historicist vs futurist

Contemporary Historicist

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The current pope is a figurehead emptied of his authority as a king. The little authority he has as the head of a large organization is on the decline.He is about as powerful as the English Queen. Both of their declines are connected to the shattered statue in Daniel 7
 
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Contemporary Historicist

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one fold, and one shepherd -
Jesus asked peter to feed His sheep - three times

We do need Peter like leadership in our gatherings. Men who God chooses to lead, Christ chose Peter, all people Catholic and Protestant agree that Peter's office as the head apostle was not any man's decision. We need men chosen by God, men whose faults are evident to all. This keeps them ever humble and able to lead God's people.
 
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Contemporary Historicist

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Absolutely, I believe that One Direction is Heaven. Don't forget that the Little Horn lost its authority forever. Although the Catholic Church will rule with Christ as part of His body any primacy it had was taken away in Daniel 7 under a special ruling from the Ancient of Days (God the Father). Please read a short article I wrote on this subject before replying. this way you are familiar with my thoughts on this subject.
A NEW LOOK AT THE LITTLE HORN
FaithWriters.com-Christian Prophecy - A NEW LOOK AT THE LITTLE HORN
 
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victorinus

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The fourth beast is the European theocratic system. The marriage of King and the Church. How can you know my thoughts without reading what I have written?
you don't know the 4th beast and therefore you don't know the little horn which is saladin
 
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victorinus

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How did Saladin come up amongst the other horns? Saladin never left the middle east. Who do you say the beast and the other horns are?
I have all this in my blog - islam is the 4th beast and the ten horns are the ten dynasties - saladin arrives after the first three and starts the fourth
 
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victorinus

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Interesting so in the statue iron legs was Rome and you are saying that Iron and Clay feet was and is Islamic kingdoms.
have not spent much time on the statue
-but-
I believe the four beasts are -
babylon
greece
rome
islam
 
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Sab

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Like every last detail in the entire accoiunt. Each and every action attributed to "the king of the south" was actually committed by one of the Ptolemies, a dynasty that ruled out of Alexandria in Egypt. And each and every action that was attributed to "the king of the north" was actually committed by one of the Selucids, a dynasty that ruled out of Antioch in Syria. This war between "the king of the south" and "the king of the north" spanned a number of generations, and it took place over a period of approximately one hundred and fifty years.

And then verse 36 describes a condition which it says will be "even to the time of the end." Then the account goes on, and nothing even resembling the events of the rest of that chapter has ever occurred.
Actually the events in Dan 11:36-45 have happened and followed on immediately after the fall of the kings of the north and south of Dan 11:5-35.
Antiochus was defeated by the Romans in 189 BC. Both the Seleucid and Ptolemic empires were swallowed up by the Roman empire in the first century BC. Hence Dan 11:36 THE KING. Verses 11:36-39 are fulfilled by the Roman Empire. The empire was divided in 395 (see last part of verse 39.) After the west fell the empire continued in the east for nearly 1000 years. In 7th century a new king of the south appeared and attacked the capital (Constantinople) of what was left of the roman empire and took the middle east and Africa. This corresponds to the fifth trumpet of Rev 9. Then in the 11th century another king of the north appeared like a whirlwind. Within 20 years of the Battle of Manzikert the Seljuks controlled almost the entire Anatolian peninsula while the Ottomans fulfilled the rest of Dan 11:40-45. The Turkish empires correspond to the 6th trumpet of Rev 9. The Seljuq empire was almost identical in area to tge Seleucid empire so the appelation "king of the north" was entirely accurate while the Arab caliphate covered much of the former Ptolemaic empire.
 
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Sab

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I don't see how they both refer to rome -
are you suggesting the byzantine empire is an extension of the fourth beast?
The term "byzantine" was coined in the 18th century by western historians. The Byzantines called themselves the Roman empire, which in fact they were.
 
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Sab

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I'm a historicist but from about 20 years ago started seeing some alternative views to the traditional historicist position. Ie I believe mystery Babylon is Constantinople not rome and can show from history how she fulfilled all the prophecies uo to Rev 18:21 which is still future.
Also Rev 13. That is a tricky chapter but i think the first beast corresponds to the Roman empire which fell in 1453, the beast that followed it was Turkish and that had 2 horns Seljuq and Ottoman.
I've also tweaked the traditional view of the 6 seals and place the opening of the red horse with rule of Marcus Aurelius, as pax Romana ceased in his day.
Also i think the traditional historicist view fell flat with the first five bowls of wrath as they focused far too much on western europe. I think the first bowl is a reference to the Black death, the 4th may be Tamerlane's swathe of devastation - he obliterated Sardis. And the 5th the fall of Constantinople in 1453. The 6th is trad historicist - the decline of the ottoman empire.
 
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Biblewriter

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Actually the events in Dan 11:36-45 have happened and followed on immediately after the fall of the kings of the north and south of Dan 11:5-35.
Antiochus was defeated by the Romans in 189 BC. Both the Seleucid and Ptolemic empires were swallowed up by the Roman empire in the first century BC. Hence Dan 11:36 THE KING. Verses 11:36-39 are fulfilled by the Roman Empire.

In saying this, you are completely neglecting several points of significant importance.

First, from verse 36 on, not a single detail has been fulfilled in such precise accuracy that anyone has ever claimed that its very accuracy proves it could not have been written before the events in question took place.

Second, you are neglecting the time span between the middle of verse 35 and the beginning of verse 36, “until the time of the end.” You are imagining that verse 36 comes immediately after the beginning of verse 35.

Third, you are bringing in a new dimension into the prophecy, something that had not even been part of the subject up to that time. All of the prophecy up to this point had involved the remnants of the Empire of Alexander the great. And now you are injecting a completely different power into the interpretation.

And finally, you are suddenly changing the subject from the behavior of individual leaders of dynasties to the behavior of Empires in general.

The empire was divided in 395 (see last part of verse 39.)

Here, you have changed three details of the prophecy. First, the king in question would divide “the land.” This ALWAYS means the land of Israel. But you have changed it to the Roman Empire. And second, you have ignored the detail that HE would “divide the land.” If “the king” were indeed “the Roman Empire,” this empire did not divide itself, but rather was divided. And third, you neglected the detail that this division would be done “for gain.” Instead of reflecting gain, this division was exceedingly costly to the Roman Empire.

After the west fell the empire continued in the east for nearly 1000 years. In 7th century a new king of the south appeared and attacked the capital (Constantinople) of what was left of the roman empire and took the middle east and Africa. This corresponds to the fifth trumpet of Rev 9.

Here, you are changing the meaning of “the king of the south.” You are changing a power that originated from Egypt to a power that originates from what is now Saudi Arabia. And in claiming that this was a fulfillment of the fifth seal of Revelation 9, you are ignoring almost every detail of that prophecy.

Then in the 11th century another king of the north appeared like a whirlwind. Within 20 years of the Battle of Manzikert the Seljuks controlled almost the entire Anatolian peninsula while the Ottomans fulfilled the rest of Dan 11:40-45. The Turkish empires correspond to the 6th trumpet of Rev 9. The Seljuq empire was almost identical in area to tge Seleucid empire so the appelation "king of the north" was entirely accurate while the Arab caliphate covered much of the former Ptolemaic empire.

Here, you seem to be combining two competitive empires into a single unit, beginning as the Seljuks and continuing as the Ottomans. The only thing that these empires had in common was that they both professed an adherence to Islam.

It is true that the Arab caliphates covered much of the same area as the Selucid Empire, but it is not accurate to say that the areas were “almost identical.”

While the Ottomans indeed conquered Egypt and Libya, they did not subdue Ethiopia, and Edom, Moab, and Ammon (which together comprise modern Jordan) did not escape out of their hands.

And again, in claiming that the Turkish empires fulfilled the sixth trumped of Revelation 9, you are ignoring almost every detail of that prophecy.

But this is typical of Historicism. Everything that the Holy Spirit said in the prophetic scriptures is reduced to murky analogies, with nothing being assumed to actually mean what it says.
 
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Sab

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It is true that the Arab caliphates covered much of the same area as the Selucid Empire, but it is not accurate to say that the areas were “almost identical.”
What I said was the Seljuq Empire was almost identical to the Seleucid Empire. Look at some maps.
I said the Arab caliphate corresponded to the Ptolemaic Empire.
 
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Sab

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Here, you seem to be combining two competitive empires into a single unit, beginning as the Seljuks and continuing as the Ottomans. The only thing that these empires had in common was that they both
Really? The Seljuks and the Ottomans were not competitive, and the fact they were both Turkish and that the Ottoman empire was only named after a local tribal leader who came from the earlier Turkish invasion of Anatolia completely escapes your notice. You have a very sorry grasp of the history of Judaea.
 
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Sab

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Third, you are bringing in a new dimension into the prophecy, something that had not even been part of the subject up to that time. All of the prophecy up to this point had involved the remnants of the Empire of Alexander the great. And now you are injecting a completely different power into the interpreta
What happened to the remnants of Alexander's empires from the first century BC until the present time? Oh that's right... the Roman empire happened, and the Arab caliphate happened and the Turkish empire happened. I didnt inject a new power into the prophecy. Someone more powerful than I did that.
 
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