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DarylFawcett

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T&B,

Thank you for this interesting part of your post:
 
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zeker33:9

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I found this to be an interesting read from EGW.

On Christmas, so soon to come, let not the parents take the position that an evergreen placed in the church for the amusement of the Sabbath school scholars is a sin; for it may be made a great blessing. Keep before their minds benevolent objects. In no case should mere amusement be the object of these gatherings. While there may be some who will turn these occasions into seasons of careless levity, and whose minds will not receive the divine impress, to other minds and characters these seasons will be highly beneficial. I am fully satisfied that innocent substitutes can be devised for many gatherings that demoralize.

Christmas is coming. May you all have wisdom to make it a precious season. Let the older church members unite, heart and soul, with their children in their innocent amusement and recreation, in devising ways and means to show true respect to Jesus by bringing to Him gifts and offerings. Let everyone remember the claims of God. His cause cannot go forward without your aid. Let the gifts you have usually bestowed upon one another be placed in the Lord's treasury. . . . In every church let your smaller offerings be placed upon your Christmas tree. Let the precious emblem "evergreen" suggest the holy work of God and His beneficence to us; and the loving heart-work will be to save other souls who are in darkness. Let your works be in accordance with your faith. . . .

Every tree in Satan's garden hangs laden with the fruits of vanity, pride, self-importance, evil desire, extravagance--all poisoned fruit, but very gratifying to the carnal heart. Let the several churches present to God Christmas trees in every church, and then let them hang thereon the fruits of beneficence and gratitude--offerings coming from willing hearts and hands, fruits that God will accept as an expression of our faith and our great love to Him for the gift of His Son, Jesus Christ. Let the evergreen be laden with fruit, rich and pure and holy, acceptable to God. Shall we not have such a Christmas as Heaven can approve?

What are your thoughts?
 
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zeker33:9

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But you are still saying that the Bible is corrupt and we can't trust it. It's either God's Word or it's man's words. Which is it?

Enough truth is not the entire truth. That would leave the Bible "open to" interpretation, and that's not the case. Only if it's the entire truth is it God's Word.

God gave us examples of paganism in the Bible, He gave us examples of legalism and hypocrisy with the Pharisees, He's given us all the examples we need in His Word. His Will in contrast to pagan belief. The Israelites didn't waste anytime with the golden calf, Jezebel and her reign as the prophetess of Baal. It's all in there. We don't have to look any further than His Word.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Enough truth is not the entire truth. That would leave the Bible "open to" interpretation, and that's not the case. Only if it's the entire truth is it God's Word.

If the Bible is not open to interpretation we wouldn't be on a forum that hosts various denominational groups.

It's through the Holy Spirit that we gain an understanding of the truth of Gods Word. Thats why the Bible is not for private interpretation...
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Two things about sister White's comments on Christmas stand out to me...

One is that she states that she is satisfied that innocent substitutes can be devised. This is not, to me, a thus sayeth the Lord, statement. While it has always been based around pagan holidays, the level to which it was celebrated in her day was probably far less than today.

Secondly, I do not believe that sister White was given light on every subject. The studies I have done on the meaning behind the words 'Merry Christmas' to the satanic symbolism of santa claus has led me to denounce the holiday as not only not Biblical, but to be dangerous to Christians by the obserbance of tradition. As for the tree, there is a passage in Jer 10:2-4 that calls the practice heathenism and warns against it. While God does not call it an abomination, He does call it a vain custom.

In my mind why give any due to satan for the practices he has set up. Honour God everyday the same and there will not be a need to have a day set aside to remember Him.
 
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zeker33:9

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But don't you see ECR, "open to" means that even if I'm wrong, I'm right, because I can show you Scripture to prove it.
 
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DarylFawcett

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If the observance of Christmas in our churches was such a terribel and sinful thing to do, don't you think God would have conveyed such to Ellen White, especially after what she had written, such as the following?
 
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zeker33:9

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Then she isn't a prophet is she?

You are welcome to see Christmas the way you do because after all, the Bible is open to interpretation right? Thing is, Christians recognize it as the celebration of His birth, not the man in the red suit or a tree. It's all about our Savior coming into the world as foretold, to be the Savior we have today. Without Him we have no hope. If you want to judge me for celebrating His birthday, that's your prerogative. But I know why I celebrate the day and it has nothing to do with a tree or a man in a red suit.

Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. (John 4:22-24)

We know we can't hide anything from Him.
 
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k4c

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The Bible is never calls itself, the word of God. The Bible calls itself, the Scriptures, which means, the writtings. The Bible contains the words of God but they also contain the words of evil men and woman, unbelievers and Satan himself.

Bible translations are not inspired so they have to be tested, studied and evaluated in light of God's will and His overall plan for saving His people. Many of today's doctrines are translated into our modern day translations, for example. The original language uses no commas so where a comma is place in our translations is based on a preconceived belief. If you study and test the belief that a person in alive after death you will find that is not what God says. In order to lead people to believe people are alive after they die you will have to translate the Bible to make it say they are, for example.

Luke 23:42-43 Then the thief said to Jesus, "Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.'' And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.''

The thief had his doctrines right when he asked Jesus to remember his when Jesus comes IN HIS KINGDOM. When Jesus comes in His Kingdom, at His second coming, the dead will be rasied to eternal life, not before. The translators twised the whole verse by placing a comma after the word (you) when Jesus said, "I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise". Placing the comma after the word (you) makes it sound as though you go to heaven or hell at death but this is not what the Bible says as a whole. The comma should have been placed after the word, (today). This would make the verse line up with the etire Bible and God's plan. The verse should read like this, "I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise". Jesus was telling the thief, on that day, that he would be in Paradise with Jesus, not that he would be in Paradaise on that day. We know Jesus was not in Paradise that day with the thief because Jesus was dead and in the tomb three days and on the third day He rose from the dead. Then Jesus told Mary that He had not yet gone to the Father in heaven so neither Jesus or the thief was in Paradise on the day they both hung from the cross.

So will try to say Paradise is somehwere in the grave or under the earth but they too is false. The tree of life is in the Paradise of God.

Revelation 2:7 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.''

The tree of life is where God's throne is, which means Paradise is where God is dwelling.

Revelation 22:1-2 And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
 
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zeker33:9

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The Bible contains the words of God but they also contain the words of evil men and woman, unbelievers and Satan himself.
But don't you see, this is what makes it the truth. God didn't leave out the words and behaviors of evil people and even Satan. That's what makes the Bible the "entire truth". Let me explain.

In Genesis 3:1-6 we see the conversation between Eve and the serpent (recognized as Satan). God didn't leave out the side of the conversation that the serpent said, because it wouldn't make any sense otherwise. But it was to show the deception used.

Just like with Jesus in Matthew 4:1-11, you see both sides of the conversation for a purpose. Satan was definitely lying in both instances, but yet it wasn't left out. So, the account of the lie that satan used in these instances is the truth, that truth being, satan lied and twisted scripture. That doesn't mean we are saying satans words are God's Words, it just means that God included them for us to recognize the lie and twisting of scripture.

Doesn't that make sense?
 
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zeker33:9

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K4C, you seem to be a stickler for grammar and so on, did it ever occur to you that the following verse that SDA's use as "proof text" for the sabbath, is saying something entirely different from what they think.

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. (Isaiah 66:23)

From one to another means everyday in between. If I had a car lot and I advertised "If you come in from 8:00 am. to 6:00 pm. January 2nd 2011 you can get an extra $1500.00 off the purchase price." I'm telling you that you need to be there anytime between those hours on that day. Not at 8:00 am or 6:00 pm.

Interesting don't you think? So in essence what that verse is really saying is that everyday 24/7 we will be worshiping before Him. Not on the sabbath, but everyday in between.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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But there is still a reference to the Sabbath which you can'y get away from....

You are right that the scripture is open to interpretation by man... but through the Holy Spirit, the truth is revealed.

As far as the holiday thing, everyone is convinced in their own mind of what is honourable to God. I have only tried to show people evidences that they may not have seen before regarding the holiday. I don't judge you for what you want to do personally. I do, however, not believe that the church should advocate it. As an example, one of the local SDA churches here apparantly cancelled Sabbath service yesterday because of the holidays... do you see how this can be dangerous??
 
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zeker33:9

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Yes, I do, because you put too much emphasis on a day. Your focus is on the day, not the time with the Lord. Your focus is in the wrong place if you ask me. But hey, that's just me.
 
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k4c

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Yes, I do, because you put too much emphasis on a day. Your focus is on the day, not the time with the Lord. Your focus is in the wrong place if you ask me. But hey, that's just me.

Our emphasis is on obedience through love. If you say you love God yet don’t obey Him that makes you a hypocrite. Obedience through love is the foundation of true worship. So yes, we do put an emphasis on obeying the fourth commandment because it sure seems like everyone is forgetting it. We also put a lot of emphasis on sexual purity, honesty, not stealing and so on.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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zeker33:9

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But don't you see what I'm getting at? ECR said that one church canceled service because Christmas fell on the sabbath. Apparently this church's leaders felt that if people saw them worshiping on Christmas, they'd get the wrong idea thinking they were celebrating Christmas. So they decided it would be better not to have service...all because it was Christmas, and they didn't want to be associated with a pagan holiday. This is what makes a hypocrite.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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Way to twist the facts Zeker... Sabbath was cancelled not because of what others would think but because the members, it seems, wanted to celebrate the holiday more than their Sabbath service....

That is the danger in flirting with the world...
 
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