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Historic premillenialism or amillennialism?

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by Augustinian, Jun 15, 2005.

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  1. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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  2. FreeinChrist

    FreeinChrist CF Advisory team Staff Member Site Advisor Supporter

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    And

    [​IMG]
     
  3. R.J.S

    R.J.S Guest

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    Dispensationalists are those who like very complicated and fanciful charts ;)
     
  4. Imblessed

    Imblessed Reformed Baptist with a Quaker heritage

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    ROFL!

    I took a look at those and :scratch:!!! couldn't make head nor tails out of it! LOL
     
  5. PlumTea

    PlumTea Veteran

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    The historic ones didn't look much better to me...
    The dispie ones look very familiar. :)
     
  6. bobbichan

    bobbichan Nutella is bliss

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    Off topic: Yay! Sumomo! ^_^

    Back on topic: My main problem with dispensationalisim is that the charts leave out the HUGE 2000 year gap existing between Jesus's first coming, and when prophetic events start happening again on the timeline. (see attachments). So about 2000 years or so of prophetic events are swept under the rug and many historic truths are completely ignored.

    I think I prefer my MSPaint charts over those fancy-smancy ones. ;)

    At any rate, I don't think anyone should go after a certian belief system just because it is "familiar". We are called to test the spirits and see if they are true. I was taught the pre-trib, futurist, dispensationalist view most of my Christian life. It was only after I started to learn things myself and I realized there were other beliefs out there, that I started to look at each one objectively. I changed from the above to pretty much post-trib (as in the brunt of the trib happened during the dark ages), and historic from what I studied.

    FIC on the other hand was post-trib, but she changed to pre-trib after studying.

    It just depends on what you're studying. I'm not sure exactly what she looked at that made her change her views, and why she studied it. But I do know she studied it for several years. I've found other people who changed their views to something simular to mine after studying for years and years too. So uh... yeah. Don't be alarmed about all the confusion going on. ^_^ It WILL BE confusing when you first delve into it!
     

    Attached Files:

  7. R.J.S

    R.J.S Guest

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    They were historicist. The main difference between historic premil (HP) and dispensational premill (DP) are:

    1. HP do not have a distinction between Israel and the Church unlike the DP.
    2. HP do not see a reinstitution of temple sacrifices during the millenium unlike the DP.
    3. HP are posttribulational whereas the DP are pretribulational with respect to the rapture.
     
  8. R.J.S

    R.J.S Guest

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  9. R.J.S

    R.J.S Guest

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    Historic Pre-Millennialism





    Alexander Reese



    Until the second quarter of the nineteenth century general agreement existed among pre-millennial advocates of our Lord's Coming concerning the main outlines of the prophetic future: amidst differences of opinion on the interpretation of the Apocalypse and other portions of Scripture, the following scheme stood out as fairly representative of the school

    (I) The approaching Advent of Christ to this world will be visible, personal, and glorious.

    (2) This Advent, though in itself a single crisis, will be accompanied and followed by a variety of phenomena bearing upon the history of the Church, of Israel, and the world. Believers who survive till the Advent will be transfigured and translated to meet the approaching Lord, together with the saints raised and changed at the first resurrection. Immediately following this Antichrist and his allies will be slain, and Israel, the covenant people, will repent and be saved, by looking upon Him whom they pierced.

    (3) Thereupon the Messianic Kingdom of prophecy, which, as the Apocalypse informs us, will last for a thousand years, will be established in power and great glory in a transfigured world. The nations will turn to God, war and oppression cease, and righteousness and peace cover the earth.

    (4) At the conclusion of the kingly rule of Christ and His saints, the rest of the dead will be raised, the Last Judgement ensue, and a new and eternal world be created.

    (5) No distinction was made between the Coming of our Lord, and His Appearing, Revelation, and Day, because these were all held to be synonymous, or at least related, terms, signifying always the one Advent in glory at the beginning of the Messianic Kingdom.

    (6) Whilst the Coming of Christ, no matter how long the present dispensation may last, is the true and proper hope of the Church in every generation, it is nevertheless conditioned by the prior fulfillment of certain signs or events in the history of the Kingdom of God: the Gospel has first to be preached to all nations; the Apostasy and the Man of Sin be revealed, and the Great Tribulation come to pass. Then shall the Lord come.

    (7) The Church of Christ will not be removed from the earth until the Advent of Christ at the very end of the present Age: the Rapture and the Appearing take place at the same crisis; hence Christians of that generation will be exposed to the final affliction under Antichrist.

    Such is a fair statement of the fundamentals of Premillennialism as it has obtained since the close of the Apostolic Age. There have been differences of opinion on details and subsidiary points, but the main outline is as I have given it.

    These views were held in the main by Irenaeus, the "grand-pupil" of the Apostle John, Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and the primitive Christians generally until the rise of the Catholic, political Church in the West, and of allegorical exegesis at Alexandria (Harnack).

     
  10. 5solas

    5solas Ephesians 2:8.9

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    A Case for Amillennialism: Understanding the End Times




    Author: Kim Riddlebarger

    Description:Amillennialism, dispensational premillennialism, historic premillennialism, postmillennialism, preterism. These are difficult words to pronounce and even harder concepts to understand. A Case for Amillennialism presents an accessible look at the crucial theological question of the millennium in the context of contemporary evangelicalism. This study defends amillennialism as the historic Protestant understanding of the millennial age. Amillennarians believe that the millennium of Christ's heavenly reign is a present reality, not a future hope to come after his return. Recognizing that eschatology, the study of future things, is a complicated and controversial subject, Riddlebarger provides definitions of key terms and a helpful overview of various viewpoints. He examines related biblical topics as a backdrop to understanding the subject and discusses important passages of Scripture that bear upon the millennial age, including Daniel 9, Matthew 24, Romans 11, and Revelation 20. Regardless of their stance, readers will find helpful insight as Riddlebarger evaluates the main problems facing each of the major millennial positions and cautions readers to be aware of the spiraling consequences of each view.


    About the Author
    Dr. Kim Riddlebarger is pastor of Christ Reformed Church in Anaheim, California, and a visiting professor of systematic theology at Westminster Theological Seminary. He is cohost of the popular White Horse Inn weekly radio program sponsored by the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. He has a Ph.D. from Fuller Seminary.

    Publisher: Baker Book House
    ISBN#: 080106435X
    Binding: Paperback
    Page Count: 256

    Very well-written and persuasive book. Presents one of the best, most comprehensive defenses of amillennialism in print. Having loosely been a historic premillennialist for many years, this book was one of the decisive factors in changing my view. I then began to grasp how profoundly it enriches one's understanding of the entire Scripture, especially our life in Christ in the present. Highly Recommended! We think you'll be convinced.

    Availability: Usually ships out the same business day

    Regular Price $16.99 Sale Price 12.99

    Source: http://www.monergismbooks.com/amillennial435x.html

    [​IMG]
     
  11. 5solas

    5solas Ephesians 2:8.9

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  12. R.J.S

    R.J.S Guest

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    I ordered this book a few days ago...due to arrive by the end of the week. :)
     
  13. 5solas

    5solas Ephesians 2:8.9

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    you will like it! (at least I hope so)

    By the way I just would like to recommend to you another excellent book (I think it's not completely off topic to recommend it here in this thread):

    [​IMG]Israel of God








    Author: O. Palmer Robertson


    Description:Robertson offers a fascinating look at the questions: Who is the Israel of God today? and What is their relationship to the Promised Land, and to Israel’s worship, lifestyle, and future?
    "Palmer Robertson provides a fresh and brilliant insight into the content of God’s promises of redemption to Old Testament Israel and their relevance to the Christian church. This is an exciting read." - R. C. SPROUL "

    Dr. Robertson has addressed this perennial, much disputed topic in a fashion that is not only both incisive and engaging but also, to this reader at least, thoroughly convincing. My hope is that this book will serve to unite Christians today in affirming his concluding propositions." - RICHARD B. GAFFIN

    O. PALMER ROBERTSON (B.D., Westminster Theological Seminary; Th.M., Th.D., Union Theological Seminary, Virginia) is Professor of Old Testament at Knox Theological Seminary and Professor of Theology at African Bible College, Malawi. He is author of several books, including The Christ of the Covenants and Psalms in Congregational Celebration.








    Publisher:
    P & R Publishing
    ISBN#: 0875523986
    Binding: Paperback
    Page Count: 212

    Scripture saturated, this book is for anyone who wants to understand what role Israel plays in prophesy today. Especially helpful in explaining the land promises made in Scripture. Your eyes will be opened.
    Availablility: Usually ships the same business day.

    Regular Price: $12.99 Our Price: $9.99
     
  14. 5solas

    5solas Ephesians 2:8.9

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    Like good old Mr. Spurgeon ;)
     
  15. Imblessed

    Imblessed Reformed Baptist with a Quaker heritage

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    and me too! I think I'm leaning toward amil. I thought Spurgeon was a historic premil? I didn't know that he was undecided!

    I think I may have to get that book. (a case for amillenialism)
     
  16. 5solas

    5solas Ephesians 2:8.9

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    have a look here http://www.spurgeon.org/eschat.htm#ans1

    Perhaps the most significant and well-documented evaluation of Spurgeon's eschatology, and corresponding attempt to place him in the amillennial camp has come from Dr. Peter Masters. As already mentioned Masters is currently the pastor of The Metropolitan Tabernacle in London. Becoming pastor of this famous church, which had been suffering decline for many years, Masters is to be commended in being used by God to again extend the influence of the church and revitalizing its ministry. Masters is a vocal and prolific writer for the amillennial position, and seems to approach Spurgeon with a certain pre-understanding in that direction. In a 1991 article in Sword and Trowel, he presents a brief critique of Iain Murray's appendix in The Puritan Hope, entitled, "C. H. Spurgeon's views on Prophecy." He also briefly notes Tom Carter's work, Spurgeon at His Best.256 Masters' basic complaint with both works is the same.
    The problem with Mr. Murray's assessment is that it is based on too few of Spurgeon's eschatological statements. Using only a handful of scattered quotations, he writes that, 'Spurgeon was far from clear' on 'some of the cardinal points' of prophecy, and 'cannot be said to have followed any previous school of thought consistently.257

    He also states:
    A recent book of quotations from Spurgeon's sermons - -a fine book apart from this blemish— declares on the basis of three short passages that Spurgeon was a post-tribulation premillennialist.258

    After leveling the criticism of brevity of citations on these two works, Masters then goes on to lay out, in chronological fashion, quotations from Spurgeon's sermons ranging over his entire ministry. He presents quotations from nearly 30 different sources (many of which were presented in chapter two) and presents the conclusion that, "Certainly he would have stood much closer to amillennialism than to either of the other scenarios recognized today."259
     
  17. Imblessed

    Imblessed Reformed Baptist with a Quaker heritage

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    thank you for that link,

    Although I keep saying that I am amil--I have to relunctanty admit that maybe, just maybe I am leaning towards pre-mill post-trib.

    I say relunctantly because I grew up only hearing about the dispensational pre-trib pre-mill beliefs and when I realized that was wrong, I just wanted to distance myself from that whole belief system totally. I went from that to full preterism to amillenialism---anything to say I'm not pre-mil. :sigh: I feel like a rebellious teenager who must relunctantly admit that maybe, just maybe the parents might have something right! :p


    I'm definately NOT dispensational anymore, BUT--as I read the bible and try to make amillenialism fit, there are things that just don't work for me. I think that Partial Preterism is a very valid system(the idea that the destruction of Jeruselem was a BIG event, and that it ties into Matt. 24). However part preterism and amillenialism doesn't mesh up.

    I'm rambling on and on here, but I think you may see where I am going. I keep finding myself thinking back to one of Spurgeon's sermons--the one where he talks about the Ressurections and that he believes there will be 2 --the just and the unjust. For some reason, every single time I contemplate the whole idea of the end times and what view is most consistent biblically, that sermon pops into my head. I just cannot stop thinking about it. (I guess this is what 'conviction' feels like :p).

    OK OK OK, I think I'll just make myself feel better and admit it...............

    I'm Partial-preterist, pre-millenial, post-tribulational and non-Dispensational (for now :D:D:D)
     
  18. 5solas

    5solas Ephesians 2:8.9

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    I really had to smile when I read your testimony. I was an arminian dispensationalist first (yes, that's possible, too!) but by the wonderful grace of the Lord I became a reformed baptist - and concerning eschatology I now believe that the amillennial interpretation of the holy scripture is correct - but we will definitely now it when Jesus comes back..... ;)
     
  19. caddy

    caddy Junior Member

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    The majority view is still that Revelations was written in 95 A.D. Most of that is based on the word of Irenaeus. If you read Phillip Schaff you see that he and many other scholars believe it was written before the destruction of Jerusalem:

    "On two points I have changed my opinion -- the second Roman captivity of Paul (which I am disposed to admit in the interest of the Pastoral Epistles), and the date of the Apocalypse (which I now assign, with the majority of modern critics, to the year 68 or 69 instead of 95, as before)." (Vol. I, Preface to the Revised Edition, 1882 The History of the Christian Church, volume 1)


    One Source that I have found VERY interesting of late is the following:

    http://www.preteristarchive.com/StudyArchive/s/schaff-philip_swiss-american.html

    A Very Scholarly book which I just purchased and am now starting to read is:
    Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation
    BY Kenneth L., Jr. Gentry

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0915815435/002-9427681-9221631?v=glance


    if the book was written before the destruction of Jerusalem, the interpretation of that book is significant to say the least.







     
  20. Imblessed

    Imblessed Reformed Baptist with a Quaker heritage

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    yes, I wouldn't bet a penny on any one view right now. I can certainly see the value in the amillenial view--but my biggest issue right now is that I really think that the destruction of Jeruselem was significant, very significant--and that, at the moment is pretty much keeping me in the pre-mil camp, even as I try to "run away" from it! LOL

    It's frustrating, to say the least, to not understand what I believe. I can see why so many people consider themselves "pan-mil"! It's certainly easier to not worry about it and not claim any one view!

    But, I'm stubborn, and want to figure it out, just to so i can stop feeling so pulled in different directions......
     
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