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mont974x4

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No need to apologize about the "protestant"..I rather like the it. As we should all protest false teaching.

I wouldn't say the body is divided, nor would I say the saints in Heaven are just dead and gone...I do beleive in eternal life.

There just isn't any solid biblical basis for praying to saints.

What Scripture says our prayer is in agreement with those in Heaven?

My questions and concerns regarding biblical support for the teaching still remain unanswered. But then, I ask them in every thread regarding this subject.
 
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Trento

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Again, no where are we told to pray TO anyone other than God. No where in Scripture do we see talking to someone who is dead to be presented in a good way.

The rcc has taken simple ideals and built false doctrines on them making verses say and mean more than the text actually supports.

To reiterate it never ceases to amaze me. There are over a dozen Protestant web sites of all denominations and individuals here that show and brag that Athanasius was the one who first listed their canon of Scripture yet these same people will never admit that at the same time this Bishop believed in praying to our departed members of the Body of Christ.

" Thus might you console us; but what of the flock? Would you first promise the oversight and leadership of yourself, a man under whose wings we all would gladly repose, and for whose words we thirst more eagerly than men suffering from thirst for the purest fountain? Secondly, persuade us that the good shepherd who laid down his life for the sheep(a) has not even now left us; but is present, and tends and guides, and knows his own, and is known of his own, and, though bodily invisible, is spiritually recognized, and defends his flock against the wolves, and allows no one to climb over into the fold as a robber and traitor; to pervert and steal away, by the voice of strangers, souls under the fair guidance of the truth. Aye, I am well assured that his intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay which obscured it, and holds intercourse naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest Mind; being promoted, if it be not rash to say so, to the rank and confidence of an angel."
John Chrysostom,On the Death of his Father,Oration 18:4(A.D. 374),in NPNF2,VII:255-256

These two verses clearly say that everything is NOT in the Bible, and that understanding and discernment by the Church will increase over time.

Matt 10:26, "Therefore, do not be afraid of them. FOR THERE IS NOTHING CONCEALED THAT WILL NOT BE DISCLOSED, AND NOTHING HIDDEN THAT WILL NOT BE REVEALED."

John 16:12-13, "Many things yet I have to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. BUT WHEN HE, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, HAS COME HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THE TRUTH. FOR HE WILL NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY, BUT WHATEVER HE WILL HEAR HE WILL SPEAK, AND THE THINGS THAT ARE TO COME HE WILL DECLARE TO YOU."



The united Catholic and Orthodox witness to the truth on ths along with the unanimous testimony and constant teaching of all the Church Fathers including the very ones who were instructed by Apostles contradicts your ludicrous attempt to interpret Holy Scripture without the guidance of the Church that authored it.
 
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mont974x4

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To reiterate it never ceases to amaze me. There are over a dozen Protestant web sites of all denominations and individuals here that show and brag that Athanasius was the one who first listed their canon of Scripture yet these same people will never admit that at the same time this Bishop believed in praying to our departed members of the Body of Christ.

" Thus might you console us; but what of the flock? Would you first promise the oversight and leadership of yourself, a man under whose wings we all would gladly repose, and for whose words we thirst more eagerly than men suffering from thirst for the purest fountain? Secondly, persuade us that the good shepherd who laid down his life for the sheep(a) has not even now left us; but is present, and tends and guides, and knows his own, and is known of his own, and, though bodily invisible, is spiritually recognized, and defends his flock against the wolves, and allows no one to climb over into the fold as a robber and traitor; to pervert and steal away, by the voice of strangers, souls under the fair guidance of the truth. Aye, I am well assured that his intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay which obscured it, and holds intercourse naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest Mind; being promoted, if it be not rash to say so, to the rank and confidence of an angel."
John Chrysostom,On the Death of his Father,Oration 18:4(A.D. 374),in NPNF2,VII:255-256

These two verses clearly say that everything is NOT in the Bible, and that understanding and discernment by the Church will increase over time.

Matt 10:26, "Therefore, do not be afraid of them. FOR THERE IS NOTHING CONCEALED THAT WILL NOT BE DISCLOSED, AND NOTHING HIDDEN THAT WILL NOT BE REVEALED."

John 16:12-13, "Many things yet I have to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. BUT WHEN HE, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, HAS COME HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THE TRUTH. FOR HE WILL NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY, BUT WHATEVER HE WILL HEAR HE WILL SPEAK, AND THE THINGS THAT ARE TO COME HE WILL DECLARE TO YOU."



The united Catholic and Orthodox witness to the truth on ths along with the unanimous testimony and constant teaching of all the Church Fathers including the very ones who were instructed by Apostles contradicts your ludicrous attempt to interpret Holy Scripture without the guidance of the Church that authored it.
I have to soundly reject any teaching that has no biblical basis...and especially those that contradict Scripture.

Those verses certainly do not say what you claim they do, but I suspect you'll fall back on tradition instead anyways.

People are free to follow traditions of men and false teachings and the numbers of people in agreement with them does not make them right.


BTW, thanks for recognizing my posts as ludicrous. Welcome to ther ignore list. I value my pearls and certainly won't waste anymore time on you.
 
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narnia59

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No need to apologize about the "protestant"..I rather like the it. As we should all protest false teaching.

I wouldn't say the body is divided, nor would I say the saints in Heaven are just dead and gone...I do beleive in eternal life.

There just isn't any solid biblical basis for praying to saints.

What Scripture says our prayer is in agreement with those in Heaven?

My questions and concerns regarding biblical support for the teaching still remain unanswered. But then, I ask them in every thread regarding this subject.
If our prayer isn't in agreement with those in heaven, don't you think we might be praying the wrong prayer?:scratch:

In the 11th chapter of Hebrews, Paul goes through a 'litany' of saints that have gone before us. We're told that "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."

If they're so separated from us, why is it that only together with us they are made perfect?

Then Paul says we are surrounded with this cloud of witnesses, and associates them with our enduring to finish the race we have started. Why? What do they have to do with our enduring & finishing the race? And if they're not aware of us (as some claim), how can they 'surround' us? They don't surround us physically, which means they surround us spiritually, in prayer.

Then he explains how Christians come to God. It contrasts Moses coming to the holy mountain, which could not be touched, to how Christians come to God.

"But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel."

We do not come to Jesus as mediator separate from the rest of the body of Christ. We come to the city of the living God. Again, why, if the spirits of righteous men made perfect have nothing to do with us?
 
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DArceri

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Originally Posted by Trento,
These two verses clearly say that everything is NOT in the Bible, and that understanding and discernment by the Church will increase over time.

Matt 10:26, "Therefore, do not be afraid of them. FOR THERE IS NOTHING CONCEALED THAT WILL NOT BE DISCLOSED, AND NOTHING HIDDEN THAT WILL NOT BE REVEALED."

John 16:12-13, "Many things yet I have to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. BUT WHEN HE, THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH, HAS COME HE WILL TEACH YOU ALL THE TRUTH. FOR HE WILL NOT SPEAK ON HIS OWN AUTHORITY, BUT WHATEVER HE WILL HEAR HE WILL SPEAK, AND THE THINGS THAT ARE TO COME HE WILL DECLARE TO YOU."
UUUHHH, Lets look at more context please.

5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away.

Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

8 When He comes, He will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.


The apostles do not convict, it is GOD who convicts. I say this because it is GOD who finds HIS SHEEP through His WORD AND HIS SPIRIT (talking to our spirit).

Listen, if someone is not one of His sheep, he won't HEAR GOD....And if someone can't hear God, why would he hear through the RCC???????!!!


The united Catholic and Orthodox witness to the truth on ths along with the unanimous testimony and constant teaching of all the Church Fathers including the very ones who were instructed by Apostles contradicts your ludicrous attempt to interpret Holy Scripture without the guidance of the Church that authored it.
THE TEST IS SCRIPTURE....ALL MUST CONFORM TO SCRIPTURE... EVEN THE PROPHETS AND APOSTLES CLAIMS WERE SUBJECT TO SCRIPTURE...WE ARE FORWARNED BY JESUS HIMSELF TO TEST THINGS AGAINST HIS TRUTH. Since His truth is IN HIS WORD indwelling in us through His Spirit, it is Christ within us discerning what is right and wrong (God convicts, not the church). The Spirit of God is guiding His sheep (through conviction), for his sheep know His voice and He knows His sheep. The Church is the body of believers ie. HIS SHEEP...The Epheses Church in Revelation was commended for not following false claims by those who called themselves APOSTLES. Now how does one know who a false prophet or apostle is? Well, scripture of course.....The Ephesus Church was diligent to HIS WORD and Christ commended them for it.

Matt 22:29, 31 "Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God........have you not read what God said to you"
 
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DArceri

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If our prayer isn't in agreement with those in heaven, don't you think we might be praying the wrong prayer?:scratch:
Well I hope our prayer is in agreement with God's will, just like the Saints in Heaven, for they are the models of faith we learn from in scripture. They followed God's will just like we need to follow God's will. But what does this have to do with them being able to hear our prayers? We pray to God to know and follow HIS WILL just like the saints did in their day.
In the 11th chapter of Hebrews, Paul goes through a 'litany' of saints that have gone before us. We're told that "These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect."
Well. God does not break promises. However, they knew little about God's redemption plans through Jesus, ie. the New Covenant. Their faith was not in some immediate fullfillment, BUT IN THE ULTIMATE FULLFILLMENT OF THE PROMISES OF A MESSIAH.

If they're so separated from us, why is it that only together with us they are made perfect?
Not until our time, the time of Christianity, could their salvation be completed, ie. MADE PERFECT.....FOR IT TAKES CHRIST'S BLOOD TO REDEEM THEM.

Then Paul says we are surrounded with this cloud of witnesses, and associates them with our enduring to finish the race we have started. Why? What do they have to do with our enduring & finishing the race?
AGAIN...We look to them as a model of genuine faith. For even before the Cross, they endured for the hope of a savor to come. NOW that is faith!!! Amen!? Remember, even though we live on the other side of the cross, that doesn't mean everyone will be saved. It takes God opening our eyes to His truth, not a cloud of saints.

And if they're not aware of us (as some claim), how can they 'surround' us? They don't surround us physically, which means they surround us spiritually, in prayer.
No. They don't surround us spiritually for that would make them omnipresent. THE saints cry for justice just like we cry for justice. They are 'aware' of our suffering because they went through it themselves, ie. they are our 'witnesses'. However they are not omniscient or omnipresent or omni-anything. All they can do is pray for God's sheep and justice to come soon.


We do not come to Jesus as mediator separate from the rest of the body of Christ. We come to the city of the living God. Again, why, if the spirits of righteous men made perfect have nothing to do with us?

Christ is GOD....He is the uncreated, He has all the attributes of God the Father. He hears and answers prayers. He created the Heavens and the Earth. He has no mediator. His sheep HEAR HIS VOICE, not saints voices. God knows His sheep, the saints do not know HIS SHEEP. Also, only God knows the heart, right?, He responds to prayer for the repentant, right? How does a saint know who has a godly repentant heart? The saints are not omniscient, they are not God.
 
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WarEagle

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Jesus is the Redeemer, and yes, we are all co-redeemers.

In context, when Mary is referred to as co-redemptrix, it does not mean that Jesus is co-redeemer, as many immediately try to re-define it to meaning.

This does not mean that Mary does not have a special and unique role within the body of believers. It does not reduce her to being 'just one of us'. For I was not chosen by the Father to be the one person to participate in the Incarnation.

Mary is dead and does not and cannot contribute anything to our redemption.
 
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Trento

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UUUHHH, Lets look at more context please.

5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away.

Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you.

8 When He comes, He will convict the world of guilt in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.


The apostles do not convict, it is GOD who convicts. I say this because it is GOD who finds HIS SHEEP through His WORD AND HIS SPIRIT (talking to our spirit).

Listen, if someone is not one of His sheep, he won't HEAR GOD....And if someone can't hear God, why would he hear through the RCC???????!!!



THE TEST IS SCRIPTURE....ALL MUST CONFORM TO SCRIPTURE... EVEN THE PROPHETS AND APOSTLES CLAIMS WERE SUBJECT TO SCRIPTURE...WE ARE FORWARNED BY JESUS HIMSELF TO TEST THINGS AGAINST HIS TRUTH. Since His truth is IN HIS WORD indwelling in us through His Spirit, it is Christ within us discerning what is right and wrong (God convicts, not the church). The Spirit of God is guiding His sheep (through conviction), for his sheep know His voice and He knows His sheep. The Church is the body of believers ie. HIS SHEEP...The Epheses Church in Revelation was commended for not following false claims by those who called themselves APOSTLES. Now how does one know who a false prophet or apostle is? Well, scripture of course.....The Ephesus Church was diligent to HIS WORD and Christ commended them for it.

Matt 22:29, 31 "Jesus replied, "You are in error because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God........have you not read what God said to you"


"And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well." (Cf. 2 Timothy 2:2) "Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well. Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father." (Cf. 1 John 2:22)



Under whose interpretation, and why should we take your authority for it since under bible alone (putting on my protestant hat) I don't agree with you. In fact I find under my bible alone that you are 100 percent wrong.

My bible alone vs. your bible alone. Which interpretation is correct? I claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. You? I say our bible alone is your bible plus tradition, since you are trying to teach your interpretation. Which means you aren't using bible alone, but your own authority, which I haven't found you have according to scripture.
Why should I believe you have the authority to interpret for me. In fact under bible alone why are you teaching me your tradition? You just made your tradition equal to scripture.

Scripture isn't interpreting scripture (one of the greatest fallacies ever proposed). you are interpreting scripture, which doesn't mean a whole lot.One bible alone believer vs. another. Who is correct? The Holy Spirit surely is confusing all these people teaching them different things.

The problem with Sola scriptura bottom line is that it places scripture above the Jesus body the church and we as individual members of it, with Jesus as the head, subservient to the presence of Christ in the body.

In other words God, Jesus Christ is lower than scripture. Where as catholics say Christ in his presence in the body and his living words in sacred scripture are equal. Tradition emanates from the Holy Spirit indwelling within us, but in the sola scriptura scheme, He is also lower and not equal to scripture.


All Protestant churches claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. How can this be true when no two of these churches can agree but compete with each other for membership on what they claim to be the truth inspired by the Holy Spirit? Furthermore, how can this claim be true when there is only one inerrant Holy Spirit?
Sola Scriptura is bunk if one truly has the trinity residing within them because they would recognize that simple fact.


 
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DArceri

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"And what you heard from me through many witnesses entrust to faithful people who will have the ability to teach others as well." (Cf. 2 Timothy 2:2) "Who is the liar? Whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Whoever denies the Father and the Son, this is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father, but whoever confesses the Son has the Father as well. Let what you heard from the beginning remain in you. If what you heard from the beginning remains in you, then you will remain in the Son and in the Father." (Cf. 1 John 2:22)



Under whose interpretation, and why should we take your authority for it since under bible alone (putting on my protestant hat) I don't agree with you. In fact I find under my bible alone that you are 100 percent wrong.

My bible alone vs. your bible alone. Which interpretation is correct? I claim to be led by the Holy Spirit. You? I say our bible alone is your bible plus tradition, since you are trying to teach your interpretation. Which means you aren't using bible alone, but your own authority, which I haven't found you have according to scripture.
Why should I believe you have the authority to interpret for me. In fact under bible alone why are you teaching me your tradition? You just made your tradition equal to scripture.

Scripture isn't interpreting scripture (one of the greatest fallacies ever proposed). you are interpreting scripture, which doesn't mean a whole lot.One bible alone believer vs. another. Who is correct? The Holy Spirit surely is confusing all these people teaching them different things.

The problem with Sola scriptura bottom line is that it places scripture above the Jesus body the church and we as individual members of it, with Jesus as the head, subservient to the presence of Christ in the body.

In other words God, Jesus Christ is lower than scripture. Where as catholics say Christ in his presence in the body and his living words in sacred scripture are equal. Tradition emanates from the Holy Spirit indwelling within us, but in the sola scriptura scheme, He is also lower and not equal to scripture.


All Protestant churches claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. How can this be true when no two of these churches can agree but compete with each other for membership on what they claim to be the truth inspired by the Holy Spirit? Furthermore, how can this claim be true when there is only one inerrant Holy Spirit?
Sola Scriptura is bunk if one truly has the trinity residing within them because they would recognize that simple fact.


My interpretation is not above yours or anyone elses. However, the way to resolve disputes is with scripture. Everyone is subject to scripture, even me as sola scripturist. If I am wrong, by the grace of God, scripture will prove itself out and rebuke me. If I have Christ in me, the Spirit of God will eventually lead me to His truth. If God does not lead me to His truth, then I might not have the Spirit of God after all. Anyway, false 'apostles' and 'prophets' do not have the Holy spirit guiding them and are going to be judged on what they preach:

"For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve."- 2 Cor 11:13-15

But bottom line, scripture is the plumbline to God's Truth. We cannot deviate from it. Paul rebuked Peter because he diverged from scripture. He and Barnabus were called hypocrites. They never realized what they were doing until someone (Paul) pointed out scripture to them. And Peter realizing scripture HAS AUTHORITY over all, took Paul's words with love and corrected his ways. Just because Peter was 'chosen' does not mean he was above scripture. Galatians 2:4,5 says:

"....some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you."

Scripture is above false apostle teachings my friend.

Listen,

Are the Apostles part of the Church?

Is the Church the "bride of Christ"?

Shouldn't the 'bride' be obediant to the 'husband?

DOESN'T A GOOD 'BRIDE' SEEK AND OBEY THE 'VOICE' OF THE 'HUSBAND'?

Isn't Scripture the 'voice of the husband' that speaks to the 'bride'.

IF THE CHURCH HEARS THE VOICE OF GOD THROUGH SCRIPTURE, THEN THE CHURCH (BRIDE) IS SUPPOSE TO OBEY THE WORD OF GOD (SCRIPTURE)!!!!
 
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Trento

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Scripture is above false apostle teachings my friend.

Listen,

Are the Apostles part of the Church?

Is the Church the "bride of Christ"?

Shouldn't the 'bride' be obediant to the 'husband?

DOESN'T A GOOD 'BRIDE' SEEK AND OBEY THE 'VOICE' OF THE 'HUSBAND'?

Isn't Scripture the 'voice of the husband' that speaks to the 'bride'.

IF THE CHURCH HEARS THE VOICE OF GOD THROUGH SCRIPTURE, THEN THE CHURCH (BRIDE) IS SUPPOSE TO OBEY THE WORD OF GOD (SCRIPTURE)!!!!


The Church,, began as an almost totally Jewish sect. Its Lord was a Jew, the apostles were all Jews, the first thousands of converts were Jews and the only Bible it had when Gentiles began flooding into the Church were Jewish Scriptures. As delegates of the supposed Bible-only "hidden Church" attending the Council of Jerusalem, let's try to resolve the question of whether to circumcise Gentiles who want to join the Covenant People. What does Scripture say?
It says the covenant of circumcision is "an everlasting covenant" (Gen 17:7). It says the Patriarchs, Moses and the Prophets are circumcised. It says that circumcision is enjoined, not only on descendants of Abraham, but upon every male who wants to join the Covenant People (Ex 12:48). Period. No exceptions. Moreover, looking around the room we note that the apostles and elders are all circumcised and that the Lord Jesus they preach was circumcised (Lk 2:21). And Jesus himself says that not one jot or tittle of the law would by any means pass away (Mt 5:18) while he is stone silent that Gentiles be exempted from the immemorial requirement of circumcision for all who wish to join the Covenant People.
And so, the Council meets and, in light of all this obvious scriptural teaching, declares....
....that circumcision for Gentiles is against the will of the God who does not change.
Suddenly the whole thing looks perversely Catholic, don't it? So did apostolic Tradition change Scripture or what?
It simply acted as a lens and refocused the light of Scripture so that something which had been hidden there was now visible. For, despite appearances, the dogmatic definitions of the Church do not just pop up with absolutely no relation to Scripture. Rather, they assemble the materially sufficient revelation of Scripture using Sacred Tradition. And that Tradition is not separate, secret and parallel to Scripture, but the common teaching, life, and worship of the Church. In the case of the Council of Jerusalem, the common teaching from the apostles included the then-unwritten command of Christ to preach the gospel to the whole world (Mt 28:19). It included the as-yet-unwritten common knowledge of Peter's mystical revelation by the Holy Spirit ("Do not call anything impure that God has made clean" [Acts 10:15]). It included the experiences of Paul and Barnabas in preaching to the Gentiles (Acts 15:12). It is through this Sacred Tradition that James reads Scripture and sees in Scripture, not a judge or "final rule of faith" but a witness to the authoritative decision of the Church in Council. For he says not "we agree with the Prophet Amos" but rather that the words of the prophets "agree with" the Council (Acts 15:15). In short, the Council places the Church on the judge's seat and the Scripture in the witness box, deriving its revelation not from Scripture alone but from Sacred Tradition and the magisterial authority of the apostles in union with Scripture.
Shea on Acts 15
 
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DArceri

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The Church,, began as an almost totally Jewish sect. Its Lord was a Jew, the apostles were all Jews, the first thousands of converts were Jews and the only Bible it had when Gentiles began flooding into the Church were Jewish Scriptures. As delegates of the supposed Bible-only "hidden Church" attending the Council of Jerusalem, let's try to resolve the question of whether to circumcise Gentiles who want to join the Covenant People. What does Scripture say?
It says the covenant of circumcision is "an everlasting covenant" (Gen 17:7). It says the Patriarchs, Moses and the Prophets are circumcised. It says that circumcision is enjoined, not only on descendants of Abraham, but upon every male who wants to join the Covenant People (Ex 12:48). Period. No exceptions. Moreover, looking around the room we note that the apostles and elders are all circumcised and that the Lord Jesus they preach was circumcised (Lk 2:21). And Jesus himself says that not one jot or tittle of the law would by any means pass away (Mt 5:18) while he is stone silent that Gentiles be exempted from the immemorial requirement of circumcision for all who wish to join the Covenant People.
And so, the Council meets and, in light of all this obvious scriptural teaching, declares....
....that circumcision for Gentiles is against the will of the God who does not change.
Suddenly the whole thing looks perversely Catholic, don't it? So did apostolic Tradition change Scripture or what?
It simply acted as a lens and refocused the light of Scripture so that something which had been hidden there was now visible. For, despite appearances, the dogmatic definitions of the Church do not just pop up with absolutely no relation to Scripture. Rather, they assemble the materially sufficient revelation of Scripture using Sacred Tradition. And that Tradition is not separate, secret and parallel to Scripture, but the common teaching, life, and worship of the Church. In the case of the Council of Jerusalem, the common teaching from the apostles included the then-unwritten command of Christ to preach the gospel to the whole world (Mt 28:19). It included the as-yet-unwritten common knowledge of Peter's mystical revelation by the Holy Spirit ("Do not call anything impure that God has made clean" [Acts 10:15]). It included the experiences of Paul and Barnabas in preaching to the Gentiles (Acts 15:12). It is through this Sacred Tradition that James reads Scripture and sees in Scripture, not a judge or "final rule of faith" but a witness to the authoritative decision of the Church in Council. For he says not "we agree with the Prophet Amos" but rather that the words of the prophets "agree with" the Council (Acts 15:15). In short, the Council places the Church on the judge's seat and the Scripture in the witness box, deriving its revelation not from Scripture alone but from Sacred Tradition and the magisterial authority of the apostles in union with Scripture.
Shea on Acts 15
Trento, you want to summarize this into your own words. I don't want to respond to every point in this article. All that you try to bring up is O.T. covenants BEFORE CHRIST'S BLOOD. Sorry if you don't understand that there is a NEW COVENANT. Maybe you should reread the 'Beatitiudes', or remember what Christ called the two greatest commandments. As for circumcision or Sabbath or whatever (CEREMONIAL THINGS), take a look at SCRIPTURE, in particular, Col 2:6-23:


Freedom From Human Regulations Through Life With Christ

6So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, 7rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.

8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.
9For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. 11In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, 12having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.
13When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. 15And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.
16Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. 20Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21"Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.
 
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TraderJack

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TraderJack

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Originally Posted by TraderJack
Have a nice life.:wave: :prayer: :prayer:
Oh nice flame dude!!!

ROUND AND ROUND WE GO WHERE THE INSULTS WILL STOP NO BODY KNOWS!!!!!!!

I think you need to learn what a "flame" and "insult" is in reality and not what you want them to be.;)
 
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Uphill Battle

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Originally Posted by TraderJack
Have a nice life.:wave: :prayer: :prayer:


I think you need to learn what a "flame" and "insult" is in reality and not what you want them to be.;)
don't worry, Augustine. I didn't consider it a flame.
 
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TraderJack

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I am not new here


Let's see, the record shows that you joined here on:
28th December 2007


And you have to date 73 posts.

Both of those say you are new here.

But you say you are not new here.

Which one is telling the truth?
 
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TraderJack

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Actually, the view of JPII and Catholics is that we all participate in the redemptory work of Christ.

If that truly were the place, then no one would be lifted up to any higher position than another, as Mary is.
No doubt Mary, as humble as she was, weeps to know how she has been practically deified by so many, and raised to a level equal to Christ.
 
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TraderJack

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This is Orthodox Apostolic Christian belief.


In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, 'Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.' But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise 'they were both naked, and were not ashamed,' inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty. And it has, in fact, happened that the first compact looses from the second tie, but that the second tie takes the position of the first which has been cancelled. For this reason did the Lord declare that the first should in truth be last, and the last first. And the prophet, too, indicates the same, saying, "instead of fathers, children have been born unto thee.' For the Lord, having been born "the First-begotten of the dead,' and receiving into His bosom the ancient fathers, has regenerated them into the life of God, He having been made Himself the beginning of those that live, as Adam became the beginning of those who die. Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve's disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith."
Irenaeus,Against Heresies,3:22(A.D. 180),in ANF,I:455

There is one Physician who is possessed both of flesh and spirit; both made and not made; God existing in flesh; true life in death; both of Mary and of God; first possible and then impossible, even Jesus Christ our Lord."
Ignatius,To the Ephesians,7(A.D.110),in ANF,I:52


Accordingly, a virgin did conceive and bear 'Emmanuel, God with us.' This is the new nativity; a man is born in God. And in this man God was born, taking the flesh of an ancient race, without the help, however, of the ancient seed, in order that He might reform it with a new seed, that is, in a spiritual manner, and cleanse it by the re-moral of all its ancient stains. But the whole of this new birth was prefigured, as was the case in all other instances, in ancient type, the Lord being born as man by a dispensation in which a virgin was the medium. The earth was still in a virgin state, reduced as yet by no human labour, with no seed as yet cast into its furrows, when, as we are told, God made man out of it into a living soul. As, then, the first Adam is thus introduced to us, it is a just inference that the second Adam likewise, as the apostle has told us, was formed by God into a quickening spirit out of the ground,--in other words, out of a flesh which was unstained as yet by any human generation. But that I may lose no opportunity of supporting my argument from the name of Adam, why is Christ called Adam by the apostle, unless it be that, as man, He was of that earthly origin? And even reason here maintains the same conclusion, because it was by just the contrary operation that God recovered His own image and likeness, of which He had been robbed by the devil. For it was while Eve was yet a virgin, that the ensnaring word had crept into her ear which was to build the edifice of death. Into a virgin's soul, in like manner, must be introduced that Word of God which was to raise the fabric of life; so that what had been reduced to ruin by this sex, might by the selfsame sex be recovered to salvation. As Eve had believed the serpent, so Mary believed the angel. The delinquency which the one occasioned by believing, the other by believing effaced. But (it will be said) Eve did not at the devil's word conceive in her womb. Well, she at all events conceived; for the devil's word afterwards became as seed to her that she should conceive as an outcast, and bring forth in sorrow. Indeed she gave birth to a fratricidal devil; whilst Mary, on the contrary, bare one who was one day to secure salvation to Israel, His own brother after the flesh, and the murderer of Himself. God therefore sent down into the virgin's womb His Word, as the good Brother, who should blot out the memory of the evil brother. Hence it was necessary that Christ should come forth for the salvation of man, in that condition of flesh into which man had entered ever since his condemnation."
Tertullian,Flesh of Christ,17(A.D. 212),in ANF,III:536

So?

Roman Catholicism goes way beyond that.
 
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TraderJack

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Good thing you threw in that last line Trento, I think you'll find the Mormons are doing much better than that number wise. Not even counting the baptisms for the dead of course.

Just goes to show truth isn't rewarded with numbers.

Marv

Quite the opposite is true:

Matthew 7;
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


The larger the number, the greater the number entering into hell.
 
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