Historical Moses and Transfiguration

[juvenissun]

The Torah is about this world and living this life. Hence, the afterlife is not mentioned nor is it important.

Is the Torah only Scripture for Judaism?

 

[danny ski]

Is the Torah only Scripture for Judaism?

No it's not. But. It is THE Scripture.

 

[cloudyday2]

No mistakes. Theology is theology and history is history.
I do not know if Genesis is historically true. But I do know it must be theologically true.
Since nobody knows the historical fact, so, it still has a higher probability to believe it is historically true than not.

What specifically in Genesis must be historically true to make Christian theology work? There is a lot of stuff in there about Jacob's speckled goats and so forth that I assume is not essential.

 

[Cuddles333]

Of course Moses is a Historical figure. The writing about him in Wikipedia just shows that the secular world is very desperate to hide the light under a bushel. There may be stories about the man that are intended to embellish him, such as the story from Sargon the Great (1800 B.C.) about when he was a newborn, but these stories do not negate his historical existence. The Exodus can be verified by studying secular history along with the Bible. For instance, the destruction of Jericho has now been very well thought to have taken place around 1500 B.C., if we trace time backwards, we will find that the Pharoah who resisted the Israelites leaving Egypt and is said by the Bible to have drowned in the Red Sea while pursuing them, would have been Amenhotep. Some of the Egyptian writings about him: "The bull who conquers the lands." "He who inspires great terror." He had only one child. A son who died in infancy. Amenhotep reigned (In the lower chronology) from 1526 B.C. to 1506 B.C. and in higher chronology (1526 B.C. to 1546 B.C.) There are no real accurate dates kept by the Egyptians when it went back this far. Before his funeral, an unusual mask was placed over his face and his burial place was moved a number of times. A magician made the claim that he served under his reign for 21 years. This testimony, I think was to resolve any doubts in the Egyptian people that the person buried in such a way, was really Amenhotep. Therefore, it is logical that the destroyers of Jericho, would have been the Israelites. According to Geologists, it would not have been an earthquake alone to have made the Jericho walls fall the way they did. It would also have taken a miracle.

 

[cloudyday2]

Something that has always seemed suggestive to me is the monotheism of Akhenaten. Akhenaten moved the capital into the desert where he could worship the Aten. The Aten was symbolized by the sun. Yahweh was also symbolized by the sun. Some of the psalms in the Bible seem to be identical to Egyptian psalms to the Aten. Maybe Moses was Akhenaten. Maybe some of the Egyptian Aten worshipers fled to Israel... just thinking out loud.

 

[Aelred of Rievaulx]

Of course Moses is a Historical figure. The writing about him in Wikipedia just shows that the secular world is very desperate to hide the light under a bushel. There may be stories about the man that are intended to embellish him, such as the story from Sargon the Great (1800 B.C.) about when he was a newborn, but these stories do not negate his historical existence. The Exodus can be verified by studying secular history along with the Bible. For instance, the destruction of Jericho has now been very well established to have taken place around 1550 B.C.-1555 B.C., if we trace time backwards, we will find that the Pharoah who resisted the Israelites leaving Egypt and is said by the Bible to have drowned in the Red Sea while pursuing them, would have been Amenhotep. Some of the Egyptian writings about him: "The bull who conquers the lands." "He who inspires great terror." He had only one child. A son who died in infancy. Amenhotep reigned (In the lower chronology) from 1526 B.C. to 1506 B.C. Before his funeral, an unusual mask was placed over his face and his burial place was moved a number of times. A magician made the claim that he served under his reign for 21 years. This testimony, I think was to resolve any doubts in the Egyptian people that the person buried in such a way, was really Amenhotep. Therefore, it is logical that the destroyers of Jericho, would have been the Israelites. According to Geologists, it would not have been an earthquake alone to have made the Jericho walls fall the way they did. It would also have taken a miracle.

This is exactly how history does not work... Nothing about this is historically rigorous or analytical even in the slightest. According to just about every single archaeologist who has published anything about the Levant during the Bronze Age, there was no battle of Jericho and the story was probably invented out of cloth. There's no evidence Amenhotep had anything to do with an Exodus event.

 

[danny ski]

This is exactly how history does not work... Nothing about this is historically rigorous or analytical even in the slightest. According to just about every single archaeologist who has published anything about the Levant during the Bronze Age, there was no battle of Jericho and the story was probably invented out of cloth. There's no evidence Amenhotep had anything to do with an Exodus event.

Correct. There's no empirical evidence that Exodus occurred.

 

[mindlight]

The miracle is yet to come. And that miracle would be an explanation for breaking the prohibition against summoning the dead.

Elijah never died and Moses was assumed according to Jewish tradition which is affirmed by the Transfiguration. So there was no summoning of the dead here.

 

[mindlight]

Funny logic.
Moses is needed, but is not needed as a real person.
How about Abraham, Issac and Jacob? or Joshua and Samuel? Do they need to be real?
How about King David? Does he "need" to be real?

No wonder the Catholic doctrine is a mess today.

Most Catholics believe these guys were literal historical figures and especially outside the Western world. There is also a gulf between the actual teachings of the church and the Catholics share of Liberal theologians.

 

[mindlight]

Taking the Garden of Eden as an example, it does not need to be literal IMO. The story of original sin can simply be a way of saying that all humans have a tendency to want to be our own gods. Christianity solves this original sin by providing communion with Jesus (or whatever). Taking everything literal just makes you easy pickings for atheist apologists.

Easy Pickings for Atheist apologists- ha ha - good one!

People who hold a high regard for literal historical statements and characters in scripture like myself are far less worried by such apologists than are Liberals who have already bought into atheist assumptions about reality - such as naturalism and in the modern Western context rationalism and liberalism also.

 

[mindlight]

Where's the evidence that Christ walked on water, except that the New Testament says that he did?

When you say the NT is the only evidence you might be missing the fact that meant a boat load of 12 disciples - 10 of who would be martyed testifying to such a fact. 12 witnesses to a crime would definitely get a conviction.

 

[mindlight]

Correct. There's no empirical evidence that Exodus occurred.

Except the empirical existence of the Jewish people and the history of Hebrew habitation in Israel following the Exodus but not before it.

 

[mindlight]

As everybody knows, some of the gospels describe how Peter, James, and John went to a mountaintop where they saw Jesus meet Moses and Elijah.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfiguration_of_Jesus

Many Christians believe that portions of the Bible are simply religious fiction. The Exodus story is commonly dismissed as fiction, because the God it portrays is not palatable to modern tastes. On the other hand, most Christians consider the Transfiguration story to be historical. The Transfiguration implies that Moses was historical.

(1) If you think the Exodus story is literally true, how do you rationalize God's behavior with the "God is love" expectations?

(2) If you don't think the Exodus story was literally true, then what did actually happen? Who was Moses? When did Moses live? What did Moses actually do? ...

Why cannot you see Exodus as an act of saving love by God? Those who suffered were those who stubbornly rejected God. In that respect what is the difference between the sentiment here and the NT book of Revelation. Why exactly do you not like Moses? Not sure this dislike is sufficient reason to make everything you disagree with into symbols, metaphors and multifaceted allegories.

 

[mindlight]

Moses is dead. Whoever says otherwise is wrong. And there's no accepted tradition in Judaism that says he did not die.

Moses died as affirmed in the Torah. The claim is that he was later assumed to heaven.

The Assumption of Moses is the Jewish book cited. But of course the liberals have redated it. Biblically Jude 9 and the Transfiguration story affirm it and various Early church fathers also appear familiar with it.

 

[Cuddles333]

This is exactly how history does not work... Nothing about this is historically rigorous or analytical even in the slightest. According to just about every single archaeologist who has published anything about the Levant during the Bronze Age, there was no battle of Jericho and the story was probably invented out of cloth. There's no evidence Amenhotep had anything to do with an Exodus event.

Unless a person is determined to to dismiss the exodus of the Israelites from Egypt, of course any evidence for it is also going to be dismissed. The evidence that I presented (as any for this event) is deductive reasoning from very strong circumstantial evidence. We have as accurate a date as is presently possible in trying to figure from non-existing year datings by the Egyptians, a fairly accurate dating of the destruction of Jericho, an impossible position of the destroyed walls...unless a miracle occurred, a feared Pharoah with writings supporting this fear, same Pharoah with a dead firstborn son, a supposedly dead Pharoah with an unusual face mask and moving resting places. To me, this is a pretty sound argument for the Exodus.

 

[nightflight]

Do you ever think that having Christian faith is like trying to hold five basketballs under water?

 

[cloudyday2]

Why cannot you see Exodus as an act of saving love by God? Those who suffered were those who stubbornly rejected God. In that respect what is the difference between the sentiment here and the NT book of Revelation. Why exactly do you not like Moses? Not sure this dislike is sufficient reason to make everything you disagree with into symbols, metaphors and multifaceted allegories.

A few weeks ago I thought it might be nice to read a Bible that my mother had given me so I could tell her that I was reading it. What did I open the Bible to? - Exodus 11:4-5

4 So Moses said, “This is what the Lord says: ‘About midnight I will go throughout Egypt. 5 Every firstborn son in Egypt will die, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sits on the throne, to the firstborn son of the female slave, who is at her hand mill, and all the firstborn of the cattle as well.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+11:4-5&version=NIV

Literally these were the first words I saw upon opening that Bible, and I felt totally disgusted. It was as if God was telling me "don't read the Bible anymore, because that's not who I am". (Sometimes I wonder if God might exist even though I labeled myself as an atheist.)

How can anybody read that verse and not be disgusted? God deliberately hardens that heart of Pharaoh so that he can punish the whole nation of Egypt - down to the animals?

 

[ChetSinger]

A few weeks ago I thought it might be nice to read a Bible that my mother had given me so I could tell her that I was reading it. What did I open the Bible to? - Exodus 11:4-5

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+11:4-5&version=NIV

Literally these were the first words I saw upon opening that Bible, and I felt totally disgusted. It was as if God was telling me "don't read the Bible anymore, because that's not who I am". (Sometimes I wonder if God might exist even though I labeled myself as an atheist.)

How can anybody read that verse and not be disgusted? God deliberately hardens that heart of Pharaoh so that he can punish the whole nation of Egypt - down to the animals?

I see it as payback for what the Egyptians had earlier done to the Israelites: enslaving them and then murdering every son that was born to them.

And if you read the entire account of the plagues, Pharaoh had already hardened his own heart, repeatedly, before it says God began hardening it. That is, God gave him, and Egypt, multiple chances before He gave up on them.

My thoughts, anyway.

Btw, I'm responding to you as if you're taking the account literally, as I do. Out of curiosity, does that mean you're considering the genre of Exodus to be history?

 

[cloudyday2]

I see it as revenge against what the Egyptians had earlier done to the Israelites: enslaving them and then murdering every son that was born to them. It was payback time.

And if you read the entire account of the plagues, Pharaoh had already hardened his own heart, repeatedly, before it says God began hardening it. That is, God gave him, and Egypt, multiple chances before He gave up on them.

My thoughts, anyway.

Another message of this story is that all the people of Egypt and its animals were property of Pharaoh. Of course this would have been normal morality for ancient cultures. Wives and children were often treated as property - just like cattle. The head of the household often had the right to kill his own wife and children with no questions asked. But why would God play by the moral rules of the bronze age - unless the whole thing is merely a bronze age fable? So God kills all these first born Egyptians to punish the leader - after God deliberately hardened the heart of that leader to give God the opportunity to show that He was mightier than the Egyptian gods. Ugh.

 

[cloudyday2]

The way the story should go is like this: The Egyptians starts oppressing the Jewish guest workers. God appears to Pharaoh and softens his heart. All of Egypt converts to Judaism and lives happily ever after. Later God sends Jewish missionaries throughout the world. Isn't that a better story?