History of the Trinity

[Pavel Mosko]

I used to believe that the Logos was a "Hellenistic" idea until I listened to Michael Heiser. The Logos idea is actually quite Jewish as the following article from the Jewish Encyclopedia also explains:

MEMRA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Yes but this gets into the "Two Powers of Heaven" type topic.

 

[public hermit]

The question therefore is: did John, who evidently had Aramaic as his mother tongue,[33] use the word logos because of its connotations in Greek philosophy or were the connotations of John’s logos similar to those of the Aramaic memra

Is it problematic if there is some of both influencing John's use? I don't find it problematic, personally, but what would be the reasons for finding it so?

Going back to the assertion that the early church was unduly influenced by Greek thinking, I think there are various notions within the scriptures that would be susceptible to a similar claim. The whole developed view of the afterlife in the NT had to have outside influence, for instance.

I don't want to derail this really good thread; I just don't think the argument about outside influences is as problematic and some might want to say. This is God's world. There's no doubt that Greek philosophy (Neoplatonism) very much influenced the early church. Still, which position makes more sense: even Greek philosophy and other outside influences were divinely order for God's purposes or God tried to keep it pure but demonic influences prevailed? Even if one takes the later position, I doubt they would be able to present a pure form. If they believe in heaven and hell they've already lost the argument. The pure form among Hebrews was simply Sheol (which was very much like the Greek Hades-the abode of the dead/shades).

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Is it problematic if there is some of both influencing John's use? I don't find it problematic, personally, but what would be the reasons for finding it so?

It's not problematic in the sense of being heretical. It's more in the sense of being not realistic because Jews who were not from Alexandria and the rest of the Greek speaking world would not be under that kind of cultural gravitational pull. The various Two Powers in Heaven and Memra stuff mentioned would be more the thing. OF course those ideas basically lead you into similar kinds of Logos ideas etc.

 

[The Liturgist]

The problem, as I see it, is not the Filioque per se but the Trinitarian understanding behind it. In my experience, people do not discuss the Trinity because they know the discussion leads to disagreements. But, when I joined the CF, I participated in Trinitarian discussions. I was flabbergasted that most people, and I mean theologically knowledgeable people, believed in what I considered to be Tritheism and I was quite disappointed. Later, I did some reading and discovered that what I considered Tritheism is actually called the Social concept of the Trinity. This is a simplistic, and thus widespread theory, and it is behind the Filioque. And far too many people consider it the proper understanding of the Trinity.


Yes, this is the Eastern concept, which I can understand and agree with.


I think this is the Social concept. It sounds like 3 Gods. But since it was your childhood belief and you grew out of it, let's not get into this .

It’s not the social concept, and it wasn’t my belief, but rather language I was exposed to, however, I still use the terminology to emphasize the deity of the three persons. Because the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and of course the Father is God, and their coequality and coeternality is an article of Christian faith, as is, very importantly, their consubstantiality, or coessentiality, because it becomes tritheism is if we say the three persons of the Trinity are not of one essence (homoousios), so in a sense, Arianism, insofar as it regarded Jesus Christ as a God according to honor, was bitheistic. What I was not taught in my childhood was the doctrine of consubstantiality, but merely the phrase”one Godhood”, since the Methodist church we attended only ever used the Apostles Creed, and later stopped using any Creed, and the Lutherans did not teach it to me, so when I first came across the Nicene Creed and Quincunque Vult (the “Athanasian”) which fully explain the Trinity, it was something of a revelation. And my appreciation for Quincunque Vult was further bolstered a few years ago when I purchased A Psalter for Prayer and was delighted to find the version without the Filioque, which I knew of thanks to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, but had not previously encountered.

Now Metropolitan Kallistos Ware has described rhe Trinity as a union of perfect love, which we are called to make an icon of in our social relations in Church, in our families, and with our fellow human beings in general, which I have heard called “the social concept” but obviously this is tempered by the fact that, as you correctly observed, Eastern Triadology, or to be more precise, Nicene Triadology (the filioque emerged at a council in Spain I believe, in the former province of Baetica, it may have been Hispania-Terraconensis, but for the moment, Niceno-Baetican Triadology has a nice ring), does not lend itself to Tritheistic interpretations since the Son is begotten from the Father and the Spirit proceeds from the Father.

A more common criticism of the filioque however is that it depersonalizes the Holy Spirit, turning Him from the Lord and Giver of Life who spoke ny the Prophets, our Paraclete and Comforter, into a unitive and impersonal spiritual force that connects the Son and the Father from whom the Spirit proceeds from in the modified form of the Creed.

Actual Tritheism is rare; the Eutychians, who believed that in the Incarnation the humanity of Christ dissolved into His divinity, thus resulting in compound nature, decolved into tritheism by the sixth century before disappearing. One of their proponents was the Hellenized Coptic philosopher John Philoponus. Eutyches, Eutychianism and Tritheism were of course anathema to the Coptic Orthodox Church and the other Oriental Orthodox churches, whose Christologt preserves the full humanity and divinity of Christ without change, confusion, separation or division, just like the Chalcedonian model, thus, for all practical purposes, Oriental Orthodox theology and contemporary Eastern Orthodox theology are equivalent, although there was a time in the fifth and sixth centuries when Oriental Orthodoxy actually positively influenced Eastern Orthodoxy, particularly the work of St. Severus of Antioch, whose hymn Ho Monogenes is part of the Second Antiphon of every Eastern Orthodox liturgy (although some EOs mistakenly claim it was written by Justinian, or other persons), and who was largely responsible for winning the theological battle against Apthartodocetism, a complex and in my opinion greatly misguided Christological belief favored by Justinian after he moved on from Theopaschitism.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Actual Tritheism is rare; the Eutychians, who believed that in the Incarnation the humanity of Christ dissolved into His divinity, thus resulting in compound nature, decolved into tritheism by the sixth century before disappearing.

Nice reference always wondered who the ancient Tri-theists were. Seventh Day Adventists in their previous theology are suppose to have fit that.


But that was a heresy I would have expected long ago, namely that people might want to interpret the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, in pretty much the same way as a many pantheons that feature or emphasize a 3 god Triad in the life of the believer. Where you have three separate temples to each member of the godhead. So a temple honoring God the Father, like you would have for Zeus. A temple for the Son, when you want to have an advocate or savior for your own needs and life, and a temple for the Holy Spirit when you are seeking wisdom, peace of mind etc.

 

[Andrewn]

Because the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and of course the Father is God, and their coequality and coeternality is an article of Christian faith, as is, very importantly, their consubstantiality, or coessentiality,

Amen.

because it becomes tritheism is if we say the three persons of the Trinity are not of one essence (homoousios),

What does the word "essence" mean to you? Do you think a lot of people misunderstand its meaning as divine nature making it akin of human nature, which allows individuality?

I like new translations of the Nicene Creed where homoousiosios is rendered "of one being."

 

[Andrewn]

Kind of a cool document I found that I'm linking to for people that love all the history and nitty gritty of the topic. The Evolution of the Doctrine of Trinity in Early Christianity: Logos Doctrine and the Egyptian Divine Metaphysics as the Sources of the Tertullian Doctrine of the Trinity

http://www.socinian.org/files/hillar_logos_trinity_thesis.pdf

This is a good article. It mostly concentrates on the contributions of Justin Martyr and Tertullian. If you're blogging about history of Trinity, you probably need to go next to the Church of Alexandria, especially Clement and Origen. And then Athanasius, of course, and so on. It's a big project.

Where can we see your blogs?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Where can we see your blogs?

lol I spend some much time here, I don't really have one.
I got a "Blog" here where I got some stuff.
The Ancient Paths Blog

I also am reposting my video projects (Working slowly on being a video Blogger). In fact that is why I logged in this morning. My best friend had the idea of expanding my topical material to make a wide "funnel" for my work (as far as attracting an audience where I can make a living off this stuff). Anyway I was was about to my video here of "Jia Jiang and the Power of Asking", on my Blog here (Which is largely becoming a video Blog).


"Jia is well known for his "Rejection Therapy experiment" where for a 100 days he made a unique request of strangers each day and documented the results. He did it overcome a childhood fear of rejection that was holding him back in life. But in the process of trying to desensitize himself towards rejection, also learned a few lessons about the nature of making requests."

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=676232896845424

I do have an old out of date Coptic Blog, named Addai of Alexandria (Addai was an old pen named I used from my earlier days in being in a church that came from the Assyrian Church of the East, it was a bit of an ironic Yin/Yang name when you know Church history and all the Nestorian stuff).

I will post a link there. It's old and out of date, but some cool stuff there. Some cool links (Very few of them seem to work now...), and my old wedding pics are there from my Big Fat Coptic Wedding. (my wife however divorced me in late 2015).


Here is my old Blog. Enjoy!

Addai of Alexandria

 

[Daniel Marsh]

I belive the Trinty is clearly taught in the prophesy given by Isaiah 9:6.
There is a very clear teaching here.

For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son(Jesus Christ of Nazareth)is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical Basis Trinity Bowman.pdf

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Wow those anti-Trinitarians have really flooded You-tube! I found a lecture on Philo by a professor, who appears to be a Presbyterian based on a google search (had to really dig for that). So will watch it after posting.

This oneness guy is very educational on the topic. He for example emphasizes the early Nicene fathers directly quoting Philo, or saying statements that directly reference his works without dropping his name. So that thing sort of thing is useful as far as finding a bread crumb trial goes. And of course talking about how the differences of an "allegorical Trinity" vs. what the early Latin Fathers are proposing etc.

They are only quoting using copycat nonsense they are useless when it comes to truth.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

thanks all for the sources to check out.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

thanks all for the sources to check out.

lol I have never had such an explosion of notifications as you going this thread, thanks

 

[The Liturgist]

Amen.


What does the word "essence" mean to you? Do you think a lot of people misunderstand its meaning as divine nature making it akin of human nature, which allows individuality?

I like new translations of the Nicene Creed where homoousiosios is rendered "of one being."

Well I worry about the change in language, because the Nicene doctrine is that while coessential, the three prosopa are hypostatically distinct. Of course, “of one being” is a valid translation, but I prefer to Latinize it as consubstantialis, because it a matter of Ephesian and Chalcedonian Christology that we are hypostatically consubstantial with Christ in respect to humanity, and Christ is consubstantial with the Father in respect to Divinity.

 

[The Liturgist]

lol I spend some much time here, I don't really have one.
I got a "Blog" here where I got some stuff.
The Ancient Paths Blog

I also am reposting my video projects (Working slowly on being a video Blogger). In fact that is why I logged in this morning. My best friend had the idea of expanding my topical material to make a wide "funnel" for my work (as far as attracting an audience where I can make a living off this stuff). Anyway I was was about to my video here of "Jia Jiang and the Power of Asking", on my Blog here (Which is largely becoming a video Blog).


"Jia is well known for his "Rejection Therapy experiment" where for a 100 days he made a unique request of strangers each day and documented the results. He did it overcome a childhood fear of rejection that was holding him back in life. But in the process of trying to desensitize himself towards rejection, also learned a few lessons about the nature of making requests."

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=676232896845424

I do have an old out of date Coptic Blog, named Addai of Alexandria (Addai was an old pen named I used from my earlier days in being in a church that came from the Assyrian Church of the East, it was a bit of an ironic Yin/Yang name when you know Church history and all the Nestorian stuff).

I will post a link there. It's old and out of date, but some cool stuff there. Some cool links (Very few of them seem to work now...), and my old wedding pics are there from my Big Fat Coptic Wedding. (my wife however divorced me in late 2015).


Here is my old Blog. Enjoy!

Addai of Alexandria

Very funny, Addai of Alexandria! You know to this day Copts and Assyrians absolutely hate each other; both are fine with the Syriac Orthodox, but between the Copts and Assyrians, relations are more than fraught.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

lol I have never had such an explosion of notifications as you going this thread, thanks

 

[Daniel Marsh]

read to here, can't think of anything to say at this time

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Very funny, Addai of Alexandria! You know to this day Copts and Assyrians absolutely hate each other; both are fine with the Syriac Orthodox, but between the Copts and Assyrians, relations are more than fraught.

Yeah without knowing that specifically I guessed it based on the Synaxarion readings where Nestorius comes up how many times? And the fact that Mar Nestorius is one of the official saints of the Church of the East.

Oh and reading the official writings of the former Pope Shenouda confirmed that.... especially in regards to Ecumenical dialogues.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yeah without knowing that specifically I guessed it based on the Synaxarion readings where Nestorius comes up how many times? And the fact that Mar Nestorius is one of the official saints of the Church of the East.

Oh and reading the official writings of the former Pope Shenouda confirmed that.... especially in regards to Ecumenical dialogues.

Well the Copts and the Assyrians have different stories about how the ecumenical dialogue fell apart, as one might imagine. The situation is acrimonious.

However interestingly enough Addai and Mari are extremely important Syriac Orthodox saints due to the church in India, and then we have the mysterious Maronites who are mostly interested in St. Sharbel among others, whose old pre-Vatican II liturgy looks mostly like the Syriac Orthodox liturgy, which makes sense, because they separated from the Syriac Orthodox church under disputed circumstance, but it also has some anomalous East Syriac material, such as the famed Anaphora of Peter (Sharar).

I did hear an amusing anecdote recently. HH Patriarch Aphrem II Karim of the Syriac Orthodox church on his first flight to the US was asked if he was a priest. He said “Yes, in the Syrian Orthodox Church.”

“Really, I didn’t know there were Christians in Syria. When did you convert?”

“It is difficult to recall exactly but I think two thousand years ago.”

Deadpanned it.

 

[The Liturgist]

Yeah without knowing that specifically I guessed it based on the Synaxarion readings where Nestorius comes up how many times? And the fact that Mar Nestorius is one of the official saints of the Church of the East.

Oh and reading the official writings of the former Pope Shenouda confirmed that.... especially in regards to Ecumenical dialogues.

Also the funniest part of the Synaxarion, which I heard while actually in a Coptic church, requiring emergency laughter stifling on my part, deals with the demise, and more importantly, the location of the demise, of Arius.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Also the funniest part of the Synaxarion, which I heard while actually in a Coptic church, requiring emergency laughter stifling on my part, deals with the demise, and more importantly, the location of the demise, of Arius.

Very interesting that. I remember having this argument/discussion with an ex-Catholic, originally it was over the Catholic position of most Protestants. He believed the Church saw them still as doomed (Counsel of Trent) while I had to point to what their actual position is now that came from Vatican II which is much more optimistic more along the lines of "separated brethren".

Anyway this guy, was in the Charismatic movement especially the Protestant end of it and we got into talking about anathemas. And he skeptically asked if there was anything like Biblical judgement that ever happened from something like that. And I had to cite the Arius case, and compare it to some stuff in the Bible, or even things like the death of Herod in Josephus.


But he really scoffed, but he did something I didn't expect, he looked up some ancient accounts most likely from a key word search, and found their was one ancient Greek historian who believed Arius was poisoned and scoffed at the supernatural interpretation of the event. Which I thought was very odd, but it did not completely surprise me. Because lots of the theology of Protestants coming from that movement comes from an Anabaptist antisacramental idea, which often ends up being attack against anything supernatural in the name of going against "superstition". But personally I see this as an instance of "double mindedness". Or a bit of self serving arbitrariness on the order of things like "Confirmation Bias", or other kinds of stuff from Social Psychology like Self Attribution theory.