Historicity of the change of the Sabbath Commandment

bugkiller · Mar 30, 2016

jason1 said:
I'm sorry, but that is plain stupid

Keeping the sabbath is not bondage - IT IS FREEDOM

How?

You get to take a whole day off of working at anything (a form of slavery). So when you rest and enjoy life how in the world is that bondage? Crazy man...

I have every day off, sorry about you.

bugkiller

Sophrosyne · Mar 30, 2016

Yes if you are "bound" by Law to "keep the Sabbath" then you are in "boundage" (or bondage).

jason1 · Mar 31, 2016

Sophrosyne said:
Yes if you are "bound" by Law to "keep the Sabbath" then you are in "boundage" (or bondage).

Mat_11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Mat 7:23 "And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’

Sophrosyne · Mar 31, 2016

jason1 said:
Mat_11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
Mat 7:23 "And then I shall declare to them, ‘I never knew you, depart from Me, you who work lawlessness!’

And you think his yoke is the Law eh? Jesus never associated his yoke with keeping the Mosaic Law.

I guess Peter lied when he said this at the council of Jerusalem.

Acts 15:6-12New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8 And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11 But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”

12 All the people kept silent, and they were listening to Barnabas and Paul as they were relating what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles.

To put it bluntly.... Peter is talking to YOU as you are putting US to the test here. Now unless you can explain to me what yoke Peter was talking about that is NOT the Mosaic Law then the yoke MUST be the Law.

jason1 · Mar 31, 2016

Sophrosyne said:
And you think his yoke is the Law eh? Jesus never associated his yoke with keeping the Mosaic Law.

HE IS THE LIVING WORD. What does that mean? He is torah in the flesh. He came to magnify the law. He said to keep His commandments (same as His Father's)

Open your eyes so your heart can see the truth.

bugkiller · Mar 31, 2016

jason1 said:
HE IS THE LIVING WORD. What does that mean? He is torah in the flesh. He came to magnify the law. He said to keep His commandments (same as His Father's)

Open your eyes so your heart can see the truth.

Not according to JN 15:10.

bugkiller

Sophrosyne · Apr 1, 2016

jason1 said:
HE IS THE LIVING WORD. What does that mean? He is torah in the flesh. He came to magnify the law. He said to keep His commandments (same as His Father's)

Open your eyes so your heart can see the truth.

I'm sorry but Ignoring Paul... and now Peter isn't going to please Jesus at all considering he sent both of them to teach people which commandments to keep.

BobRyan · Apr 2, 2016

Page 1 of this thread - including the opening post - - is about the "historicity" of the efforts to change the LAW of God --

Oct 8, 2015 #1

Efforts to make that change either rely on the Pope or else on the 7th point in this list -- while still admitting to the Bible truth of the first 6 points --

1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
2. That all mankind was obligated by the TEN commandments in the OT and to this very day.
3. That the seventh day as the Sabbath was Saturday the seventh day of the week from Gen 2:1-3 until NT times - including at the cross.
4. That the Ten Commandments are the moral Law of God
5. That the moral law of God is written on the heart under the New Covenant
6. that the Ten Commandments as the moral law of God are in no way opposed to grace and the Gospel.
7. That the Sabbath commandment can rightly be BENT by man-made-tradition to point to week-day-1 after the cross.

I agree with 6 out of 7 as listed above - and yet many who post against God's TEN commandments object to all of the points listed above. And sometimes they will even go on to complain that so many of the points above are in agreement with my position and opposed to the war-against-the-Ten-Commandments position.

We see that in these cases --

The Baptist Confession of Faith,
the Westminster Confession of Faith ,
D.L. Moody,
R.C Sproul,
Matthew Henry,
Thomas Watson
Eastern Orthodox Catechism
The Catholic Catechism

BobRyan · May 18, 2016

When "Sola scriptura" is faced with catholic complaints as in the quote found in the OP - ... expect the subject to be derailed.

=================================
The Sabbath Commandment Ex 20:8-11 says that the "seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD Thy God".

And in Ex 16 we find these words "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath".

In Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath is the 7th day of creation week - and according to Genesis 2 it is then that the Sabbath is "Sanctified", blessed, set apart.

The Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith, D.L. Moody and many others admit that the "Sabbath was made for mankind" (Mark 2:27) and it began in Eden.

So then when - or how - was the Sabbath Commandment changed? How was the obligation, sanctity, blessing of the 7th day transferred to week-day-1??

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=============================================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

One Catholic poster on this section of the board describes it this way.

Open Heart said: ↑
It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).

I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine.

And how does the Bible define the "Solemnity" - the blessed, sanctified and binding obligation of the Sabbath -- in actual scripture.

Gen 2
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 20: 8, 11
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So how is that the Law of God is up for "edit" for change? For taking one of the Commandments - and "repointing it" so that now "another day" is blessed, sanctified, and made holy??

Indeed the RCC claims to have the authority to do that.

Possibly one more reason why the "sola scriptura" model of Acts 17:11 and Mark 7:6-13 gets some push back on certain threads by those who agree with the RCC's right to do such things.

BABerean2 · May 18, 2016

BobRyan said:
So how is that the Law of God is up for "edit" for change? For taking one of the Commandments - and "repointing it" so that now "another day" is blessed, sanctified, and made holy??

Indeed the RCC claims to have the authority to do that.

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Shut Door Documents from the Estate of Ellen G. White
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/shutdoor.html

.

BobRyan · May 18, 2016

memorable texts to remember about Acts 20, Col 2, Gal 3

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

A ONE TIME meeting - for the sake of Paul's departure that STILL does not refer to week-day-1 as "The Lord's Day" or as a weekly day of preaching and worship. By contrast we have Acts 18:1-4 "EVERY SABBATH" for preaching the gospel to GENTILES - and to Jews.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

An example of NOT condemning eating OR drinking or remembering God's Ten-Commandment creation-Sabbath day to keep it holy. Rather Col 2 condemns the "commandments of men" - (as is so carefully avoided in the quotes we often see from Col 2)

Col 2 is about making up a rule and judging others of being guilty of sin because they differ with you, even if that invented rule is related to a Bible command.

But Col 2 is not an attempt by Paul to delete the scriptures. Rather Paul condemns the idea of making stuff up that is not in scripture at all - where the only source/authority is "man".

Col 2:18 Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflatedwithout cause by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.

Col 2
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh. (KJV)

Col 2
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as,
21 Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch! 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men?
23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.(NASB)

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Gal 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.
Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
Gal 3:9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.
Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

You can see the part of Gal 3 that you need to avoid -- you don't quote it.

Notice "the details"

Gal 3
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

1. In Gal 3 as in Romans 3 Paul makes the case that the Law applies to ALL mankind regardless of Jew or Gentile and that by that Law ALL are condemned as sinners - ALL need a savior.

2. As Paul points out in Gal 3 the Law of God does not "Save" it is not a "kind of savior" that used to work in the OT but now doesn't work so well. It never functioned as "savior".

3. Paul points out in Romans 7 and in Romans 10 that a person is born-again "Saved" at the moment that "faith comes". RND makes a good point about Heb 11 providing a great example of the giants of the faith - for whom "Faith had come" and they were "found pleasing to God" as a result of that Gospel transaction in their lives.

This is the same gospel event Paul is identifying in Gal 3 for all mankind. All mankind is lost - kept under bondage to sin and under condemnation of the law UNTIL we come to Christ and accept salvation. This was true in OT AND in NT. No change.

As Paul argues in Gal 3:7 the Gospel "was preached to Abraham".

As Paul argues in Heb 4:1 "the Gospel was preached to US just as it was to them".

As Paul argues in Gal 1:6-11 there has been only ONE Gospel in all of time!

Even in the NT "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4

And in Heb 8:6-10 that same Jeremiah 31:31-33 LAW of God - the moral law that defines sin - is "Written on the mind and heart" under the NEW Covenant made in Heb 8 with the "House of ISRAEL"

Paul shows a change in our relationship to the LAW that condemns all mankind under sin - taking place when we are converted... only when we are converted... which is when that law is written on the heart.

"Sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 - even in the NT

Rom 8
He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.

Rom 6
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? ... 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. ...
.12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13 and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14 For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

BABerean2 · May 18, 2016

BobRyan said:
This is the same gospel event Paul is identifying in Gal 3 for all mankind. All mankind is lost - kept under bondage to sin and under condemnation of the law UNTIL we come to Christ and accept salvation. This was true in OT AND in NT. No change.

Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Heb_7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Shut Door Documents from the Estate of Ellen G. White
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/shutdoor.html

.

BobRyan · May 18, 2016

BABerean2 said:
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
.

Covenant known to the Bible? or ??

The one in the Bible has the "LAW of God written on the heart and mind" Jer 31:31-33 in both OT and NT Heb 8:6-10. The LAW of God - known to Jeremiah and his readers.

Were you thinking of a lawless covenant? Not known in the Bible at all??

Or were you only thinking of Ellen White and the shut door??

BABerean2 · May 18, 2016

BobRyan said:
Were you thinking of a lawless covenant? Not known in the Bible at all??

Or were you only thinking of Ellen White and the shut door??

I was mainly thinking of the Judaisers of the Apostle Paul's time and their modern descendants who promote the "yoke" of bondage.
There are a great many today who fall into that category.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
(This could not be describing circumcision, because it was something they were able to bear.)

Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

1Jn 3:22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
1Jn 3:23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
1Jn 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
Gal 3:18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
Gal 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

Gal 4:24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

Gal 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

Gal 4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Gal 4:30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

Gal 4:31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Shut Door Documents from the Estate of Ellen G. White
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/shutdoor.html

.

Meowzltov · May 19, 2016

BobRyan said:
When "Sola scriptura" is faced with catholic complaints as in the quote found in the OP - ... expect the subject to be derailed.

=================================
The Sabbath Commandment Ex 20:8-11 says that the "seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD Thy God".

And in Ex 16 we find these words "Tomorrow IS the Sabbath".

In Gen 2:1-3 the Sabbath is the 7th day of creation week - and according to Genesis 2 it is then that the Sabbath is "Sanctified", blessed, set apart.

The Baptist Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession of Faith, D.L. Moody and many others admit that the "Sabbath was made for mankind" (Mark 2:27) and it began in Eden.

So then when - or how - was the Sabbath Commandment changed? How was the obligation, sanctity, blessing of the 7th day transferred to week-day-1??

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=============================================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

One Catholic poster on this section of the board describes it this way.

And how does the Bible define the "Solemnity" - the blessed, sanctified and binding obligation of the Sabbath -- in actual scripture.

Gen 2
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 20: 8, 11
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So how is that the Law of God is up for "edit" for change? For taking one of the Commandments - and "repointing it" so that now "another day" is blessed, sanctified, and made holy??

Indeed the RCC claims to have the authority to do that.

Possibly one more reason why the "sola scriptura" model of Acts 17:11 and Mark 7:6-13 gets some push back on certain threads by those who agree with the RCC's right to do such things.

Yaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwn Same old same old from you. Things that have been refuted time and again.

If you are sola scriptura, when are you bothering to quote from non-Biblical sources like the catechism commentary, anyway? Even Catholics don't consider it authoritative.

BobRyan · May 19, 2016

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=====================================================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

One Catholic poster on this section of the board describes it this way.

Open Heart said: ↑
It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).

I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine.

And how does the Bible define the "Solemnity" - the blessed, sanctified and binding obligation of the Sabbath -- in actual scripture.

Gen 2
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 20: 8, 11
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So how is that the Law of God is up for "edit" for change? For taking one of the Commandments - and "repointing it" so that now "another day" is blessed, sanctified, and made holy??

Open Heart said: ↑
It is simply called transferrence. Nothing more. Nothing less. The church has the authority to do this.

Indeed the RCC claims to have the authority to do that.

Open Heart said:
Yaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwn Same old .

That is the sort of scholarly catholic input we can count on. And frankly much-expected.

Thanks for sharing that.

The point remains.

Open Heart said:
Even Catholics don't consider it authoritative.

Sadly for that comment - you already admitted that the church did what your own historian said they did.

Open Heart said: ↑
It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).

I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine.

There are only so many ways you can find to "blame me" for what you admit to - and what your own RCC historians state.

bugkiller · May 19, 2016

jason1 said:
HE IS THE LIVING WORD. What does that mean? He is torah in the flesh. He came to magnify the law. He said to keep His commandments (same as His Father's)

Open your eyes so your heart can see the truth.

Nope!!!

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. John 1:17

bugkiller

Meowzltov · May 20, 2016

BobRyan said:
That is the sort of scholarly catholic input we can count on. And frankly much-expected.

Oh puhleeze. You can't keep repeating the same stuff ad nauseum and expect people (Catholic OR Protestant) to keep replying to you as if it were your first time. Actually we expect you to acknowledge our arguments, which refute yours. And you never do this.

BobRyan · May 20, 2016

One Catholic Author - of a commentary on the Baltimore Catechism - after Vatican II describes it this way

=====================================================

Leo Trese in his book "The Faith Explained" -- commentary on the Baltimore Catechism after Vatican II -

The Faith Explained (an RC commentary on the Baltimore catechism post Vatican ii) states on Page 242 that
====================begin short summary
changing the Lord's day to Sunday was in the power of the church since "in the gospels ..Jesus confers upon his church the power to make laws in his name".

page 243

"Nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day From Saturday to Sunday. We know of the change only from the tradition of the Church - a fact handed down to us...that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many Non-Catholics, who say that they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and Yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"

====================================== begin expanded quote
. (from "The Faith Explained" page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day - which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church
================================================

One Catholic poster on this section of the board describes it this way.

Open Heart said: ↑
It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).

I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine.

And how does the Bible define the "Solemnity" - the blessed, sanctified and binding obligation of the Sabbath -- in actual scripture.

Gen 2
2 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts. 2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. 3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

Ex 20: 8, 11
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

So how is that the Law of God is up for "edit" for change? For taking one of the Commandments - and "repointing it" so that now "another day" is blessed, sanctified, and made holy??

Open Heart said: ↑
It is simply called transferrence. Nothing more. Nothing less. The church has the authority to do this.

Indeed the RCC claims to have the authority to do that.

Open Heart said:
Yaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwwwn Same old .

That is the sort of scholarly catholic input we can count on. And frankly much-expected.

Thanks for sharing that.

The point remains.

Open Heart said:
Even Catholics don't consider it authoritative.

Sadly for that comment - you already admitted that the church did what your own historian said they did.

Open Heart said: ↑
It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).

I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine.

There are only so many ways you can find to "blame me" for what you admit to - and what your own RCC historians state.

Open Heart said:
Oh puhleeze.

No - that is actual true -- you only have a very limited number of ways to blame me for you say as in this example --

" It is the transferring of the solemnity of the Sabbath to the Lord's Day (Sunday).
I know you don't like it that we did this. That's fine."

AND there are ZERO ways for you to blame me for what your own catholic historian says on that same subject.

The point remains.

I know you don't like it.. That's fine.

BABerean2 · May 21, 2016

BobRyan said:
Or were you only thinking of Ellen White and the shut door??

The question should be... Is the door shut or is it open?

The Millerites and the early SDA could not seem to make up their minds, based on the documents from the Estate of Ellen G. White.

First they claimed the door was shut and later they claimed the door was open.

Shut Door Documents from the Estate of Ellen G. White
http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/shutdoor.html

Act 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

(CJB) So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat.

(ESV) Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.
.

Historicity of the change of the Sabbath Commandment

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