Holidays

[DarylFawcett]

ECR,

I noticed you never responded to my post #102

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

If the observance of Christmas in our churches was such a terribel and sinful thing to do, don't you think God would have conveyed such to Ellen White, especially after what she had written, such as the following?

I had already responded in another post to the same subject but I will repost my thoughts, plus a few others, as I know you are SDA.

I recognize that sister White did not see a problem with celebrating Christmas and no, I do not think God would have necessarily given her light on this subject. Just as Luther was not given certain light that was important to the church but not for his time. I believe there will be additional light given to God's people in these end times. The understanding of the seventh trumpet/third woe is one of these truths to be revealed for our time...

The Bible gave enough evidence of the warnings given about customs and traditions for me to look into this celebration further. In the course of my study into the 25th of Dec and everything that goes with it, I am convinced that it is not glorifying to God. The very words that people greet each other with, merry Christmas, is a practice sanctioned by and instituted by the Catholic church. I won't post up the article on the history of Christ-mass but you can do a quick Google search if you wish. Suffice it to say that this mass of Christ is centered around His death, not birth, and that it involves transubstantiation, a practice that is neither Biblical nor honourable to Christ.

Sister white also said nothing against Santa Claus and how many Adventists are exposing their childern to satan through this psuedo diety? Why would she not warn parents against this? Children are most precious to God. Again, I say that she was not the expositor of all truth.

I have also stated my belief in the danger of mixing the Holy with the profane and I have since seen it's affects on our church. The cancelling of Sabbath school and service because it's the 25th of Dec. is wrong and does not glorify God.

The practice of cutting the evergreen and putting it in the church is against Jer 10:2-4, imo. The intention may be different but the practice is still that of the heathens. What did God do to the Israelites for doing the same with the feast to the Lord using their heathen ways? He wasn't pleased in the slightest. What makes you think He would be now?

Thats the way I've been led to see it and I was trying to sound an alarm for what I seen as dangers for the Christian. I have made my points and what anyone does with them is up to them....

 

[Byfaithalone1]

The Bible gave enough evidence of the warnings given about customs and traditions for me to look into this celebration further.

This is something I'd like to study further. Can you share the Biblical warnings that you've found?

BFA

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

No BFA, I'm not playing this game with you... you innocently ask me something you already know about so you can refute me with you counter arguments. I've already stated my case as clearly as I can and have provided scripture..

You are knowledgable enough to know the warnings against vain traditions and doing as the heathen do... if not here's a link to a good resource tool
www.biblegateway.com

 

[Byfaithalone1]

No BFA, I'm not playing this game with you... you innocently ask me something you already know about so you can refute me with you counter arguments. I've already stated my case as clearly as I can and have provided scripture..

You are knowledgable enough to know the warnings against vain traditions and doing as the heathen do... if not here's a link to a good resource tool
www.biblegateway.com

I'm well aware of passages indicating that we should not judge one another based on our observances of days, but I've yet to find any Scriptures that provide warnings about customs and traditions. In the absence of any clear support for such an idea, I'm inclined to assume that there aren't any such warnings in Scripture. I sincerely have not been able to find them.

BFA

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I'm well aware of passages indicating that we should not judge one another based on our observances of days, but I've yet to find any Scriptures that provide warnings about customs and traditions. In the absence of any clear support for such an idea, I'm inclined to assume that there aren't any such warnings in Scripture. I sincerely have not been able to find them.

BFA

There ya go...

 

[Byfaithalone1]

There ya go...

I don't follow. Are you saying there aren't any Scriptures that provide warnings about customs and traditions?

BFA

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

I don't follow. Are you saying there aren't any Scriptures that provide warnings about customs and traditions?

BFA

Be a Berean....

 

[DarylFawcett]

My response is that we will need to see what EGW had to say about it, therefore, when I have more time, I hope to do that, which may take some time, and then share it here.

I had already responded in another post to the same subject but I will repost my thoughts, plus a few others, as I know you are SDA.

I recognize that sister White did not see a problem with celebrating Christmas and no, I do not think God would have necessarily given her light on this subject. Just as Luther was not given certain light that was important to the church but not for his time. I believe there will be additional light given to God's people in these end times. The understanding of the seventh trumpet/third woe is one of these truths to be revealed for our time...

The Bible gave enough evidence of the warnings given about customs and traditions for me to look into this celebration further. In the course of my study into the 25th of Dec and everything that goes with it, I am convinced that it is not glorifying to God. The very words that people greet each other with, merry Christmas, is a practice sanctioned by and instituted by the Catholic church. I won't post up the article on the history of Christ-mass but you can do a quick Google search if you wish. Suffice it to say that this mass of Christ is centered around His death, not birth, and that it involves transubstantiation, a practice that is neither Biblical nor honourable to Christ.

Sister white also said nothing against Santa Claus and how many Adventists are exposing their childern to satan through this psuedo diety? Why would she not warn parents against this? Children are most precious to God. Again, I say that she was not the expositor of all truth.

I have also stated my belief in the danger of mixing the Holy with the profane and I have since seen it's affects on our church. The cancelling of Sabbath school and service because it's the 25th of Dec. is wrong and does not glorify God.

The practice of cutting the evergreen and putting it in the church is against Jer 10:2-4, imo. The intention may be different but the practice is still that of the heathens. What did God do to the Israelites for doing the same with the feast to the Lord using their heathen ways? He wasn't pleased in the slightest. What makes you think He would be now?

Thats the way I've been led to see it and I was trying to sound an alarm for what I seen as dangers for the Christian. I have made my points and what anyone does with them is up to them....

 

[DarylFawcett]

As far as customs and traditions go, as long as they don't go against the revealed will of God, I don't see any problem with them.

 

[DarylFawcett]

Further to my last post, here is one Bible verse that comes to mind:

Mat 15:3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

 

[stinsonmarri]

Greetings to all:​

I have weighed in on many of the comments and one person stands out about where are the Scriptures for Yashua's birth actually there are none at all! There are no Scriptures giving the day of His birth because simply He never asked us to celebrate this day at all! What was give were Scriptures to celebrate His death and resurrection and there are plenty of them. Then I read about EGW and the tree in the Church and giving children gifts during this unholy yes unholy season! I also read once again two other things that makes things even worst that EGW was a prophet and about us being the remnant. So if you all would permit me I will respond to all of these comments.
First, let's start with EGW she was not a prophet or prophetess but a messenger. Did she have a gift yes she did but is was the gift given to more than her. This gift is continual and will be used in the last days as well.

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith Elohim, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: Act 2:16-18

We forget about the other such as Hiram Edison who saw the Heavenly Sanctuary and begin to prophesy what he saw and understood. EGW also had the same gift and another gift like Paul to deal with problems in the early Adventist church. Prophesying is building up what is already written in the Bible and understanding it. Paul was not a prophet he was an Apostle also Peter and James plus they were disciples. But John was a disciple, an Apostle and a Prophet because He was given what was not already written or known. A prophet is a seer or a person who is given a vision of something that has never been revealed before. Even a prophet does not always understand what he is given but to prophesy is totally different you understand what you were given totally. Now there are some prophets in the Bible that were also messengers like EGW one is Nathan who rebuke David personally for the act of adultery and murder. Samuel was a messenger, judge and a prophet also and there were more who had many other roles. When Sister White had a vision and she when she revealed her visions she understood them and explain them exactly. When Daniel had his visions they were not revealed before he did not understand them just wrote what he saw. Finally, there is only One Spirit of Prophesy and that is Yashua. Rev 19:10

The question that was asked was about the season so it includes Christmas and New Years and the both are unholy. No the Bible does not give the exact date of His birth but it does give the time of the year. Before I give you Scriptures let's think about this time for a moment if you please. Springtime is the beginning of life and wintertime is death and it's like a person's life. You are born up to your teens like spring, your young adult to reach complete adulthood that would be summer, then you begin to age and wisdom appears that would be fall and finally you have aged with grey until death which is winter. Sensibly what time of the year do you think Yashua would be born? Now let's see if the Bible backs us up but first we must deal with the New Year. The Bible does provide when the year should start:

And Yahweh spake unto Moses and Aaron in the land of Egypt, saying, This month shall be unto you the beginning of months: it shall be the first month of the year to you. Ex 12:1, 2

Then Yahweh even gave the name of the month for the beginning of the year and it is the only month He named!

Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto Yahweh thy Elohim: for in the month of Abib Yahweh thy Elohim brought thee forth out of Egypt by night. Deut 16:1

Now I see nothing sacrificial in those words instead I see and hear a command that cannot be altered. The problem is we do not understand certain requirements given from the beginning that also were laws.

And Elohim said, “Let lights come to be in the expanse of the heavens to separate the day from the night, and let them be for signs and appointed times, and for days and years, Gen 1:14 (Scripture 1998+)

Then Elohim commanded, "Let lights appear in the sky to separate day from night and to show the time when days, years, and religious festivals begin; Gen 1:14 (Good News Bible)

Elohim said, "I command lights to appear in the sky and to separate day from night and to show the time for seasons, special days, and years. Gen 1:14 (Contemporary English Version)

As you can see above that Yahweh gave both the sun and the moon (called also month) to tell the time or was to be use together for our calendar. Matter of fact our Church originated on both in order for us to have understood the Investigated Judgment. Miller had to learn that both the moon and the sun was used to calculate Yahweh's true year. This is called a lunarsolar calendar and we are off in time because 2012 starts between March and April of this year!
So you see it is wrong to even celebrate January as the New Year to do this is rejecting outwardly another of His commandments. We now see that Yahweh had put in place the Feast Days even before He made Adam and Eve! Yahweh always had a plan for all of His created sons of all the worlds to present themselves before Him.

And the day came to be that the sons of Elohim came to present themselves before Yahweh and Satan also came among them. Job 1:6 (The Scriptures 1998+)

Now those who are Adventist I hope that you know that these beings were not angels as others believe and Satan only came before the gate. Satan was kicked out never again allowed within Heaven because of his sinful nature. Yes he tried to sneak in like people here who do the same thing where they are not invited. The Bible never said that Satan ruled the earth but was the prince and power over only the air. We can discuss this at another time where the Bible states where Satan's kingdom is located. The point is that all the other holy sons of Elohim observed His special meeting days. So if Yahweh have special days it should not take us hard to learn that Satan is a copy cat. Sunday for Sabbath and Yahweh's Feast Days given that are statues laws and the Sabbath is the very first one but Satan has his unholy feast days too. Christmas, New Year, Easter, Valentine and Halloween are Satan set times or appointed times ask the Catholic Church who brought them under Christanity! Bravo on the quote by Isa 66:22 it serve that statues laws or the Feast Days will be kept in Heaven! (See also Psa 81:3 and Isa 8:20)
Here is the problem with us we follow our leaders more than the Bible! The Israelites did the same thing also.

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mat 15:9

Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? Col 2:22

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 1Ti 4:1

Read Eze 22:8, 25-28

Earlier I express that the birthday of the Messiah was never given but the time or what we call season was provided.

And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night. And when he was twelve years old, they went up to Jerusalem after the custom of the feast. Luke 2: 8, 42

Keeping watch - by night - Or, as in the margin, keeping the watches of the night, i.e. each one keeping a watch (which ordinarily consisted of three hours) in his turn. The reason why they watched them in the field appears to have been, either to preserve the sheep from beasts of prey, such as wolves, foxes, etc., or from freebooting banditti, with which all the land of Judea was at that time much infested. It was a custom among the Jews to send out their sheep to the deserts, about the passover, and bring them home at the commencement of the first rain: Clarke's Commentary on the Bible

"According to a Roman almanac, the Christian festival of Christmas was celebrated in Rome by AD 336. In the eastern part of the Roman Empire, however, a festival on January 6 commemorated the manifestation of God in both the birth and the baptism of Jesus, except in Jerusalem, where only the birth was celebrated. During the 4th century the celebration of Christ's birth on December 25 was gradually adopted by most Eastern churches. In Jerusalem, opposition to Christmas lasted longer, but it was subsequently accepted. In the Armenian Church, a Christmas on December 25 was never accepted; Christ's birth is celebrated on January 6. After Christmas was established in the East, the baptism of Jesus was celebrated on Epiphany, January 6. In the West, however, Epiphany was the day on which the visit of the Magi to the infant Jesus was celebrated.
The reason why Christmas came to be celebrated on December 25 remains uncertain, but most probably the reason is that early Christians wished the date to coincide with the pagan Roman festival marking the? Birthday of the unconquered sun? (natalis solis invicti); this festival celebrated the winter solstice, when the days again begin to lengthen and the sun begins to climb higher in the sky. The traditional customs connected with Christmas have accordingly developed from several sources as a result of the coincidence of the celebration of the birth of Christ with the pagan agricultural and solar observances at midwinter. In the Roman world the Saturnalia (December 17) was a time of merrymaking and exchange of gifts.
December 25 was also regarded as the birth date of the Iranian mystery god Mithra, the Sun of Righteousness. On the Roman New Year (January 1), houses were decorated with greenery and lights, and gifts were given to children and the poor. To these observances were added the German and Celtic Yule rites when the Teutonic tribes penetrated into Gaul, Britain, and central Europe. Food and good fellowship, the Yule log and Yule cakes, greenery and fir trees, and gifts and greetings all commemorated different aspects of this festive season. Fires and lights, symbols of warmth and lasting life, have always been associated with the winter festival, both pagan and Christian. Since the European Middle Ages, evergreens, as symbols of survival, have been associated with Christmas. Christmas is traditionally regarded as the festival of the family and of children, under the name of whose patron, Saint Nicholas (q.v.), or Santa Claus, presents are exchanged in many countries."The Encyclopedia Britannica CD Rom Edition 2003

In my conclusion the Bible makes it clear not to follow the example of the heathen nations and their rituals.

Hear ye the word which Yahweh speaketh unto you, O house of Israel: Thus saith Yahweh, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good. Jer 10:1-5

Now the question is to all who is right EGW or the Bible? Did she understood that an evergreen tree would lead to how we as Adventist today go all out with the tree? Of course not she came out of one of the traditional religions and she thought as they all did at that time that the Savior was born in December. But knowledge has increase and we know the truth today in so many things but we too as new members have come into the church we have given over to majority rule. Paul saw the same problem in his day with the Greeks who were taking over and he stated:

For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 2Th 2:7

I urge you all to study about Yahweh's Feast days and that all nations had feast days that we call holidays. This word means holy days and it behooves you to study ancient people and their religious customs. You will notice that all of these pagan customs, names and more have moved into the Protestant churches and now the SDA church. This shows clearly that we are not the remnant church but people from all churches who keep the testimony of Yashua and Yahweh's commandments will make up the remnant.

Blessings to all and happy Sabbath,

stinsonmarri

 

[Princessdi]

Why do you believe that the Creator would only want "scripted" adoration from those whom He gave free will and such creativity? w3hat was the point if not to chose to used it all in service, praise, worship and adoration to Him?

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Why do you believe that the Creator would only want "scripted" adoration from those whom He gave free will and such creativity? w3hat was the point if not to chose to used it all in service, praise, worship and adoration to Him?

So, you're saying we should be able to worship God as we see fit?

 

[Byfaithalone1]

Why do you believe that the Creator would only want "scripted" adoration from those whom He gave free will and such creativity? w3hat was the point if not to chose to used it all in service, praise, worship and adoration to Him?

Well said, Princess. And, if I've understood your post correctly, it seems as though you're saying that we provide to God the unique expression of worship that He created us to provide (and not worship "as we see fit").

Some have concluded that -- because God never changes -- He has a black-and-white, cookie cutter approach to interacting with His children. This isn't my view. Rather, I see the wisdom in your train of thought and I conclude that God approaches His children individually, according to the unique persons He created them to be.

Thanks for the thought provoking post.

BFA

 

[stinsonmarri]

Why do you believe that the Creator would only want "scripted" adoration from those whom He gave free will and such creativity? w3hat was the point if not to chose to used it all in service, praise, worship and adoration to Him?

Greetings Princess:

To answer your question because Yahweh does instruct us how to worship Him. The same principles apply with raising your children as to what you require of them and that is to obey what you are teaching them. Why is it so hard to do what He ask and not what we want? King Saul made that same excuse when he was told to kill and to destroy everything. Saul concluded why kill the animals we could put them to good use for Yahweh's sacrifices! Samuel rebuked and told him that Yahweh wanted Saul to obey than to give Him sacrifices! Same problem with Satan he wanted worship the way he wanted and not the way Yahweh wanted Satan to worship. That is why the Bible says that there is a way that seems right but the way will lead to sudden destruction.
I was talking to a pastor's wife early this morning who both is good friends of mine. Her same reasoning was well they worshipping or recognizing the birth of the Messiah. She said even though it is not the correct day we as Adventist should give honor to His birth. I told her if He wanted us to know His birth He would have supplied it so we would not be discussing this matter now. I even read her Scriptures but you see and believe what you want to believe because you like what you are doing. We become upset with something we know is correct in the Bible but others can't see or refuse to anyways. SDA has conformed as did the Protestants of EGW day. People leave churches because they change from where they once stood that was correct or won't change the errors that were incorrect it goes both ways.
My humble advice to all is to pray and ask Yahweh what He wants and listen to the voice of the Holy Spirit. It may not be what you want to hear but if you want to be in harmony with the Father by the Son through the power of the Holy Spirit- Obey and live-disobey and die!

Blessings to you all,

stinsonmarri

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Amen Marrion, well put...

 

[Byfaithalone1]

To answer your question because Yahweh does instruct us how to worship Him.

Can you point me to the instructions God gave to Gentiles regarding the way in which they are to worship Him? In connection with another discussion in this forum, I've been searching the Scriptures for such instructions but I'm not finding much. I would sincerely appreciate more information on this topic.


BFA

 

[EastCoastRemnant]

Can you point me to the instructions God gave to Gentiles regarding the way in which they are to worship Him? In connection with another discussion in this forum, I've been searching the Scriptures for such instructions but I'm not finding much. I would sincerely appreciate more information on this topic.


BFA

We are all God's created possession, are we not? What is the meaning of 1 Cor 10:11,12 if not showing us what was for God's people in OT times was also for NT Christians as well. Why do people have to seperate God's one creation into us and them?? Does the Word not say that there is neither Jew nor gentile? That because we are all the same, our DNA is the same, we all descended from the same parents.

If the OT is only for the instruction of the Jewish nation, then why do we even read it?? God has always demanded Worship the same from all His creation, from the angels in Heaven to Adam and Eve to the antidiluvians to the Israelites to the gentiles. It's the same premise for observing the clean vs unlean foods. We are not made any different physiologically than the Jews, why would our bodies be immune to the warnings of the unclean foods?

 

[Princessdi]

Agreed BFA. Salvation is not a corporate event., It is individual. Because our walk, our testimonies are different, our praise and worship will be the same. God has been something different to each one of us and our praise will come out of that redemption, reconciliation, and restoration. So no, ECR, it is not how we see fit, but the praise adn worship that comes out of our individual relaiotnship with God. You can't dictate that for me, and I can't dictate for you. As the song says, "you don't know the cost of the oil in "my" alabaster box." Just so you will have a frame of reference

ALABASTER BOX
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The room grew still[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As she made her way to Jesus[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]She stumbled through the tears that made her blind[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]She felt such pain[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Some spoke in anger[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Heard folks whisper[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There's no place here for her kind[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Still on she came[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Through the shame that flushed her face[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Until at last, she knelt before his feet[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And though she spoke no words[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Every tear she she shed was heard[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]As she poured her love for the Master[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]From her box of Alabaster[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Chorus:[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And I've come to pour[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]My praise on Him-like oil[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]From Mary's alabaster box[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Don't be angry if I wash His feet with my tears[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And dry them with my hair[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You weren't there-the night He found me[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]You did not feel what I felt [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When He wrapped His loving arms around me[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And you don't know the cost[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Of the oil in my alabaster box[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I can't forget[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The way life used to be[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I was a prisoner[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]To the sins that had me bound[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I spent my days[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Poured my life-without measure[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Into a little treasure box[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I thought I had found[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Until the day-when Jesus came to me[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And healed my soul[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]With the wonders of-His love[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]So now I'm giving back to Him[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]All the praise He's worthy of[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I've been forgiven[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]And that's why[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I love Him so much[/FONT]

Stinsonmarri and ECR, there is another problem with your reasoning here. There are ALL kinds of praise and worship given to God in the Bible, some that neither of you would condone, but the Bible being an ancient(but still the living Word of God) text, God has already condoned those forms of worship. The only form of worship God does not accept is that which comes form an insincere, proud heart. This was further demonstrated by Jesus pointing out the examples in the temple of the publican and the widow.

So while you two(and others) are focusing, once again, on the outward appearance, God is looking on the heart.