Historic premillenialism or amillennialism?

[5solas]

.......It's frustrating, to say the least, to not understand what I believe. I can see why so many people consider themselves "pan-mil"! It's certainly easier to not worry about it and not claim any one view! ......

I prefer the expression "pre-parousian"

 

[Imblessed]

I prefer the expression "pre-parousian"

hmmm, I do like it....it's got a nice ring to it!!!!

 

[R.J.S]

thank you for that link,

Although I keep saying that I am amil--I have to relunctanty admit that maybe, just maybe I am leaning towards pre-mill post-trib.

I say relunctantly because I grew up only hearing about the dispensational pre-trib pre-mill beliefs and when I realized that was wrong, I just wanted to distance myself from that whole belief system totally. I went from that to full preterism to amillenialism---anything to say I'm not pre-mil. I feel like a rebellious teenager who must relunctantly admit that maybe, just maybe the parents might have something right!


I'm definately NOT dispensational anymore, BUT--as I read the bible and try to make amillenialism fit, there are things that just don't work for me. I think that Partial Preterism is a very valid system(the idea that the destruction of Jeruselem was a BIG event, and that it ties into Matt. 24). However part preterism and amillenialism doesn't mesh up.

I'm rambling on and on here, but I think you may see where I am going. I keep finding myself thinking back to one of Spurgeon's sermons--the one where he talks about the Ressurections and that he believes there will be 2 --the just and the unjust. For some reason, every single time I contemplate the whole idea of the end times and what view is most consistent biblically, that sermon pops into my head. I just cannot stop thinking about it. (I guess this is what 'conviction' feels like ).

OK OK OK, I think I'll just make myself feel better and admit it...............

I'm Partial-preterist, pre-millenial, post-tribulational and non-Dispensational (for now)

I know how you feel...I am in fellowship with the so-called "Brethren", you know the group wiht Darby at the healm...so eschatology debates are lively. Like you I read that Spurgeon sermon (The First Ressurection I presume?) and now I do not look at amillenialism in the same light. So I sit an uncomfortable historic premillenialist surrounded by dispensationalists and one G. H. Lang adherent (Partial rapture & millenial exclusion {bizzar believe me!}).

 

[R.J.S]

you will like it! (at least I hope so)

By the way I just would like to recommend to you another excellent book (I think it's not completely off topic to recommend it here in this thread):

Israel of God ​

Author: O. Palmer Robertson


Description:Robertson offers a fascinating look at the questions: Who is the Israel of God today? and What is their relationship to the Promised Land, and to Israel’s worship, lifestyle, and future?

"Palmer Robertson provides a fresh and brilliant insight into the content of God’s promises of redemption to Old Testament Israel and their relevance to the Christian church. This is an exciting read." - R. C. SPROUL "



Dr. Robertson has addressed this perennial, much disputed topic in a fashion that is not only both incisive and engaging but also, to this reader at least, thoroughly convincing. My hope is that this book will serve to unite Christians today in affirming his concluding propositions." - RICHARD B. GAFFIN







​

O. PALMER ROBERTSON (B.D., Westminster Theological Seminary; Th.M., Th.D., Union Theological Seminary, Virginia) is Professor of Old Testament at Knox Theological Seminary and Professor of Theology at African Bible College, Malawi. He is author of several books, including The Christ of the Covenants and Psalms in Congregational Celebration.




​

​

​

Publisher: P & R Publishing
ISBN#: 0875523986
Binding: Paperback
Page Count: 212

Scripture saturated, this book is for anyone who wants to understand what role Israel plays in prophesy today. Especially helpful in explaining the land promises made in Scripture. Your eyes will be opened.
Availablility: Usually ships the same business day.

Regular Price: $12.99 Our Price: $9.99

What does it conclude? does it conclude that the Land is a type of heaven?

 

[5solas]

What does it conclude? does it conclude that the Land is a type of heaven?

At the end of the book there are 12 propositions made by the author, propositions 4, 5 and 10 will answer your question:

Proposition #1: The church of Jesus Christ, embracing the elect of God from both Jewish and Gentile backgrounds, is a part of the messianic kingdom of Christ, even though the church does not exhaust the dimensions of Christ's kingdom.
Propostition #2: The modern Jewish state is not a part of the messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ. Even though it may be affirmed that this particular civil government came into being under the sovereignty of the God of the Bible, it would be a denial of Jesus' affirmation that his kingdom is "not of this world order" (John 18:36) to assert that this government is a part of his messianic kingdom.
Proposition #3: It cannot be established from Scripture that the birth of the modern state of Israel is a prophetic precursor to the mass conversion of Jewish people.
Proposition #4: The land of the Bible served in a typological role as a model of the consummate realization of the purposes of God for his redeemed people that encompasses the whole of the cosmos. Because of the inherently limited scope of the land of the Bible, it is not to be regarded as having continuing significance in the realm of redemption other than its function as a teaching model.
Proposition #5: Rather than understanding predictions about the "return" of "Israel" to the "land" in terms of geopolitical re-establishment of the state of Israel, these prophecies are more properly interpreted as finding consummate fulfillment at the "restoration of all things" that will accompany the resurrection of believers at the return of Christ (Acts 3:21; Rom. 8:22-23).
Proposition #6: No reestablished priesthood and no reinstituted sacrificial system ever will be introduced that would serve to provide a proper supplement to the currently established priesthood of Jesus Christ and his final sacrifice.
Proposition #7: No worship practices that place Jewish believers in a category different from Gentile believers can be a legitimate worship-form among the redeemed people of God.
Proposition #8: The future messianic kingdom shall include as citizens on an equal basis both Jewish and Gentile believers, even as they are incorporated equally into the present manifestation of Christ's kingdom.
Proposition #9: The future manifestation of the messianic kingdom of Christ cannot include a distinctively Jewish aspect that would distinguish the peoples and practices of Jewish believers from their Gentile counterparts.
Proposition #10: The future messianic kingdom will embrace equally the whole of the newly created cosmos, and will not experience a special manifestation of any sort in the region of the "promised land."
Proposition #11: Gentile believers should diligently seek a unified ecclesiastical fellowship with Jewish believers, rejoicing when Jewish believers are regrafted into Christ and consequently bring immeasurable blessing to the world.
Proposition #12: Jewish believers should diligently seek a unified ecclesiastical fellowship with Gentile believers, rejoicing in God's purpose of bringing additional Jews to faith in Jesus as their Messiah by moving them to jealousy through the blessing of Gentile believers.

In conclusion, the promised messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ has come. Its arrival marks the focal point of all human history. This kingdom auf the Messiah is continuing to realize its fullness as elect Jews and Gentiles are added to the community of the redeemed in every generation. The same kingdom will be manifested in its final form with the return of Chist the King in all his glory.
The Jewish people have always played a role in the coming of the messianic kingdom. They will continue to have a vital part in the Messiah's reign throughout the present age and into eternity. Yet not all Jews will experience the blessing of participation in this kingdom, for "they are not all Israel who are of Israel" (Rom. 9:6 NKJV). It will always be a remnant that is saved.
The present state of Israel is not a concrete realization of the messianic kingdom of Jesus Christ. Furthermore, a day should not be anticipated in which Christ's kingdom will manifest Jewish distinctives either by its location in "the land," or by its constituency, or by its distincively Jewish practices.
Instead, this present age will come to a climactic conclusion with the arrival of the final phase of the kingdom of the Messiah. At that time, all eyes will see the King in his glory. Every knee will bow, and every tongue will declare that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. The kingdoms of this world will become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever.

(cited from pages 193-196)

 

[Imblessed]

I know how you feel...I am in fellowship with the so-called "Brethren", you know the group wiht Darby at the healm...so eschatology debates are lively. Like you I read that Spurgeon sermon (The First Ressurection I presume?) and now I do not look at amillenialism in the same light. So I sit an uncomfortable historic premillenialist surrounded by dispensationalists and one G. H. Lang adherent (Partial rapture & millenial exclusion {bizzar believe me!}).

The First Ressurection--yes, that's the one. I had pretty much settled on amillenialism until I read that.

"an uncomfortable historic premill" That's the feeling! If I claim premillenialism, "everyone" automaticallly assumes I'm dispensational, but if I claim any type of preterism, I get labeled as heretic! And I can't exactly claim amill anymore, because of the whole ressurection thing. Stuck between a rock and a hard place.

G.H. Lang? ok, I'll bite. What is millenial exclusion? or partial rapture for that matter?

 

[R.J.S]

G.H. Lang? ok, I'll bite. What is millenial exclusion? or partial rapture for that matter?

Hooked and now realing in...http://www.christianforums.com/t1781571-partial-rapture-and-millenial-exclusion.html. A friend of mine holds it.

 

[tomeo]

Some of you are forgetting the fact that Ireneaus was a disciple of Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of John. Ireneaus believed that the temple would be rebuilt. Hippolytus, wasn't a "mid-millennialist", he was a PRE-millennialist, meaning Christ would return BEFORE the millennium.

 

[5solas]

Some of you are forgetting the fact that Ireneaus was a disciple of Polycarp, who in turn was a disciple of John. Ireneaus believed that the temple would be rebuilt. Hippolytus, wasn't a "mid-millennialist", he was a PRE-millennialist, meaning Christ would return BEFORE the millennium.

Do you want to prove that John taught premillennialism or do you want to prove how fast it goes to deviate from biblical teaching?

 

[Dave Taylor]

Tomeo,
Instead of making claims based of Irenaeus, Polycarp, and Hippolytus...why not provide historical and verifiable citations from them and let their own writings speak for themselves?

Otherwise, anyone could say, "Some of you are fogetting the fact that Irenaeus was a well-renown Elephant hunter who partnered with Polycarp to launch an expediention to the North American Contient in search of Wooly Mammoths who are beleived to be distance cousins of Hippolytus."

Claims are great; everyone can make them; but to take the time to show the source that the claim originated from sometimes can be difficult; and sometimes can be impossible. (I'll find the mammoth expededition sources and post them soon, promise!!)

 

[FreeinChrist]

Irenaeus, Book V, against Hersies:

Especially Since All Creation Waits for This, and God Promises It to Abraham and His Seed.

1. Inasmuch, therefore, as the opinions of certain [orthodox persons] are derived from heretical discourses, they are both ignorant of God's dispensations, and of the mystery of the resurrection of the just, and of the [earthly] kingdom which is the commencement of incorruption, by means of which kingdom those who shall be worthy are accustomed gradually to partake of the divine nature (capere Deum272 ); and it is necessary to tell them respecting those things, that it behoves the righteous first to receive the promise of the inheritance which God promised to the fathers, and to reign in it, when they rise again to behold God in this creation which is renovated, and that the judgment should take place afterwards. For it is just that in that very creation in which they toiled or were afflicted, being proved in every way by suffering, they should receive the reward of their suffering; and that in the creation in which they were slain because of their love to God, in that they should be revived again; and that in the creation in which they endured servitude, in that they should reign. For God is rich in all things, and all things are His. It is fitting, therefore, that the creation itself, being restored to its primeval condition, should without restraint be under the dominion of the righteous; and the apostle has made this plain in the Epistle to the Romans, when he thus speaks: "For the expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature has been subjected to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope; since the creature itself shall also be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the sons of God."273

2. Thus, then, the promise of God, which He gave to Abraham, remains stedfast. For thus He said: "Lift up thine eyes, and look from this place where now thou art, towards the north and south, and east and west. For all the earth which thou seest, I will give to thee and to thy seed, even for ever."274 And again He says, "Arise, and go through the length and breadth of the land, since I will give it unto thee; "275 and [yet] he did not receive an inheritance in it, not even a footstep, but was always a stranger and a pilgrim therein.276 And upon the death of Sarah his wife, when the Hittites were willing to bestow upon him a place where he might bury her, he declined it as a gift, but bought the burying-place (giving for it four hundred talents of silver) from Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite.277 Thus did he await patiently the promise of God, and was unwilling to appear to receive from men, what God had promised to give him, when He said again to him as follows: "I will give this land to thy seed, from the river of Egypt even unto the great river Euphrates."278 If, then, God promised him the inheritance of the land, yet he did not receive it during all the time of his sojourn there, it must be, that together with his seed, that is, those who fear God and believe in Him, he shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For his seed is the Church, which receives the adoption to God through the Lord, as John the Baptist said: "For God is able from the stones to raise up children to Abraham."279 Thus also the apostle says in the Epistle to the Galatians: "But ye, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of the promise."280 And again, in the same Epistle, he plainly declares that they who have believed in Christ do receive Christ, the promise to Abraham thus saying, "The promises were spoken to Abraham, and to his seed. Now He does not say, And of seeds, as if [He spake] of many, but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ."281 And again, confirming his former words, he says, "Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore, that they which are of faith are the children of Abraham. But the Scripture, fore-seeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, declared to Abraham beforehand, That in thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham."282 Thus, then, they who are of faith shall be blessed with faithful Abraham, and these are the children of Abraham. Now God made promise of the earth to Abraham and his seed; yet neither Abraham nor his seed, that is, those who are justified by faith, do now receive any inheritance in it; but they shall receive it at the resurrection of the just. For God is true and faithful; and on this account He said, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth."283

• Chapter XXXIII.-Further Proofs of the Same Proposition, Drawn from the Promises Made by Christ, When He Declared that He Would Drink of the Fruit of the Vine with His Disciples in His Father's Kingdom, While at the Same Time He Promised to Reward Them an Hundred-Fold, and to Make Them Partake of Banquets. The Blessing Pronounced by Jacob Had Pointed Out This Already, as Papias and the Elders Have Interpreted It.
  

1. For this reason, when about to undergo His sufferings, that He might declare to Abraham and those with him the glad tidings of the inheritance being thrown open, [Christ], after He had given thanks while holding the cup, and had drunk of it, and given it to the disciples, said to them: "Drink ye all of it: this is My blood of the new covenant, which shall be shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of the fruit of this vine, until that day when I will drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."284 Thus, then, He will Himself renew the inheritance of the earth, and will re-organize the mystery of the glory of [His] sons; as David says, "He who hath renewed the face of the earth."285 He promised to drink of the fruit of the vine with His disciples, thus indicating both these points: the inheritance of the earth in which the new fruit of the vine is drunk, and the resurrection of His disciples in the flesh. For the new flesh which rises again is the same which also received the new cup. And He cannot by any means be understood as drinking of the fruit of the vine when settled down with his [disciples] above in a super-celestial place; nor, again, are they who drink it devoid of flesh, for to drink of that which flows from the vine pertains to flesh, and not spirit.

2. And for this reason the Lord declared, "When thou makest a dinner or a supper, do not call thy friends, nor thy neighbours, nor thy kinsfolk, lest they ask thee in return, and so repay thee. But call the lame, the blind, and the poor, and thou shall be blessed, since they cannot recompense thee, but a recompense shall be made thee at the resurrection of the just."286 And again He says, "Whosoever shall have left lands, or houses, or parents, or brethren, or children because of Me, he shall receive in this world an hundred-fold, and in that to come he shall inherit eternal life."287 For what are the hundred-fold [rewards] in this word, the entertainments given to the poor, and the suppers for which a return is made? These are [to take place] in the times of the kingdom, that is, upon the seventh day, which has been sanctified, in which God rested from all the works which He created, which is the true Sabbath of the righteous, which they shall not be engaged in any earthly occupation; but shall have a table at hand prepared for them by God, supplying them with all sorts of dishes.....

• Chapter XXXIV.-He Fortifies His Opinions with Regard to the Temporal and Earthly Kingdom of the Saints After Their Resurrection, by the Various Testimonies of Isaiah, Ezekiel, Jeremiah, and Daniel; Also by the Parable of the Servants Watching, to Whom the Lord Promised that He Would Minister.
  

1. Then, too, Isaiah himself has plainly declared that there shall be joy of this nature at the resurrection of the just, when he says: "The dead shall rise again; those, too, who are in the tombs shall arise, and those who are in the earth shall rejoice. For the dew from Thee is health to them."299 And this again Ezekiel also says: "Behold, I will open your tombs, and will bring you forth out of your graves; when I will draw my people from the sepulchres, and I will put breath in you, and ye shall live; and I will place you on your own land, and ye shall know that I am the Lord."300 And again the same speaks thus: "These things saith the Lord, I will gather Israel from all nations whither they have been driven, and I shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the sons of the nations: and they shall dwell in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. And they shall dwell in it in peace; and they shall build houses, and plant vineyards, and dwell in hope, when I shall cause judgment to fall among all who have dishonoured them, among those who encircle them round about; and they shall know that I am the Lord their God, and the God of their fathers."301 Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham; and for this reason, that we may know that He who in the New Testament "raises up from the stones children unto Abraham,"302 is He who will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall be saved from all the nations, Jeremiah says: "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that they shall no more say, The Lord liveth, who led the children of Israel from the north, and from every region whither they had been driven; He will restore them to their own land which He gave to their fathers."303

2. That the whole creation shall, according to God's will, obtain a vast increase, that it may bring forth and sustain fruits such [as we have mentioned], Isaiah declares: "And there shall be upon every high mountain, and upon every prominent hill, water running everywhere in that day, when many shall perish, when walls shall fall. And the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, seven times that of the day, when He shall heal the anguish of His people, and do away with the pain of His stroke."304 Now "the pain of the stroke" means that inflicted at the beginning upon disobedient man in Adam, that is, death; which [stroke] the Lord will heal when He raises us from the dead, and restores the inheritance of the fathers, as Isaiah again says: "And thou shall be confident in the Lord, and He will cause thee to pass over the whole earth, and feed thee with the inheritance of Jacob thy father."305 This is what the Lord declared: "Happy are those servants whom the Lord when He cometh shall find watching. Verily I say unto you, that He shall gird Himself, and make them to sit down [to meat], and will come forth and serve them. And if He shall come in the evening watch, and find them so, blessed are they, because He shall make them sit down, and minister to them; or if this be in the second, or it be in the third, blessed are they."306 Again John also says the very same in the Apocalypse: "Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection."307 Then, too, Isaiah has declared the time when these events shall occur; he says: "And I said, Lord, how long? Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses be without men, and the earth be left a desert. And after these things the Lord shall remove us men far away (longe nos faciet Deus homines), and those who shall remain shall multiply upon the earth."308 Then Daniel also says this very thing: "And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of those under the heaven, is given to the saints of the Most High God, whose kingdom is everlasting, and all dominions shall serve and obey Him."309 And lest the promise named should be understood as referring to this time, it was declared to the prophet: "And come thou, and stand in thy lot at the consummation of the days."310

3. Now, that the promises were not announced to the prophets and the fathers alone, but to the Churches united to these from the nations, whom also the Spirit terms "the islands" (both because they are established in the midst of turbulence, suffer the storm of blasphemies, exist as a harbour of safety to those in peril, and are the refuge of those who love the height [of heaven], and strive to avoid Bythus, that is, the depth of error), Jeremiah thus declares: "Hear the word of the Lord, ye nations, and declare it to the isles afar off; say ye, that the Lord will scatter Israel, He will gather him, and keep him, as one feeding his flock of sheep. For the Lord hath redeemed Jacob, and rescued him from the hand of one stronger than he. And they shall come and rejoice m Mount Zion, and shall come to what is good, and into a land of wheat, and wine, and fruits, of animals and of sheep; and their soul shall be as a tree bearing fruit, and they shall hunger no more. At that time also shall the virgins rejoice in the company of the young men: the old men, too, shall be glad, and I will turn their sorrow into joy; and I will make them exult, and will magnify them, and satiate the souls of the priests the sons of Levi; and my people shall be satiated with my goodness."311 Now, in the preceding book312 I have shown that all the disciples of the Lord are Levites and priests, they who used in the temple to profane the Sabbath, but are blameless.313 Promises of such a nature, therefore, do indicate in the clearest manner the feasting of that creation in the kingdom of the righteous, which God promises that He will Himself serve.

4. Then again, speaking of Jerusalem, and of Him reigning there, Isaiah declares, "Thus saith the Lord, Happy is he who hath seed in Zion, and servants in Jerusalem. Behold, a righteous king shall reign, and princes shall rule with judgment"314 And with regard to the foundation on which it shall be rebuilt, he says: "Behold, I will lay in order for thee a carbuncle stone, and sapphire for thy foundations; and I will lay thy ramparts with jasper, and thy gates with crystal, and thy wall with choice stones: and all thy children shall be taught of God, and great shall be the peace of thy children; and in righteousness shalt thou be built up."315 And yet again does he say the same thing: "Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and my people [a joy]; for the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. Also there shall not be there any immature [one], nor an old man who does not fulfil his time: for the youth shall be of a hundred years; and the sinner shall die a hundred years old, yet shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and inhabit them themselves; and shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them themselves, and shall drink wine. And they shall not build, and others inhabit; neither shall they prepare the vineyard, and others eat. For as the days of the tree of life shall be the days of the people in thee; for the works of their hands shall endure."316

• Chapter XXXV.-He Contends that These Testimonies Already Alleged Cannot Be Understood Allegorically of Celestial Blessings, But that They Shall Have Their Fulfilment After the Coming of Antichrist, and the Resurrection, in the Terrestrial Jerusalem. To the Former Prophecies He Subjoins Others Drawn from Isaiah, Jeremiah, and the Apocalypse of John.
  

1. If, however, any shall endeavour to allegorize [prophecies] of this kind, they shall not be found consistent with themselves in all points, and shall be confuted by the teaching of the very expressions [in question]. For example: "When the cities" of the Gentiles "shall be desolate, so that they be not inhabited, and the houses so that there shall be no men in them and the land shall be left desolate."317 "For, behold," says Isaiah, "the day of the Lord cometh past remedy, full of fury and wrath, to lay waste the city of the earth, and to root sinners out of it."318 And again he says, "Let him be taken away, that he behold not the glory of God."319 And when these things are done, he says, "God will remove men far away, and those that are left shall multiply in the earth."320 "And they shall build houses, and shall inhabit them themselves: and plant vineyards, and eat of them themselves."321 For all these and other words were unquestionably spoken in reference to the resurrection of the just, which takes place after the coming of Antichrist, and the destruction of all nations under his rule; in [the times of] which [resurrection] the righteous shall reign in the earth, waxing stronger by the sight of the Lord: and through Him they shall become accustomed to partake in the glory of God the Father, and shall enjoy in the kingdom intercourse and communion with the holy angels, and union with spiritual beings; and [with respect to] those whom the Lord shall find in the flesh, awaiting Him from heaven, and who have suffered tribulation, as well as escaped the hands of the Wicked one. For it is in reference to them that the prophet says: "And those that are left shall multiply upon the earth," And Jeremiah322 the prophet has pointed out, that as many believers as God has prepared for this purpose, to multiply those left upon earth, should both be under the rule of the saints to minister to this Jerusalem, and that [His] kingdom shall be in it, saying, "Look around Jerusalem towards the east, and behold the joy which comes to thee from God Himself. Behold, thy sons shall come whom thou hast sent forth: they shall come in a band from the east even unto the west, by the word of that Holy One, rejoicing in that splendour which is from thy God. O Jerusalem, put off thy robe of mourning and of affliction, and put on that beauty of eternal splendour from thy God. Gird thyself with the double garment of that righteousness proceeding from thy God; place the mitre of eternal glory upon thine head. For God will show thy glory to the whole earth under heaven. For thy name shall for ever be called by God Himself, the peace of righteousness and glory to him that worships God. Arise, Jerusalem, stand on high, and look towards the east, and behold thy sons from the rising of the sun, even to the west, by the Word of that Holy One, rejoicing in the very remembrance of God. For the footmen have gone forth from thee, while they were drawn away by the enemy. God shall bring them in to thee, being borne with glory as the throne of a kingdom. For God has decreed that every high mountain shall be brought low, and the eternal hills, and that the valleys be filled, so that the surface of the earth be rendered smooth, that Israel, the glory of God, may walk in safety. The woods, too, shall make shady places, and every sweet-smelling tree shall be for Israel itself by the command of God. For God shall go before with joy in the light of His splendour, with the pity and righteousness which proceeds from Him."

2. Now all these things being such as they are, cannot be understood in reference to super-celestial matters; "for God," it is said, "will show to the whole earth that is under heaven thy glory." But in the times of the kingdom, the earth has been called again by Christ [to its pristine condition], and Jerusalem rebuilt after the pattern of the Jerusalem above, of which the prophet Isaiah says, "Behold, I have depicted thy walls upon my hands, and thou art always in my sight,"323 And the apostle, too, writing to the Galatians, says in like manner, "But the Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all."324 He does not say this with any thought of an erratic Aeon, or of any other power which departed from the Pleroma, or of Prunicus, but of the Jerusalem which has been delineated on [God's] hands. And in the Apocalypse John saw this new [Jerusalem] descending upon the new earth.325 For after the times of the kingdom, he says, "I saw a great white throne, and Him who sat upon it, from whose face the earth fled away, and the heavens; and there was no more place for them."326 And he sets forth, too, the things connected with the general resurrection and the judgment, mentioning "the dead, great and small." "The sea," he says, "gave up the dead which it had in it, and death and hell delivered up the dead that they contained; and the books were opened. Moreover," he says, "the book of life was opened, and the dead were judged out of those things that were written in the books, according to their works; and death and hell were sent into the lake of fire, the second death."327 Now this is what is called Gehenna, which the Lord styled eternal fire.328 "And if any one," it is said, "was not found written in the book of life, he was sent into the lake of fire."329 And after this, he says, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and earth have passed away; also there was no more sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, as a bride adorned for her husband." "And I heard," it is said, "a great voice from the throne, saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them; and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them as their God. And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain, because the former things have passed away."330 Isaiah also declares the very same: "For there shall be a new heaven and a new earth; and there shall be no remembrance of the former, neither shall the heart think about them, but they shall find in it joy and exultation."331 Now this is what has been said by the apostle: "For the fashion of this world passeth away."332 To the same purpose did the Lord also declare, "Heaven and earth shall pass away."333 When these things, therefore, pass away above the earth, John, the Lord's disciple, says that the new Jerusalem above shall [then] descend, as a bride adorned for her husband; and that this is the tabernacle of God, in which God will dwell with men. Of this Jerusalem the former one is an image-that Jerusalem of the former earth in which the righteous are disciplined beforehand for incorruption and prepared for salvation. And of this tabernacle Moses received the pattern in the mount;334 and nothing is capable of being allegorized, but all things are stedfast, and true, land substantial, having been made by God for righteous men's enjoyment. For as it is God truly who raises up man, so also does man truly rise from the dead, and not allegorically, as I have shown repeatedly. And as he rises actually, so also shall he be actually disciplined beforehand for incorruption, and shall go forwards and flourish in the times of the kingdom, in order that he may be capable of receiving the glory of the Father. Then, when all things are made new, he shall truly dwell in the city of God. For it is said, "He that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And the Lord says, Write all this; for these words are faithful and true. And He said to me, They are done."335 And this is the truth of the matter....

 

[FreeinChrist]

Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho:

• Chapter LXXX.-The Opinion of Justin with Regard to the Reign of a Thousand Years. Several Catholics Reject It.
  

And Trypho to this replied, "I remarked to you sir, that you are very anxious to be safe in all respects, since you cling to the Scriptures. But tell me, do you really admit that this place, Jerusalem, shall be rebuilt; and do you expect your people to be gathered together, and made joyful with Christ and the patriarchs, and the prophets, both the men of our nation, and other proselytes who joined them before your Christ came? or have you given way, and admitted this in order to have the appearance of worsting us in the controversies? "

Then I answered, "I am not so miserable a fellow, Trypho, as to say one thing and think another. I admitted to you formerly,311 that I and many others are of this opinion, and [believe] that such will take place, as you assuredly are aware;312 but, on the other hand, I signified to you that many who belong to the pure and pious faith, and are true Christians, think otherwise. Moreover, I pointed out to you that some who are called Christians, but are godless, impious heretics, teach doctrines that are in every way blasphemous, atheistical, and foolish. But that you may know that I do not say this before you alone, I shall draw up a statement, so far as I can, of all the arguments which have passed between us; in which I shall record myself as admitting the very same things which I admit to you.313 For I choose to follow not men or men's doctrines, but God and the doctrines [delivered] by Him. For if you have fallen in with some who are called Christians, but who do not admit this [truth],314 and venture to blaspheme the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob; who say there is no resurrection of the dead, and that their souls, when they die, are taken to heaven; do not imagine that they are Christians, even as one, if he would rightly consider it, would not admit that the Sadducees, or similar sects of Genistae, Meristae,315 Galilaeans, Hellenists,316 Pharisees, Baptists, are Jews (do not hear me impatiently when I tell you what I think), but are [only] called Jews and children of Abraham, worshipping God with the lips, as God Himself declared, but the heart was far from Him. But I and others, who are right-minded Christians on all points, are assured that there will be a resurrection of the dead, and a thousand years317 in Jerusalem, which will then be built, adorned, and enlarged, [as] the prophets Ezekiel and Isaiah and others declare.

• Chapter LXXXI.-He Endeavours to Prove This Opinion from Isaiah and the Apocalypse.
  

"For Isaiah spake thus concerning this space of a thousand years: `For there shall be the new heaven and the new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, or come into their heart; but they shall find joy and gladness in it, which things I create. For, Behold, I make Jerusalem a rejoicing, and My people a joy; and I shall rejoice over Jerusalem, and be glad over My people. And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, or the voice of crying. And there shall be no more there a person of immature years, or an old man who shall not fulfil his days.318 For the young man shall be an hundred years old;319 but the sinner who dies an hundred years old,320 he shall be accursed. And they shall build houses, and shall themselves inhabit them; and they shall plant vines, and shall themselves eat the produce of them, and drink the wine. They shall not build, and others inhabit; they shall not plant, and others eat. For according to the days of the tree of life shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound.321 Mine elect shall not toil fruitlessly, or beget children to be cursed; for they shall be a seed righteous and blessed by the Lord, and their offspring with them. And it shall come to pass, that before they call I will hear; while they are still speaking, I shall say, What is it? Then shall the wolves and the lambs feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the ox; but the serpent [shall eat] earth as bread. They shall not hurt or maltreat each other on the holy mountain, saith the Lord.'322 Now we have understood that the expression used among these words, `According to the days of the tree [of life323 ] shall be the days of my people; the works of their toil shall abound' obscurely predicts a thousand years. For as Adam was told that in the day he ate of the tree he would die, we know that he did not complete a thousand years. We have perceived, moreover, that the expression, `The day of the Lord is as a thousand years, '324 is connected with this subject. And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell325 a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place. Just as our Lord also said, `They shall neither marry nor be given in marriage, but shall be equal to the angels, the children of the God of the resurrection.'326

From a later commentary about the fragments of Papias located:
http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/ANF-01/anf01-43.htm#P3497_597426

VI.22
​

[Papias, who is now mentioned by us, affirms that he received the sayings of the apostles from those who accompanied them, and he moreover asserts that he heard in person Aristion and the presbyter John.23 Accordingly he mentions them frequently by name, and in his writings gives their traditions. Our notice of these circumstances may not be without its use. It may also be worth while to add to the statements of Papias already given, other passages of his in which he relates some miraculous deeds, stating that he acquired the knowledge of them from tradition. The residence of the Apostle Philip with his daughters in Hierapolis has been mentioned above. We must now point out how Papias, who lived at the same time, relates that he had received a wonderful narrative from the daughters of Philip. For he relates that a dead man was raised to life in his day.24 He also mentions another miracle relating to Justus, surnamed Barsabas, how he swallowed a deadly poison, and received no harm, on account of the grace of the Lord. The same person, moreover, has set down other things as coming to him from unwritten tradition, amongst these some strange parables and instructions of the Saviour, and some other things of a more fabulous nature.25 Amongst these he says that there will be a millennium after the resurrection from the dead, when the personal reign of Christ will be established on this earth. He moreover hands down, in his own writing, other narratives given by the previously mentioned Aristion of the Lord's sayings, and the traditions of the presbyter John. For information on these points, we can merely refer our readers to the books themselves; but now, to the extracts already made, we shall add, as being a matter of primary importance, a tradition regarding Mark who wrote the Gospel, which he [Papias] has given in the following words]: And the presbyter said this. Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord's sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took especial care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements. [This is what is related by Papias regarding Mark; but with regard to Matthew he has made the following statements]: Matthew put together the oracles [of the Lord] in the Hebrew language, and each one interpreted them as best he could. [The same person uses proofs from the First Epistle of John, and from the Epistle of Peter in like manner. And he also gives another story of a woman26 who was accused of many sins before the Lord, which is to be found in the Gospel according to the Hebrews.]

 

[tomeo]

Dave Taylor, if you want quotes from the ante-Nicene fathers as freeinchrist has so generously provided, you only need ask.
There is no need for a sarcastic, reductio ad absurdum response!
My comment regarding Hippolytus was merely to correct one of the poster's statements about Hippo's belief that Christ would return in about 500 years making Hippo a some sort of mid-millennialists. The point being is IF Christ would have returned at that time, then it doesn't negate the fact that Hippo was a premil.

 

[tomeo]

I noticed that a lot of arguments launched against dispensationalists are based on misconceptions of which kingdom is in question. The Jews were not waiting for the Kingdom of God. They were well aware of this concept. In Daniel chapter 4, Nebuchadnezzar recognized God's kingdom as being eternal. The "kingdom" the Jews were waiting for was the MESSIANIC Kingdom in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant. In Acts 1:6 the apostles ask Jesus if he was now going to restore the kingdom to Israel, Jesus didn't rebuke or correct them about having the wrong concept of the kingdom, but said He wouldn't reveal "WHEN" it would happen.

And thanks to Freeinchrist for posting that info. Saves me some work!
There is also something in Clement of Rome that I'll try to post, if I can find it again.

 

[5solas]

I noticed that a lot of arguments launched against dispensationalists are based on misconceptions of which kingdom is in question. The Jews were not waiting for the Kingdom of God. They were well aware of this concept. In Daniel chapter 4, Nebuchadnezzar recognized God's kingdom as being eternal. The "kingdom" the Jews were waiting for was the MESSIANIC Kingdom in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant. In Acts 1:6 the apostles ask Jesus if he was now going to restore the kingdom to Israel, Jesus didn't rebuke or correct them about having the wrong concept of the kingdom, but said He wouldn't reveal "WHEN" it would happen.

That is not correct, He did - even twice!
The concept of an earthly kingdom (millennium) as the Jews, Premillennialists, Dispensationalists and even Postmillennialists see it, is a misconception:

Joh 6:14 When the people saw the sign that he had done, they said, "This is indeed the Prophet who is to come into the world!"

Joh 6:15 Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world."

Joh 18:37 Then Pilate said to him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world--to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."

 

[LukeBritt]

Please refrain from posting entire books on this forum...

 

[FreeinChrist]

Please refrain from posting entire books on this forum...

convenient complaint....

 

[tomeo]

5 solas
You just ignored my point. The "Messianic" kingdom, which IS the future, earthly one is the one the Apostles are referring to in Acts 1:6. This is after the Lord taught them about the Spiritual kingdom as taught in the parables. You need to learn to "rightly divide the word of God".

 

[5solas]

5 solas
You just ignored my point. The "Messianic" kingdom, which IS the future, earthly one is the one the Apostles are referring to in Acts 1:6. This is after the Lord taught them about the Spiritual kingdom as taught in the parables. You need to learn to "rightly divide the word of God".

You, too - dear brother

Acts 1,3 To whom he also showed himself alive after his passion by many proofs, appearing unto them by the space of forty days, and speaking the things concerning the kingdom of God:

Acts 1,4 and, being assembled together with them, he charged them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, [said he], ye heard from me:

Acts 1,5 For John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence.

Acts 1,6 They therefore, when they were come together, asked him, saying, Lord, dost thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?

The disciples wanted to know if Jesus would restore the kingdom to Israel at this time. Which time? The time they had to wait in Jerusalem for the Holy Spirit.

And then He said:
Acts 1,7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know times or seasons, which the Father hath set within His own authority.

Acts 1,8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus did not say that He or the father would restore an earthly kingdom. He said that it is not for them to know times or seasons, i.e. it is not ours to know what He does in His authority. Instead they were promised to receive power to praclaim Christ's spiritual kingdom ("be my witnesses") all over the world.

As Paul says:
2Cor 5,20 We are ambassadors therefore on behalf of Christ, as though God were entreating by us: we beseech [you] on behalf of Christ, be ye reconciled to God.

 

[LukeBritt]

Good post...