Historic premillenialism or amillennialism?

Status
Not open for further replies.

FreeinChrist

CF Advisory team
Christian Forums Staff
Site Advisor
Supporter
Jul 2, 2003
144,666
17,340
USA/Belize
✟1,738,735.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
PlumTea said:
Thank you very much!
I must be a dispensationalist then. Those don't look right.

Check this one:
http://members.citynet.net/morton/images/lcoming.gif

lcoming.gif
 
Upvote 0

bobbichan

Nutella is bliss
Oct 9, 2004
511
22
42
Ohio
Visit site
✟15,792.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
US-Others
PlumTea said:
The historic ones didn't look much better to me...
The dispie ones look very familiar. :)

Off topic: Yay! Sumomo! ^_^

Back on topic: My main problem with dispensationalisim is that the charts leave out the HUGE 2000 year gap existing between Jesus's first coming, and when prophetic events start happening again on the timeline. (see attachments). So about 2000 years or so of prophetic events are swept under the rug and many historic truths are completely ignored.

I think I prefer my MSPaint charts over those fancy-smancy ones. ;)

At any rate, I don't think anyone should go after a certian belief system just because it is "familiar". We are called to test the spirits and see if they are true. I was taught the pre-trib, futurist, dispensationalist view most of my Christian life. It was only after I started to learn things myself and I realized there were other beliefs out there, that I started to look at each one objectively. I changed from the above to pretty much post-trib (as in the brunt of the trib happened during the dark ages), and historic from what I studied.

FIC on the other hand was post-trib, but she changed to pre-trib after studying.

It just depends on what you're studying. I'm not sure exactly what she looked at that made her change her views, and why she studied it. But I do know she studied it for several years. I've found other people who changed their views to something simular to mine after studying for years and years too. So uh... yeah. Don't be alarmed about all the confusion going on. ^_^ It WILL BE confusing when you first delve into it!
 

Attachments

  • dispy.JPG
    dispy.JPG
    16.2 KB · Views: 74
  • histy.JPG
    histy.JPG
    10.2 KB · Views: 62
Upvote 0
R

R.J.S

Guest
PlumTea said:
The historic ones didn't look much better to me...
The dispie ones look very familiar. :)

They were historicist. The main difference between historic premil (HP) and dispensational premill (DP) are:

1. HP do not have a distinction between Israel and the Church unlike the DP.
2. HP do not see a reinstitution of temple sacrifices during the millenium unlike the DP.
3. HP are posttribulational whereas the DP are pretribulational with respect to the rapture.
 
Upvote 0
R

R.J.S

Guest
Historic Pre-Millennialism





Alexander Reese



Until the second quarter of the nineteenth century general agreement existed among pre-millennial advocates of our Lord's Coming concerning the main outlines of the prophetic future: amidst differences of opinion on the interpretation of the Apocalypse and other portions of Scripture, the following scheme stood out as fairly representative of the school

(I) The approaching Advent of Christ to this world will be visible, personal, and glorious.

(2) This Advent, though in itself a single crisis, will be accompanied and followed by a variety of phenomena bearing upon the history of the Church, of Israel, and the world. Believers who survive till the Advent will be transfigured and translated to meet the approaching Lord, together with the saints raised and changed at the first resurrection. Immediately following this Antichrist and his allies will be slain, and Israel, the covenant people, will repent and be saved, by looking upon Him whom they pierced.

(3) Thereupon the Messianic Kingdom of prophecy, which, as the Apocalypse informs us, will last for a thousand years, will be established in power and great glory in a transfigured world. The nations will turn to God, war and oppression cease, and righteousness and peace cover the earth.

(4) At the conclusion of the kingly rule of Christ and His saints, the rest of the dead will be raised, the Last Judgement ensue, and a new and eternal world be created.

(5) No distinction was made between the Coming of our Lord, and His Appearing, Revelation, and Day, because these were all held to be synonymous, or at least related, terms, signifying always the one Advent in glory at the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom.

(6) Whilst the Coming of Christ, no matter how long the present dispensation may last, is the true and proper hope of the Church in every generation, it is nevertheless conditioned by the prior fulfillment of certain signs or events in the history of the Kingdom of God: the Gospel has first to be preached to all nations; the Apostasy and the Man of Sin be revealed, and the Great Tribulation come to pass. Then shall the Lord come.

(7) The Church of Christ will not be removed from the earth until the Advent of Christ at the very end of the present Age: the Rapture and the Appearing take place at the same crisis; hence Christians of that generation will be exposed to the final affliction under Antichrist.

Such is a fair statement of the fundamentals of Premillennialism as it has obtained since the close of the Apostolic Age. There have been differences of opinion on details and subsidiary points, but the main outline is as I have given it.

These views were held in the main by Irenaeus, the "grand-pupil" of the Apostle John, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and the primitive Christians generally until the rise of the Catholic, political Church in the West, and of allegorical exegesis at Alexandria (Harnack).

 
Upvote 0

5solas

Ephesians 2:8.9
Aug 10, 2004
1,175
91
✟16,808.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times




Author: Kim Riddlebarger

Description:Amillennialism, dispensational premillennialism, historic premillennialism, postmillennialism, preterism. These are difficult words to pronounce and even harder concepts to understand. A Case for Amillennialism presents an accessible look at the crucial theological question of the millennium in the context of contemporary evangelicalism. This study defends amillennialism as the historic Protestant understanding of the millennial age. Amillennarians believe that the millennium of Christ's heavenly reign is a present reality, not a future hope to come after his return. Recognizing that eschatology, the study of future things, is a complicated and controversial subject, Riddlebarger provides definitions of key terms and a helpful overview of various viewpoints. He examines related biblical topics as a backdrop to understanding the subject and discusses important passages of Scripture that bear upon the millennial age, including Daniel 9, Matthew 24, Romans 11, and Revelation 20. Regardless of their stance, readers will find helpful insight as Riddlebarger evaluates the main problems facing each of the major millennial positions and cautions readers to be aware of the spiraling consequences of each view.


About the Author
Dr. Kim Riddlebarger is pastor of Christ Reformed Church in Anaheim, California, and a visiting professor of systematic theology at Westminster Theological Seminary. He is cohost of the popular White Horse Inn weekly radio program sponsored by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. He has a Ph.D. from Fuller Seminary.

Publisher: Baker Book House
ISBN#: 080106435X
Binding: Paperback
Page Count: 256

Very well-written and persuasive book. Presents one of the best, most comprehensive defenses of amillennialism in print. Having loosely been a historic premillennialist for many years, this book was one of the decisive factors in changing my view. I then began to grasp how profoundly it enriches one's understanding of the entire Scripture, especially our life in Christ in the present. Highly Recommended! We think you'll be convinced.

Availability: Usually ships out the same business day

Regular Price $16.99 Sale Price 12.99

Source: http://www.monergismbooks.com/amillennial435x.html

caseamill.jpg
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

5solas

Ephesians 2:8.9
Aug 10, 2004
1,175
91
✟16,808.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
R.J.S said:
I ordered this book a few days ago...due to arrive by the end of the week. :)

you will like it! (at least I hope so)

By the way I just would like to recommend to you another excellent book (I think it's not completely off topic to recommend it here in this thread):

robertson.jpg
Israel of God








Author: O. Palmer Robertson


Description:Robertson offers a fascinating look at the questions: Who is the Israel of God today? and What is their relationship to the Promised Land, and to Israel’s worship, lifestyle, and future?
"Palmer Robertson provides a fresh and brilliant insight into the content of God’s promises of redemption to Old Testament Israel and their relevance to the Christian church. This is an exciting read." - R. C. SPROUL "

Dr. Robertson has addressed this perennial, much disputed topic in a fashion that is not only both incisive and engaging but also, to this reader at least, thoroughly convincing. My hope is that this book will serve to unite Christians today in affirming his concluding propositions." - RICHARD B. GAFFIN

O. PALMER ROBERTSON (B.D., Westminster Theological Seminary; Th.M., Th.D., Union Theological Seminary, Virginia) is Professor of Old Testament at Knox Theological Seminary and Professor of Theology at African Bible College, Malawi. He is author of several books, including The Christ of the Covenants and Psalms in Congregational Celebration.








Publisher:
P & R Publishing
ISBN#: 0875523986
Binding: Paperback
Page Count: 212

Scripture saturated, this book is for anyone who wants to understand what role Israel plays in prophesy today. Especially helpful in explaining the land promises made in Scripture. Your eyes will be opened.
Availablility: Usually ships the same business day.

Regular Price: $12.99 Our Price: $9.99
 
Upvote 0

Imblessed

Reformed Baptist with a Quaker heritage
Aug 8, 2004
2,007
111
51
Ohio
✟10,256.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
RJS:

I am undecided about what happens after Christ comes and cannot decide between Historic Premillennialism and amillennialism.
5solas said:
Like good old Mr. Spurgeon ;)



and me too! I think I'm leaning toward amil. I thought Spurgeon was a historic premil? I didn't know that he was undecided!

I think I may have to get that book. (a case for amillenialism)
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

5solas

Ephesians 2:8.9
Aug 10, 2004
1,175
91
✟16,808.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Imblessed said:
and me too! I think I'm leaning toward amil. I thought Spurgeon was a historic premil? I didn't know that he was undecided!

I think I may have to get that book. (a case for amillenialism)

have a look here http://www.spurgeon.org/eschat.htm#ans1

Perhaps the most significant and well-documented evaluation of Spurgeon's eschatology, and corresponding attempt to place him in the amillennial camp has come from Dr. Peter Masters. As already mentioned Masters is currently the pastor of The Metropolitan Tabernacle in London. Becoming pastor of this famous church, which had been suffering decline for many years, Masters is to be commended in being used by God to again extend the influence of the church and revitalizing its ministry. Masters is a vocal and prolific writer for the amillennial position, and seems to approach Spurgeon with a certain pre-understanding in that direction. In a 1991 article in Sword and Trowel, he presents a brief critique of Iain Murray's appendix in The Puritan Hope, entitled, "C. H. Spurgeon's views on Prophecy." He also briefly notes Tom Carter's work, Spurgeon at His Best.256 Masters' basic complaint with both works is the same.
The problem with Mr. Murray's assessment is that it is based on too few of Spurgeon's eschatological statements. Using only a handful of scattered quotations, he writes that, 'Spurgeon was far from clear' on 'some of the cardinal points' of prophecy, and 'cannot be said to have followed any previous school of thought consistently.257

He also states:
A recent book of quotations from Spurgeon's sermons - -a fine book apart from this blemish— declares on the basis of three short passages that Spurgeon was a post-tribulation premillennialist.258

After leveling the criticism of brevity of citations on these two works, Masters then goes on to lay out, in chronological fashion, quotations from Spurgeon's sermons ranging over his entire ministry. He presents quotations from nearly 30 different sources (many of which were presented in chapter two) and presents the conclusion that, "Certainly he would have stood much closer to amillennialism than to either of the other scenarios recognized today."259
 
Upvote 0

Imblessed

Reformed Baptist with a Quaker heritage
Aug 8, 2004
2,007
111
51
Ohio
✟10,256.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
5solas said:
thank you for that link,

Although I keep saying that I am amil--I have to relunctanty admit that maybe, just maybe I am leaning towards pre-mill post-trib.

I say relunctantly because I grew up only hearing about the dispensational pre-trib pre-mill beliefs and when I realized that was wrong, I just wanted to distance myself from that whole belief system totally. I went from that to full preterism to amillenialism---anything to say I'm not pre-mil. :sigh: I feel like a rebellious teenager who must relunctantly admit that maybe, just maybe the parents might have something right! :p


I'm definately NOT dispensational anymore, BUT--as I read the bible and try to make amillenialism fit, there are things that just don't work for me. I think that Partial Preterism is a very valid system(the idea that the destruction of Jeruselem was a BIG event, and that it ties into Matt. 24). However part preterism and amillenialism doesn't mesh up.

I'm rambling on and on here, but I think you may see where I am going. I keep finding myself thinking back to one of Spurgeon's sermons--the one where he talks about the Ressurections and that he believes there will be 2 --the just and the unjust. For some reason, every single time I contemplate the whole idea of the end times and what view is most consistent biblically, that sermon pops into my head. I just cannot stop thinking about it. (I guess this is what 'conviction' feels like :p).

OK OK OK, I think I'll just make myself feel better and admit it...............

I'm Partial-preterist, pre-millenial, post-tribulational and non-Dispensational (for now :D:D:D)
 
Upvote 0

5solas

Ephesians 2:8.9
Aug 10, 2004
1,175
91
✟16,808.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Imblessed said:
thank you for that link,

Although I keep saying that I am amil--I have to relunctanty admit that maybe, just maybe I am leaning towards pre-mill post-trib.

I say relunctantly because I grew up only hearing about the dispensational pre-trib pre-mill beliefs and when I realized that was wrong, I just wanted to distance myself from that whole belief system totally. I went from that to full preterism to amillenialism---anything to say I'm not pre-mil. :sigh: I feel like a rebellious teenager who must relunctantly admit that maybe, just maybe the parents might have something right! :p


I'm definately NOT dispensational anymore, BUT--as I read the bible and try to make amillenialism fit, there are things that just don't work for me. I think that Partial Preterism is a very valid system(the idea that the destruction of Jeruselem was a BIG event, and that it ties into Matt. 24). However part preterism and amillenialism doesn't mesh up.

I'm rambling on and on here, but I think you may see where I am going. I keep finding myself thinking back to one of Spurgeon's sermons--the one where he talks about the Ressurections and that he believes there will be 2 --the just and the unjust. For some reason, every single time I contemplate the whole idea of the end times and what view is most consistent biblically, that sermon pops into my head. I just cannot stop thinking about it. (I guess this is what 'conviction' feels like :p).

OK OK OK, I think I'll just make myself feel better and admit it...............

I'm Partial-preterist, pre-millenial, post-tribulational and non-Dispensational (for now :D:D:D)

I really had to smile when I read your testimony. I was an arminian dispensationalist first (yes, that's possible, too!) but by the wonderful grace of the Lord I became a reformed baptist - and concerning eschatology I now believe that the amillennial interpretation of the holy scripture is correct - but we will definitely now it when Jesus comes back..... ;)
 
Upvote 0

caddy

Junior Member
Jun 29, 2003
41
1
62
Ringgold, Georgia
Visit site
✟7,666.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
The majority view is still that Revelations was written in 95 A.D. Most of that is based on the word of Irenaeus. If you read Phillip Schaff you see that he and many other scholars believe it was written before the destruction of Jerusalem:

"On two points I have changed my opinion -- the second Roman captivity of Paul (which I am disposed to admit in the interest of the Pastoral Epistles), and the date of the Apocalypse (which I now assign, with the majority of modern critics, to the year 68 or 69 instead of 95, as before)." (Vol. I, Preface to the Revised Edition, 1882 The History of the Christian Church, volume 1)


One Source that I have found VERY interesting of late is the following:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/s/schaff-philip_swiss-american.html

A Very Scholarly book which I just purchased and am now starting to read is:
Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation
BY Kenneth L., Jr. Gentry

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0915815435/002-9427681-9221631?v=glance


if the book was written before the destruction of Jerusalem, the interpretation of that book is significant to say the least.







bitwise said:
The early church in large, NOT ALL, did believe in Chiliasm (i.e. Premillennialism); however, that was largely, and I think you hinted at this in your other post, a Jewish misconception regarding the Messiah, and the kingdom He would establish. The reality is that Christ never came to set up a physical kingdom on earth, nor will He ever. This is not to say there is no millennial reign, for there is, just not as it is defined in a premillennialist sense. Also note that Revelation was written around 95 A.D. The first century was almost over. Revelation 20 is an attempt to STOP the idea of a coming LITERAL kingdom, not to support it. There are many verses and avenues to study on this particular topic; however, study what the kingdom of God is, and what the temple is in the New Testament.

Jesus said, "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." - Lk 17:21

Also, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world..." - Jn 18:36.

Amillennialism, or NOW-millennialism, is the only way I have been able to understand, to some degree, Revelation chapter 20. With any other interpretive scheme, it becomes uninterpretable IN CONTEXT.

The most important thing? To let the Bible define the terms that the Bible uses, and to look at the passage in context. Seek to understand, not to form a doctrine.

-bit
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Imblessed

Reformed Baptist with a Quaker heritage
Aug 8, 2004
2,007
111
51
Ohio
✟10,256.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
5solas said:
I really had to smile when I read your testimony. I was an arminian dispensationalist first (yes, that's possible, too!) but by the wonderful grace of the Lord I became a reformed baptist - and concerning eschatology I now believe that the amillennial interpretation of the holy scripture is correct - but we will definitely now it when Jesus comes back..... ;)

yes, I wouldn't bet a penny on any one view right now. I can certainly see the value in the amillenial view--but my biggest issue right now is that I really think that the destruction of Jeruselem was significant, very significant--and that, at the moment is pretty much keeping me in the pre-mil camp, even as I try to "run away" from it! LOL

It's frustrating, to say the least, to not understand what I believe. I can see why so many people consider themselves "pan-mil"! It's certainly easier to not worry about it and not claim any one view!

But, I'm stubborn, and want to figure it out, just to so i can stop feeling so pulled in different directions......
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.