Holiness VS Worldliness

[Bluelion]

The Bible commands us to be holy, God wants His people to be holy. Holiness requires discipline and obedience. Yes we are sinners, but we are still commanded to be holy and not to be friends with the world. I'm not good at quoting chapter and verse like I used to be, but I'm usually pretty good at being close enough to exactly what a verse or passage says so that you can easily look it up and find the chapter and verse reference.

Two of those are:

"Be ye holy, for I am holy.." and
"Be ye perfect for I am perfect".

If you look these up in the KJV, you can find them easily. The exact chapter and verse for the first has been quoted in this thread, as have the other main points of the OP. The point of the thread is that there are things we can do to be holy, and there are things we can do that are unholy and worldly and there is a clear distinction between those things.

The argument, to say it's silly, is to reject the lessons from God's Word in the OP. Moses obeyed God and was disciplined to do what God told Him to do. It took a lot of climbing to get up that mountain, and he did it more than once when God told him to do it.

God did not command us to be holy only to show us how it's impossible. He commanded us to be holy because he wants us to do it. He wants us to be obedient and fully given over to His service. He wants us to be disciplined, to discipline ourselves, to keep us from turning aside from following his commandments and turning back toward the world He called us out of.

I think what your looking for is Jesus said be prefect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

There is nothing a person can do on his own to be perfect and Holy, we are counted Righteous, Perfect and Holy by Faith in Jesus. It is by Faith, not deed, that any man should boast. Paul said that.

So when you say Israel did not keep the law, none of us do. The Jews were not aloud to see the promise land because that generation had no faith in God in spite of all the wonders God did before them. That generation was found lacking not because of deed or worldliness but because they had no Faith.

Your whole OP is off, You are not understanding fully why that Generation was found lacking and judged. it was Faith. The whole Bible is Faith. That is the message friend God has been saying sense time began Faith in God is what is required. Now that is no easy task. But the things we are to do follow Godliness is after Faith, it is a product of Faith. Godliness can not be had with out Faith, Like a chicken can not be born with out the egg coming first. First we have Faith, then we obey and live Godly, by Faith we are counted Righteous and Holy. Its all about Faith friend.

 

[Bluelion]

I think godliness and holiness for us are the same thing, or close enough to the same thing that the words can be used interchangeably. You cannot separate holiness from godliness, you cannot separate godliness from holiness. You can't be unholy and be godly, and you can't be ungodly and be holy.

You can be worldly and ungodly.
You can be worldly and unholy.
You can be unholy and worldly.
You can be ungodly and worldly.


You cannot be godly and unholy.
You cannot be holy and ungodly.
You cannot be ungodly and holy.
You cannot be unholy and godly.

God wants us to be separate from the world. He wants clear lines of separation from the world for His holy name's sake. He wants us to be holy as He is holy. He does not want us to say "nobody is perfect, so I have an excuse when I'm being ungodly or unholy"

That is done by Jesus and we have Faith in Him. It is by Faith in Christ and a work of The Holy Spirit not of any man.

 

[Bluelion]

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[Bluelion]

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[now faith]

Brother you are correct, however, I do not think he meant to judge everyone. I think from the start of the OP it was a misunderstanding. He did not understand that generation in the wilderness was judge because they had no faith not by deed and it is by Faith alone we are counted righteous.

Go easy on him Brother, I feel his zeal for God, but more study on His part is needed. I am not saying you did wrong Brother, other than the poor joke, but I think we have all misunderstood him, and him us.

Peace be with you

Your brother in Christ
blu.

How many people have to be driven out of Church away from God due to accusation without any knowledge of who they accuse,or circumstances beyond the accusers understanding?

Satan is the chief accuser of the saints, I would think it's enough to have him barking at Christians,without others expecting people to do as I say but not as I do.

Romans chapter 2 addresses this issue, and by reading it we can know how The Word of God sees legalism.

Going easy will not bring back the lost,it only reinforces the accusers ideals.

 

[Bluelion]

How many people have to be driven out of Church away from God due to accusation without any knowledge of who they accuse,or circumstances beyond the accusers understanding?

Satan is the chief accuser of the saints, I would think it's enough to have him barking at Christians,without others expecting people to do as I say but not as I do.

Romans chapter 2 addresses this issue, and by reading it we can know how The Word of God sees legalism.

Going easy will not bring back the lost,it only reinforces the accusers ideals.

Children of God should not accuse each other. I must have missed that, you are right. I must not be understanding the issue. Sorry.

 

[Avid]

... Romans chapter 2 addresses this issue, and by reading it we can know how The Word of God sees legalism...

Romans 2 addresses people pronouncing judgment upon others for doing the same things they do. If what we hear from too many who call themselves Christians were actually TRUE, it would mean this would include the Apostle who wrote this letter, and any preacher who preaches against sin.

It is NOT true of someone who is NOT doing the same things as he preaches against. Here is why the world thinks this is hypocritical, and why they reject it outright. I am not talking about people thinking they can be justified before the LORD, but that, IF they are indeed justified before the LORD, they would not be doing the same things! It is behavior that has been changed that we are discussing. NOT a way to make God consider us worthy of His salvation.

If all we hear were true, then the ONE time a preacher preached the SHORTEST sermon, and the GREATEST NUMBER of people responded, would not be possible. However, the scriptures say that Jonah walked halfway through Nineveh, preached a sermon of about 8 words, walked out of the city, and ALL of the people there were spared certain destruction when they repented. This does not mean ALL went to paradise at their eventual death, but that they were spared (saved) from a determined destruction from God.

If preachers cannot preach against bad behavior as examples of the sinful nature of man, NONE of us, or anyone else, would find salvation, because they would not be shown it is THEY, themselves, that need to repent.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

I think what your looking for is Jesus said be prefect as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

There is nothing a person can do on his own to be perfect and Holy, we are counted Righteous, Perfect and Holy by Faith in Jesus. It is by Faith, not deed, that any man should boast. Paul said that.

So when you say Israel did not keep the law, none of us do. The Jews were not aloud to see the promise land because that generation had no faith in God in spite of all the wonders God did before them. That generation was found lacking not because of deed or worldliness but because they had no Faith.

Your whole OP is off, You are not understanding fully why that Generation was found lacking and judged. it was Faith. The whole Bible is Faith. That is the message friend God has been saying sense time began Faith in God is what is required. Now that is no easy task. But the things we are to do follow Godliness is after Faith, it is a product of Faith. Godliness can not be had with out Faith, Like a chicken can not be born with out the egg coming first. First we have Faith, then we obey and live Godly, by Faith we are counted Righteous and Holy. Its all about Faith friend.

Your whole objection is off. You say there is nothing we can do to be godly, then you say the things we are to do follow faith. Do we do things that follow faith or do we not? It seems to be you are tying you use double talk only to ignore the whole biblical doctrine of holiness which requires obedience in faith. Are you trying to say it's ok for you to act like the Israelites did when they danced and sang and disrobed as long as you are counted Righteous and Holy by Faith, all of those words improperly capitlalized? Is it holy to improperly capitalize those words? Or is it considered Righteous and Holy because you have Faith which negates rules of grammar?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Children of God should not accuse each other. I must have missed that, you are right. I must not be understanding the issue. Sorry.

If children of God are acting unholy, how do you know they are children of God?

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Children of God should not accuse each other. I must have missed that, you are right. I must not be understanding the issue. Sorry.

You are ignoring the OP.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

How come people who are opposed to the OP talk about anything but the OP?

The contrast between the holiness in the life of Moses and the worldliness in the behavior of the children of Israel is obvious and clear. Opposing voices here are trying to ignore that fact for some reason and I have to wonder if it's because of personal preference of worldly pleasures similar to those indulged in by the rebellious children of Israel. I hope that is not the case, I believe all opponents to this thread are seriously serving the Lord in preparation for His appearing, giving their lives for His sake and His gospel. I don't know why people think striving for personal holiness being set apart from the world to serve the One who bought is with His blood is a bad thing. It was good enough for Moses, it's good enough for me. I only wish I were as good at being holy as Moses was. There is no excuse for me not to be. If others want to make excuses for unholiness, I'm sorry to hear that. I prefer to believe you all are living holy and consecrated lives for our Savior.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

That is done by Jesus and we have Faith in Him. It is by Faith in Christ and a work of The Holy Spirit not of any man.

2 Peter 1:13-16


Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Being holy is not something that happens automatically. It require obedience. In the above passage, we are exhorted to "gird up the loins of our mind". This requires active effort, controlling our thoughts and imaginations to keep them in tune with God's leading. We are exhorted to "be sober". This implies that we are to be actively serious about being holy. "Hope to the end" implies that we are to be focused on our hope of when we will be with Jesus forever. "As obedient children" implies that if we are not doing these things, we are being disobedient. "Not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts" implies that we can "fashion ourselves" like the world in our former lusts which were like the world, unholy. "..as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation, because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy". "In all manner of conversation" means in everything we do, say, and think. God wants us to be obedient to Him every moment of the day and there is no excuse for any moment of disobedience. Sin is never excusable and God never wants us to make excuses for our own sin or for anybody else's.


You are the man responsible for your own personal holiness. If you want to slide through the mud of the world while you are saved, if you really are saved, you can do that and still go to heaven but if I see you doing worldly things in worldly ways I'll have to wonder if you really are saved and I'm not going to want to be passing time with you as if the Lord doesn't care how we spend our time.

The fact that we are sinners and cannot perform perfectly is not an excuse for not trying. We can do the things God through Peter in the above passage tells us to do. To say "nah, that's too hard" is just plain lazy

 

[twin1954]

Holiness is destroyed when man thinks he can achieve it. The only holiness a believer has or ever will have is Christ in you the hope of glory.

Just as the law is lowered in order to call our meager and flawed efforts righteousness holiness is lowered in order to deceive ourselves into thinking we can achieve it.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Holiness is destroyed when man thinks he can achieve it. The only holiness a believer has or ever will have is Christ in you the hope of glory.

Just as the law is lowered in order to call our meager and flawed efforts righteousness holiness is lowered in order to deceive ourselves into thinking we can achieve it.

Does this mean that the scripture passage in Post 191 and the clear implications discussed in that post are irrelevant and ungodly?

Are you trying to say we are supposed to not care what Peter is telling us to do in the passage referred to in Post 191? Why do you think Peter told us to do those things? Does it make us bad Christians if we say we are trying to do the things mentioned in the passage, or if we say that other Christians should try to do those things? Why did Peter say we should try to do those things? Please explain, help me to understand the correct application of the passage from 2 Peter Chapter One.

Please quote the passage and explain it. Please don't try to explain it without quoting it. Please explain for me what Peter is saying in 1 Peter 1:13-16, and why is he saying it? Why does he say "pass the time of your sojourning here in fear" in verse 17?

Was Peter a bad Christian for telling us to do the things he told us to do in 1 Peter 1:13-17? Was Peter a hypocrite for telling us to do something he was not doing? Is it possible for us to do what Peter was saying we should do? If it's not possible for us to do what Peter was saying we should do, why did he tell us to do it? Did he only want to make us feel bad?

 

[twin1954]

Does this mean that the scripture passage in Post 191 and the clear implications discussed in that post are irrelevant and ungodly?

Of course there is nothing wrong with seeking to consecrate yourself to the Lord. But to imagine that it is holiness, especially that holiness without which no man shall see the Lord, is a delusion. We look to Christ alone for all that God requires of us. He is all in all to the believer.

What I am seeing though in this thread is akin to monasticism. You may be able to fence the world out but the world will follow you because it is still in your heart. Outward acts mean nothing. Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart.

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Of course there is nothing wrong with seeking to consecrate yourself to the Lord. But to imagine that it is holiness, especially that holiness without which no man shall see the Lord, is a delusion. We look to Christ alone for all that God requires of us. He is all in all to the believer.

What I am seeing though in this thread is akin to monasticism. You may be able to fence the world out but the world will follow you because it is still in your heart. Outward acts mean nothing. Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart.

Please answer my questions in post 194 related to post 192 so you can help me to understand 1 Peter 1:13-17

I can't seem to get anybody to talk about the passage from Exodus in the OP, maybe you can explain 1 Peter 1:13-17 for me. Please focus on the passage in 1 Peter 1:13 -17 now. Please quote the passage, phrase by phrase, and give me your comments as to what it is saying. I'll post the passage again for you to help you keep your comments focused on the passage, especially the part that commands "be ye holy".

Here it is: 1st Peter chapter 1:13-17

13Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; 14As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: 15But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; 16Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

17And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

 

[SaintJoeNow]

Of course there is nothing wrong with seeking to consecrate yourself to the Lord. But to imagine that it is holiness, especially that holiness without which no man shall see the Lord, is a delusion. We look to Christ alone for all that God requires of us. He is all in all to the believer.

What I am seeing though in this thread is akin to monasticism. You may be able to fence the world out but the world will follow you because it is still in your heart. Outward acts mean nothing. Man looks on the outward appearance but God looks on the heart.

"Outward acts mean nothing." I'm quoting you here, I don't find anything like this anywhere in the Bible. Are you sure you want to be saying this? It seems to imply that if I am in a bar, flirting and dancing with women while I sip a beer, the outward act means nothing. Isn't "the outward act" what God was angry over with the children of Israel when they made a golden calf and threw a party? Are you sure you want to say "Outward act means nothing"?
Maybe you would like to rethink that and say it in a different way so as not to give people the wrong impression, or do you really mean the "Outward act means nothing"? I thought God cared about our "Outward act". Was I wrong?

 

[twin1954]

"Outward acts mean nothing." I'm quoting you here, I don't find anything like this anywhere in the Bible. Are you sure you want to be saying this? It seems to imply that if I am in a bar, flirting and dancing with women while I sip a beer, the outward act means nothing. Isn't "the outward act" what God was angry over with the children of Israel when they made a golden calf and threw a party? Are you sure you want to say "Outward act means nothing"?
Maybe you would like to rethink that and say it in a different way so as not to give people the wrong impression, or do you really mean the "Outward act means nothing"? I thought God cared about our "Outward act". Was I wrong?

(Mat 15:7) Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

(Mat 15:8) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

(Mat 15:9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

(Mat 15:10) And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand:

(Mat 15:11) Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man.

(Mat 15:12) Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying?

(Mat 15:13) But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.

(Mat 15:14) Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

(Mat 15:15) Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.

(Mat 15:16) And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?

(Mat 15:17) Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

(Mat 15:18) But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.

(Mat 15:19) For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

(Mat 15:20) These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.


What is it that you think the Lord is teaching here?

 

[twin1954]

It seems to imply that if I am in a bar, flirting and dancing with women while I sip a beer, the outward act means nothing.

If you are acting like an unbeliever it probably means that you are one. Believers act like sheep because that is their nature. Sure we fall and fail daily and are constantly battling our old man but we are not ruled by sin as we once were.

 

[twin1954]

Isn't "the outward act" what God was angry over with the children of Israel when they made a golden calf and threw a party?

The outward act was a fruit of their hearts. The outward act was not the problem it was their hearts.

The same can be said of those who were so strict to keep the law and traditions but their hearts were far from God.

(Mat 15:7) Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,

(Mat 15:8) This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

(Mat 15:9) But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.