect me to give much attention to your long lists of scriptures when you are ignoring the OP.


Maybe you should go start your own thread.

 

[now faith]

Because the Spirit of God always points you to Christ and not yourself.

(Joh 16:13) Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

(Joh 16:14) He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

(Joh 16:15) All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

You can always tell religion from truth by one simple guage: religion is always about things, is this thing sin or that thing, how am I supposed to live, how am I supposed to bring my children up or be a good father or mother. Always things. Truth, that is spiritual truth, is always about Christ: His person, work and people. Truth is centered in the Gospel of Christ and always points you to Him and away from yourself. Every practical teaching of Paul or any of the Apostles for that matter, was centered on the truth of the Gospel and in the context of the Gospel of Christ. The whole of the Scriptures are about spiritual things not physical things.

(Joh 5:39) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Amen Very good point.

There comes a time when we have to ask one simple question:

Who has made the decree of holy or not?

Then we ask a critical question:

Who is declaring what is or is not sin?

Romans: 8. 1. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. 15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. 16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: 17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

If God's not condemning those who are raised with Christ who else can?

It's seems like there are those who assume the Christian is spiritually blind.

It comes back around to :


2 Corinthians: 5. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19. To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 20. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

If you have to work on not sinning and being holy,you may need salvation.