Historicity of the change of the Sabbath Commandment

[bbbbbbb]

No, "With God" makes it synergism

Hardly. If it is impossible with men, then it is utterly and completely impossible without God. It simply can't happen with any amount of human hope or effort.

 

[HIM]

Hardly. If it is impossible with men, then it is utterly and completely impossible without God. It simply can't happen with any amount of human hope or effort.

Maybe reread the quote you are responding to. What you say doesn't make sense as a response to it. Take care.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Maybe reread the quote you are responding to. What you say doesn't make sense as a response to it. Take care.

The quote which you previous posted reads as follows:

"No, "With God" makes it synergism."

Am I correct in understanding that you interpret the passage as Jesus teaching that God needs to do His bit for salvation, leaving man to shoulder his own bit?

 

[FredVB]

Am I correct in understanding that you interpret the passage as Jesus teaching that God needs to do His bit for salvation, leaving man to shoulder his own bit?

I would say our response is needed, when God does what we need God to do. We may be enabled to repent, but it is needed that we will repent, with the faith that includes this, in coming to Christ. Obedience is needing God enabling that, but for us to do.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I would say our response is needed, when God does what we need God to do. We may be enabled to repent, but it is needed that we will repent, with the faith that includes this, in coming to Christ. Obedience is needing God enabling that, but for us to do.

Thanks. I understand your thinking and it makes great sense. Many, if not most, Christians share your position. However, in that view God is the author of our faith, but not the finisher, or perfecter.

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

As you can see in the passage above, the writer begins with a call to the Christians to specific action with the clear assumption that it is an act of their will. Thus, your position seems to be quite sound. However, he follows it up with that curious phrase, implying clearly that it is Jesus who has done the work, start to finish.

There is also the similarly curious pair of verses in Philippians 2:12-13.

 

[HIM]

Thanks. I understand your thinking and it makes great sense. Many, if not most, Christians share your position. However, in that view God is the author of our faith, but not the finisher, or perfecter.

Hebrews 12:1 Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us, 2 fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

As you can see in the passage above, the writer begins with a call to the Christians to specific action with the clear assumption that it is an act of their will. Thus, your position seems to be quite sound. However, he follows it up with that curious phrase, implying clearly that it is Jesus who has done the work, start to finish.

There is also the similarly curious pair of verses in Philippians 2:12-13.

No because verse 1 says let us lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.
Through the placing of His Law in our hearts and minds He has perfected us we whom He has sanctified through His blood. But if we are sinning willing after the receiving this knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Only certain looking forward to judgement and fiery indignation.
He has given us His Spirit. In Him we live, move and have our being. For It is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. But we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Pressing toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Making straight paths for our feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. Following peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace, the gift of the sanctification from His Blood and the Law of God in our hearts; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [us], and thereby we be defiled; Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven. So let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No because verse 1 says let us lay aside every encumbrance and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us.
Through the placing of His Law in our hearts and minds He has perfected us we whom He has sanctified through His blood. But if we are sinning willing after the receiving this knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Only certain looking forward to judgement and fiery indignation.
He has given us His Spirit. In Him we live, move and have our being. For It is He that works in us both to will and do His good pleasure. But we must work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Pressing toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Making straight paths for our feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. Following peace with all [men], and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace, the gift of the sanctification from His Blood and the Law of God in our hearts; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble [us], and thereby we be defiled; Lest there [be] any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears. See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more [shall not] we [escape], if we turn away from him that [speaketh] from heaven. So let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.

I will not attempt to address your entire post, but will start with the initial point. Let's look at the passage you quoted, without reference.

Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.

9 Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation. . .

Please note the pronouns used in this passage. The writer does not use first person pronouns, but third person pronouns until verse nine. He is writing about "they", "them", and "those", not "you". He is talking about some other group of people - those for whom it is impossible to be brought back to repentance. Given the fact that the author is writing to Hebrew believers it is apparent that he is describing those Hebrews who rejected Jesus Christ and crucified Him. They continue to crucify the Son of God all over again, subjecting him to public disgrace. He uses Old Testament metaphors to describe them - land that produces thorns and thistles, which in the end will be burned.

He then goes on to assure his audience that he is not writing about them, because he (and others - we) are convinced of better things - things that have to do with salvation.

Many folks use this passage loosely to support an equally loose doctrine that a Christian can "lose" their salvation and then regain it at some future time. That is patently false. The writer states emphatically, that it is impossible for those who have rejected Jesus Christ to come to repentance again.

 

[HIM]

I will not attempt to address your entire post, but will start with the initial point. Let's look at the passage you quoted, without reference.

I did not quote Hebrews six at all. Maybe you should reread the post and address it. Take care.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I did not quote Hebrews six at all. Maybe you should reread the post and address it. Take care.

You are correct. You did not quote any scripture at all to support your position. You seem to believe that your mishmash of theology is sufficient to rebut scripture, which I did quote.

Here is precisely what I based my reply on -

"But if we are sinning willing after the receiving this knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. Only certain looking forward to judgement and fiery indignation."

Whether you think so or not, it appears, for all intents and purposes, to be based on the passage in Hebrews 6. Do you have any other scriptural basis for your statement?

 

[HIM]

You are correct. You did not quote any scripture at all to support your position. You seem to believe that your mishmash of theology is sufficient to rebut scripture, which I did quote.

You are mistaken. Chapters 11, 10 and 12 of Hebrews was quoted in context which refutes your stance. And then Philippians 2 was also quoted showing you took that chapter out of context.

Maybe next response you can forgo the insults and just answer the points shown through the context. Thanks.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You are mistaken. Chapters 11, 10 and 12 of Hebrews was quoted in context which refutes your stance. And then Philippians 2 was also quoted showing you took that chapter out of context.

Maybe next response you can forgo the insults and just answer the points shown through the context. Thanks.

No insults. The fact of the matter is that you did not quote any passages of scripture in your post. You assuredly paraphrased the segment of Hebrews 6, substituting first person plural pronouns for the second person plural pronouns of the actual passage. Paraphrasing and quoting are two completely different matters.

In my post I provided the actual quote from Hebrews 6 in its context and you determined not to respond to my post, but chose to point out to me the fact that you did not quote scripture in your earlier post, to which I completely agreed.