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History of the Trinity

The Liturgist

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Wow those anti-Trinitarians have really flooded You-tube! I found a lecture on Philo by a professor, who appears to be a Presbyterian based on a google search (had to really dig for that). So will watch it after posting.



This oneness guy is very educational on the topic. He for example emphasizes the early Nicene fathers directly quoting Philo, or saying statements that directly reference his works without dropping his name. So that thing sort of thing is useful as far as finding a bread crumb trial goes. And of course talking about how the differences of an "allegorical Trinity" vs. what the early Latin Fathers are proposing etc.

Well, pretty much any kind of heathen and heretic has flooded YouTube, but there are also lots of Orthodox voices. Indeed I first found out about Fr. Lazarus el Antony on YouTube, and later saw him appear, to my delight, in the third and final episode of Extreme Pilgrim with Fr. Peter Owen-Jones, and my reaction was “Yes!”
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Well, pretty much any kind of heathen and heretic has flooded YouTube, but there are also lots of Orthodox voices. Indeed I first found out about Fr. Lazarus el Antony on YouTube, and later saw him appear, to my delight, in the third and final episode of Extreme Pilgrim with Fr. Peter Owen-Jones, and my reaction was “Yes!”

Yeah that reminds me, I need to get caught up on the "Lord of Spirits" podcast on Ancient Faith Radio.
 
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Andrewn

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Wow those anti-Trinitarians have really flooded You-tube! I found a lecture on Philo by a professor, who appears to be a Presbyterian based on a google search (had to really dig for that). So will watch it after posting.
I watched the video. He's not anti-Trinitarian but rather anti-Philo :).

This oneness guy is very educational on the topic. He for example emphasizes the early Nicene fathers directly quoting Philo, or saying statements that directly reference his works without dropping his name.
It is not by accident that that Trinitarian doctrine was initially promoted in the Church of Alexandria and that the major defender of the faith in Nicaea was St Athanasius of Alexandria.

People mistakenly attribute Arianism to Alexandria. it is true that Arius was an Alexandrian priest. But he was educated in Antioch. And Arianism was mostly promoted by Eusebius of Nicomedia. Both he and Arius were pupils of Lucian of Antioch.

Beside Antioch and Alexandria, the third major Christian center was, of course, Rome. There, Sabellianism was taught but, as far as I understand, it did not gain much popularity. St Athanasius found refuge in Rome when he was deposed by the emperor.
 
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The Liturgist

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One thing that is clear to me is that there is no single doctrine of the Trinity. There are at least 3 or 4 different ways to understand the Trinity. I say "at least" because there are many subdivisions of these basic types. So, when someone is described as "anti-Trinitarian" this does not mean much to me. Which understanding of the Trinity is he against?

https://trinities.org/blog/podcast-239-dr-beau-branson-on-the-monarchy-of-the-father-part-1/

While I agree there are diverse interpretations of the Trinity, I would propose that there are only two basic conceptualizations rooted in the Nicene Creed and Quincunque Vult (the Athanasian Creed) which are held by the mainstream churches whose members account for the majority of Christians*:

Firstly, we have the Western filioque concept, in which the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, which is in the numerical majority, owing to its use by the Roman Catholic Church and a minority of Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Churches, and by extension, nearly all Protestant churches that recite the Creed.

Secondly, we have the original Nicene concept, in which the Spirit proceeds from the Father; this is reverently adhered to by the Eastern Orthodox, who thought they had settled the matter with the Photian Synod, at which Rome agreed to drop the Filioque, but Rome changed its mind at a subsequent council. It is also strictly followed by the Oriental Orthodox and by the Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East I think St. Photius was in the right on this point; the canons of the Councils of Ephesus and Chalcedon prohibit modifying the Nicene Creed or introducing a new one. Interestingly a large number of the Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Churches do not use the Filioque, and I have read somewhere the Roman church considers the Filioque erroneous if recited in Greek, and thus its use in the Hellenic tongue is prohibited, presumably due to the subtle semantic nuances of that language compared to the more concise and exacting language of Virgil and Cicero. For these reasons I enthusiastically support the movement in Protestantism, which was active in the Episcopal Church and elsewhere a while back, to Drop the Filioque.

On this point I feel pedantically obliged to denote that the Athanasian Creed is neither Athanasian nor a Creed, but rather a Creedal canticle, and it exists in an Eastern Orthodox version that lacks the filioque, and this is included in A Psalter for Prayer, which is my favorite Psalter, the Coverdale corrected against the Septuagint, published by Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, whereas the Apostles Creed is a baptismal creed predating the Nicene Creed and could be regarded as “grandfathered in”; there are also several creedal hymns like Te Deum Laudamus, composed by Saints Ambrose and Augustine following the latter’s baptism, Ho Monogenes, which is sometimes attributed to Emperor Justinian but is almost certainly the work of St. Severus of Antioch, and the Eucharistic hymn Haw Nurone, composed by St. Jacob of Sarugh; it delights me to consider these three creedal hymns originated in three of the great Apostolic languages, Latin, Greek and Syriac. I should seek out a creedal hymn originally written in Coptic, Armenian, Georgian or Ge’ez to square the circle (any suggestions on the Coptic or Armenian front @dzheremi and @ArmenianJohn ? There is the Coptic confiteor ante communionem chanted by the priest, although this is very similiar to a common Eastern Orthodox confiteor ante communionem, and I am not sure if hieratic chants should count as creedal hymns.

However, as someone who wants ecumenical reconciliation, provided we get a Pope like Benedict XVI, who ought not to have resigned, I am what Metropolitan Kallistos Ware calls a “filioque dove” rather than a “filioque hawk.” The filioque had legitimate origins - there was a nasty quasi-Unitarian heresy that erupted in Spain, where the Greek canons of Ephesus and Chalcedon may not have been known, perhaps in part due to the tendency of Rome to define its own canons outside of the ecumenical synods relied on by the Greek Church. Thus the bishops implemented the filioque in a bid to suppress it, which worked, even though it was obviously the wrong tool for the job. However, the filioque, if annotated in parentheses so as to clarify that it merely referred to the Biblical fact that Christ sent the Holy Spirit into the world as our Paraclete (just as the Creed earlier declares how the Spirit sent Christ into the world by miraculously impregnating our most glorious Lady, the Theotokos and Ever Virgin Mary), this would fix the theological problem, since the status of God the Father as the unoriginate Source of the Godhood, the literal Divine Essence with Whom God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one, and from Whom the uncreated and coequal Son is begotten and the uncreated and coequal Spirit proceeds, would be upheld.

*Divergent views may exist among those members due to poor catechesis and poor preaching; I was left confused about the exact nature of the doctrine of the trinity in my childhood, specifically, how the three divine persons came to be, since neither the mainline schools (usually Methodist or Presbyterian in my childhood, for reasons of tradition or convenience), nor the LCMS parochial school I attended was interested in preaching about Trinitarian theology or explaining the doctrines of the unoriginate Father, the Son begotten before all ages, the eternal procession of the Spirit, or indeed the concept of eternity itself**.

Rather, the churches were more interested in preaching sermons on moral theology, in some cases loosely connected to the lectionary, where one was used, and the Religious Education component of my parochial curriculum was more focused in teaching sola fide and the law vs. gospel, and oddly, an Antiochene-literal interpretation of the Pentateuch, which was presented in an enjoyable manner, so I did not mind that, and the pastor during , although I did like that school a lot; I did a year in public school and it was horrifying in comparison).

In my case it was actually an Anglican church on Trinity Sunday that finally clarified the matter for me in my adolescence, but I always believed in the Trinity and had an intuitive grasp on it, for example, I understood it was three divine persons who were one Godhead, and that Jesus Christ as the Son of God was fully God and fully Man, and that the Holy Ghost was also God; the one thing some people in religious authority, at my school or at one or more of the churches I attended, did right in my childhood which prevented me from forming a completely heterodox interpretation of the Trinity, or rejecting it, was using the phrases “God the Father”, “God the Son” and “God the Holy Ghost.” Coincidentally, Holy Ghost was how we usually referred to the Holy Spirit in my youth, in part because older hymnals and service books were still in service in many of the churches I attended; I don’t think the LCMS church where I attended parochial school switched to the Blue Hymnal until 1990 or 91, and the Methodist church I attended was still using the 1964/65 Book of Hymns and Book of Worship until 1994.

** A lack of education on the concept of eternity gave me a terrible fear of eternity, whether that consisted of Heaven, Hell or annhilation, which I overcame in part due to an early encounter with the Eastern Orthodox, but that is a subject for another thread.
 
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The Liturgist

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I watched the video. He's not anti-Trinitarian but rather anti-Philo :).


It is not by accident that that Trinitarian doctrine was initially promoted in the Church of Alexandria and that the major defender of the faith in Nicaea was St Athanasius of Alexandria.

People mistakenly attribute Arianism to Alexandria. it is true that Arius was an Alexandrian priest. But he was educated in Antioch. And Arianism was mostly promoted by Eusebius of Nicomedia. Both he and Arius were pupils of Lucian of Antioch.

Beside Antioch and Alexandria, the third major Christian center was, of course, Rome. There, Sabellianism was taught but, as far as I understand, it did not gain much popularity.

It’s actually a myth that Antioch was a hotbed of proto-Arianism. It is worth noting that St. Jerome, St. Epiphanius and many other fathers identified statements in the works of Origen Adimantius, who was as Alexandrian as they come, which could be interpreted as proto-Arian.

Actually, Cardinal Henry Newman wrote a very poor quality article in which he basically declared Antioch the fount of all heresies, and Alexandria a bastion of ecclesiastical virtue. This is really very much not the case; Antioch gave us, among many other great theologians, St. Ignatius, St. John Chrysostom, his best friend Mar Theodore the Interpreter (Theodore of Mopsuestia), and St. Severus, who despite being Oriental Orthodox, had a huge influence on Chalcedonian Christology through his work on a refined Theopaschite theology, which proved much more compelling and enduring than the now obscure Apthartodocetism model that Emperor Justinian came to favor after an earlier period of Theopaschitism.

Sabellianism did originate in Rome but it was condemned as a heresy in the second or third century. Many heresies originated in Rome and had large followings, including Marcionism, Valentinism, and Montanism but the Church of Rome was extremely conservative and anathematized all of them. As the largest city in the Empire with probably the largest total Christian population, Rome naturally was home to the greatest number of heretical sects; in this respect it was like London, Sydney, Los Angeles, New York, Toronto or Berlin, but it was not a bastion of heresy like say, Sedona or Ojai.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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He's not anti-Trinitarian but rather anti-Philo :).

Oh this is the guy I mentioned who is a professor, and seems to be a Presbyterian.
I enjoyed that lecture a lot, good back round info although not directly on topic.

The previous anti-Philo and Oneness guy I wont link to because most boards around here have a TOS that forbids linking to a "Christian" who is against the Trinity and other Nicene Creed doctrines.


I did however find this Blog post that discusses and critiques a book the pastor in question wrote attacking the Trinity through Philo. (Written from an obvious scholarly Nicene Protestant point of view).

A rebuttal to R. Euresti’s “Philo’s Trinity”
 
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So was Philo a pre-Jesus Jew who was already starting to figure out the Trinity?


Philo was a Hellenic Jew, basically a Jew who was raised with Greek as his primary language and also a fan of Greek philosophy since he was raised in the Egyptian city of Alexandria, and Egyptian culture got their dose of Greek Culture when Alexander the Great conquered it in the Deuterocanonical era. And the city of Alexandria especially since that was named after him, was his capitol city etc.


Philo lived during the time of the New Testament. Philo had a kind of Modalistic Trinity.

Modalistic Monarchianism - Wikipedia


Philo is noteworthy for being the first to use Trinity to describe his idea of Yahweh. He also used a Triangle illustration as well.

The previous mentioned article touches on why Philo Trinity is different than that of the Church Fathers.

A rebuttal to R. Euresti’s “Philo’s Trinity”


This has some obvious similarities to the Christian notion of the Godhead, although there are some important differences to. The Christian God is both transcendent (beyond Creation) and also imminent. The Stoics had trouble conceiving of a God being incarnated or suffering for our sins etc. that really went against their philosophy.
 
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This guy in his presentations really wants to bash the Church Fathers for being Hellenized and bringing a pagan corrupt pseudo-Christianity into existence

Couldn't that argument backfire with the use of Logos in John. Isn't that a "Hellenistic" idea incorporated into scripture? In other words, hadn't Greek notions of Logos already worked their way into Judaic thinking via Philo by the time the Gospel of John is written?
 
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Couldn't that argument backfire with the use of Logos in John. Isn't that a "Hellenistic" idea incorporated into scripture? In other words, hadn't Greek notions of Logos already worked their way into Judaic thinking via Philo by the time the Gospel of John is written?

I think he would deny that and there are many good reasons for that. The Jews by and large resisted Hellenization. The translation of the Septuagint is the big exception to that rule where they wanted their sizable Greek speaking minority to be able to read and hear the scriptures in their own tongue (Something they would later curse in the times of the Talmud because certain passages from that work seemed to be the source of Christian doctrines like the Virgin birth that they denied).


But the Greek was the personification of the non-koshur gentile, and had a culture that was in many at odds with their one. They fought such Hellenization in the the Book of the Maccabees. And the historian Josephus mentions that only a minority of his people could speak and write Greek. Unlike Aramaic and other eastern tongues it was in a language family far removed from their own, so many like Josephus found it difficult to learn.
 
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Andrewn

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Firstly, we have the Western filioque concept, in which the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son, which is in the numerical majority, owing to its use by the Roman Catholic Church and a minority of Sui Juris Eastern Catholic Churches, and by extension, nearly all Protestant churches that recite the Creed. Secondly, we have the original Nicene concept, in which the Spirit proceeds from the Father; this is reverently adhered to by the Eastern Orthodox,
The problem, as I see it, is not the Filioque per se but the Trinitarian understanding behind it. In my experience, people do not discuss the Trinity because they know the discussion leads to disagreements. But, when I joined the CF, I participated in Trinitarian discussions. I was flabbergasted that most people, and I mean theologically knowledgeable people, believed in what I considered to be Tritheism and I was quite disappointed. Later, I did some reading and discovered that what I considered Tritheism is actually called the Social concept of the Trinity. This is a simplistic, and thus widespread theory, and it is behind the Filioque. And far too many people consider it the proper understanding of the Trinity.

the status of God the Father as the unoriginate Source of the Godhood, the literal Divine Essence with Whom God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are one, and from Whom the uncreated and coequal Son is begotten and the uncreated and coequal Spirit proceeds, would be upheld.
Yes, this is the Eastern concept, which I can understand and agree with.

I understood it was three divine persons who were one Godhead, and that Jesus Christ as the Son of God was fully God and fully Man, and that the Holy Ghost was also God; the one thing some people in religious authority, at my school or at one or more of the churches I attended, did right in my childhood which prevented me from forming a completely heterodox interpretation of the Trinity, or rejecting it, was using the phrases “God the Father”, “God the Son” and “God the Holy Ghost.”
I think this is the Social concept. It sounds like 3 Gods. But since it was your childhood belief and you grew out of it, let's not get into this :).
 
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Andrewn

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Oh this is the guy I mentioned who is a professor, and seems to be a Presbyterian.
I enjoyed that lecture a lot, good back round info although not directly on topic.
Yes, I understood that. It's a good lecture. A little slow, but I listened to it in < 30 minutes at 1.5 x :).
 
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Andrewn

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Couldn't that argument backfire with the use of Logos in John. Isn't that a "Hellenistic" idea incorporated into scripture? In other words, hadn't Greek notions of Logos already worked their way into Judaic thinking via Philo by the time the Gospel of John is written?
I used to believe that the Logos was a "Hellenistic" idea until I listened to Michael Heiser. The Logos idea is actually quite Jewish as the following article from the Jewish Encyclopedia also explains:

MEMRA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
 
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I used to believe that the Logos was a "Hellenistic" idea until I listened to Michael Heiser. The Logos idea is actually quite Jewish as the following article from the Jewish Encyclopedia also explains:

MEMRA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

The last section of that entry is ambiguous as to the Hellenistic influence, which is probably the most one can say. The Targums, for instance, are not early enough to ensure their interpretation of the divine Word isn't free of Greek influence. Obviously, some notion of the divine Word predates, but I don't see how one can claim no influence at all. Certainly, one could argue the use of Logos in John is a purely Judaic concept, but the waters are too muddy to support such an argument, I think. I'll have to try and find something from Michael Heiser on this.
 
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I used to believe that the Logos was a "Hellenistic" idea until I listened to Michael Heiser. The Logos idea is actually quite Jewish as the following article from the Jewish Encyclopedia also explains:

MEMRA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

In Chinese philosophy, the Tao is also understood this way.
 
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Andrewn

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In Chinese philosophy, the Tao is also understood this way.
One of my most treasured books is Christ the Eternal Tao by Hieromonk Damscene. I'm looking forward to reading it, again.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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Kind of a cool document I found that I'm linking to for people that love all the history and nitty gritty of the topic.


The Evolution of the Doctrine of Trinity in Early Christianity: Logos Doctrine and the Egyptian Divine Metaphysics as the Sources of the Tertullian Doctrine of the Trinity

http://www.socinian.org/files/hillar_logos_trinity_thesis.pdf
 
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Pavel Mosko

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One of my most treasured books is Christ the Eternal Tao by Hieromonk Damscene. I'm looking forward to reading it, again.

Yeah I've cited or quoted that work a few times for Buddhists and other people who are interested in Christianity.
 
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