Hitler

[LivingWordUnity]

An entire country? How does anyone know that they are true Christians if any of us would do what the German soldiers, guards, and even everyday citizens given a charismatic leader?

Germany had a lot of socialists in it when Hitler rose to power. And many of them voted for Hitler. So it's not accurate say that it was a Christian country. And Hitler's religion was a national one. Christianity is not compatible with a national religion. Did you read the papal encyclical that I posted early in this thread?

 

[WarriorAngel]

Seems like the Holy Spirit ought to be a defense against that.

If all were to use a formed conscience - true.
But ppl through out time have been able to justify what they want with excuses [hence the divisions and various new sects that cropped up] ...or in the case of Germans - be brainwashed to believe it is just.
This just goes to prove - we dont all have it correct - if we color outside the lines of the Lord's teachings via His Church.
His Church - His word.
Otherwise - ppl have the free will to believe as they chose.
IF all remained faithful to the HS - all would be Catholic - all would be righteous.
The Holy Spirit remains faithful - ppl do not.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Germany had a lot of socialists in it when Hitler rose to power. And many of them voted for Hitler. So it's not accurate say that it was a Christian country. And Hitler's religion was a national one. Christianity is not compatible with a national religion. Did you read the papal encyclical that I posted early in this thread?

If 95% of people are Christian, that makes it a Christian country, right? Also, actual Socialism is a political and economic system and is no more mutually exclusive with Christianity than Capitalism. If many Germans were socialist prior to joining the fascist Nazi party they were still Christian.

 

[WarriorAngel]

If 95% of people are Christian, that makes it a Christian country, right?

America is allegedly 80% Christian... however; that doesnt mean ppl vote according to Christian principles. Or at least not the Traditional principles of history and Catholicism.
They vote by preference due to popularity - mostly - which comes via brainwashing.
Whoever controls the media - controls the vote.
Thats why more democrats are popular than republicans.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

If 95% of people are Christian, that makes it a Christian country, right? Also, actual Socialism is a political and economic system and is no more mutually exclusive with Christianity than Capitalism. If many Germans were socialist prior to joining the fascist Nazi party they were still Christian.

Like I said, lots of people are "Christian" in name alone. There are lots of people who are "Christian" in name but atheist, agnostic, or pagan in beliefs. If someone says they are a Catholic but they don't believe in or follow what the Catholic Church teaches how can it be said that they are representing Catholicism?

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

So honestly, those of you who are secure in your faith, are you confident that if you were a young person in Hitler's Germany you would refuse to participate in the war and Holocaust? It seems any time individual Christians or large groups of Christians do something extremely contrary to their faith, it's claimed that they aren't 'real' Christians.

 

[WarriorAngel]

So honestly, those of you who are secure in your faith, are you confident that if you were a young person in Hitler's Germany you would refuse to participate in the war and Holocaust? It seems any time individual Christians or large groups of Christians do something extremely contrary to their faith, it's claimed that they aren't 'real' Christians.

Ratzinger - aka Emeritus Pope Benedict 16th - joined either the priesthood or became a monk [i forget how he did it but it was thru the Church's vocations] to avoid participating in Hitler's youth.
He let the HS lead his conscience.

The road is narrow.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

So honestly, those of you who are secure in your faith, are you confident that if you were a young person in Hitler's Germany you would refuse to participate in the war and Holocaust? It seems any time individual Christians or large groups of Christians do something extremely contrary to their faith, it's claimed that they aren't 'real' Christians.

If one of us Catholics ever acts in contradiction to Catholicism we would be representing what happens when a Catholic fails to live up to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

If one of us Catholics ever acts in contradiction to Catholicism we would be representing what happens when a Catholic fails to live up to the teachings of the Catholic Church.

??

 

[LivingWordUnity]

??

What is it that you don't understand? Is it because I didn't directly answer what I would do in that situation? Since I'm not in that exact situation I can only try to relate it to something today that the Church says is evil such as abortion. The Catholic Church says that abortion is murder, and I don't support abortion. But there are many Catholics who do. Catholics who supported the Nazis in Germany rationalized it the same way that a lot of Catholics today rationalize supporting abortion.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

What I didn't understand is that your post seemed to say that Catholics who don't follow Catholic teaching are examples of Catholics not following Catholic teachings. Did I misunderstand it?

What is it that you don't understand? Is it because I didn't directly answer what I would do in that situation? Since I'm not in that exact situation I can only try to relate it to something today that the Church says is evil such as abortion. The Catholic Church says that abortion is murder, and I don't support abortion. But there are many Catholics who do. Catholics who supported the Nazis in Germany rationalized it the same way that a lot of Catholics today rationalize supporting abortion.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

What I didn't understand is that your post seemed to say that Catholics who don't follow Catholic teaching are examples of Catholics not following Catholic teachings. Did I misunderstand it?

The Catholics who ignore the teachings of the Church aren't representing Catholicism. But the saints represent Catholicism since they are examples of Catholics who believed and lived according to the teachings of the Church.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Still not following. ..If you are a Catholic that doesn't follow all the teaching of the Catholic Church, you are a Catholic but you don't represent Catholicism? I don't see the distinction between being a Catholic and representing Catholicism. I also don't see how it applies to the multitudes who were Catholic (or other Christians ) yet went along with the Holocaust.

The Catholics who ignore the teachings of the Church aren't representing Catholicism even though they are Catholics. But the saints represent Catholicism since they are examples of Catholics who believed and lived according to the teachings of the Church.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Still not following. ..If you are a Catholic that doesn't follow all the teaching of the Catholic Church, you are a Catholic but you don't represent Catholicism? I don't see the distinction between being a Catholic and representing Catholicism. I also don't see how it applies to the multitudes who were Catholic (or other Christians ) yet went along with the Holocaust.

Catholicism is a religion with teachings. A Catholic represents Catholicism in as much as he or she abides by said religion.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

Sounds like being a Catholic is simply about following the teachings, not listening to the Holy Spirit that one should have received and been changed by in Confirmation.
This is a stumbling block for me, if a true faith doesn't change a person is it really a true faith? If the vast majority of people in a situation like living in Nazi Germany can participate in atrocities while believing they are Christian then what does that say? Most who claim Christianity are deluded?

Catholicism is a religion with teachings. A Catholic represents Catholicism in as much as he or she abides by said religion.

 

[LivingWordUnity]

Sounds like being a Catholic is simply about following the teachings, not listening to the Holy Spirit that one should have received and been changed by in Confirmation.
This is a stumbling block for me, if a true faith doesn't change a person is it really a true faith? If the vast majority of people in a situation like living in Nazi Germany can participate in atrocities while believing they are Christian then what does that say? Most who claim Christianity are deluded?

The teachings of the Church are inspired by the Holy Spirit. It's the only place where we are guaranteed that what we are receiving is from the Holy Spirit. People can deceive themselves, and the Devil is a master of deception and can appear as an angel of light. Someone can think that their idea is from the Holy Spirit when it's actually from the Devil. Jesus only gave His guarantee of the Holy Spirit to His Church. Outside of that there's no guarantee of the Holy Spirit but instead a strong likelihood that one will be deceived by the Devil as what happened in Hitler's case.

 

[Mountain_Girl406]

That brings up another question. ..if we look at your comparison issue, abortion, when I go to church, I am often taught how the Church views abortion, the teachings in this area are often expressed at Mass. In fact, I've never been to a Catholic Mass where it was even hinted at that abortion could be ok.
So, were the Catholic Churches in Germany preaching against the moral evil surrounding them during the time of WW2 and the Holocaust? Were they telling the faithful to lay down their arms and refuse orders to kill and imprison Jews, as they now teach the faithful to not have abortions and fight for the unborn?

 

[LivingWordUnity]

That brings up another question. ..if we look at your comparison issue, abortion, when I go to church, I am often taught how the Church views abortion, the teachings in this area are often expressed at Mass. In fact, I've never been to a Catholic Mass where it was even hinted at that abortion could be ok.
So, were the Catholic Churches in Germany preaching against the moral evil surrounding them during the time of WW2 and the Holocaust? Were they telling the faithful to lay down their arms and refuse orders to kill and imprison Jews, as they now teach the faithful to not have abortions and fight for the unborn?

See post #2 of this thread.

 

[thecolorsblend]

The party members had varied religious beliefs, not all of which were even remotely Christian. Attributing all of them to Hitler personally seems a bit presumptuous (and contradictory). I've never bothered looking it up to find out for sure but I've read that Hitler had a Catholic funeral. Assuming that's true, clearly the Church believed he was still Catholic.

Yes, he and Braun had a civil ceremony... but considering Berlin was in the process of getting bombed to smithereens at the time, I'm not sure what other option was on the table at that moment.

All of this overlooks the fact that the German army reopened Orthodox churches in conquered territories during Operation: Barbarossa without any conditions and even without any official request that they do so (to the delight of local residents). While they were at it, they also shut down every Masonic lodge they could find in those territories and chased the members out of town. Maybe I'm wrong here but I don't think these are not the actions of an anti-Christian regime.

 

[football5680]

Hitler didn't claim Christianity. No doubt he simply ticked the box when he joined the German Army during the war. At that time it may have been automatic due to his Austrian citizenship.
I have a sense that Luther's antisemitism was not widely known before the Nazis decided to make use of it.

In his earlier speeches in the 1930's he did publicly claim to be Christian.

Luther Anti-Semitism was known but was too radical and his ideas on how to handle the Jews were only acted upon for a short period after his death. The Nazi's definitely revitalized his ideas though.