Higher Creatures

[Pagan]

In the Eden Story, are the serpent, the tree of life, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the flaming sword, and the Cherubim called higher creatures?

 

[Winken]

They are outside of human awareness. They remain that way until there is Spiritual awareness. Only God provides that. Those who do not know God cannot understand the Spiritual.

 

[St_Worm2]

Are trees and swords considered "creatures" by pagans

Thanks!

 

[Pagan]

They are outside of human awareness. They remain that way until there is Spiritual awareness. Only God provides that. Those who do not know God cannot understand the Spiritual.

I'll call that in the affirmative. Thanks for the information.

 

[Pagan]

Are trees and swords considered "creatures" by pagans

Thanks!

A pagan serpent god has something to do with creation and fertility. I don't know what pagan god or gods might equate to Cherubim. A pagan god of wisdom could maybe equal to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A pagan iron and fire god might equate to the flaming sword.

I think that normally for Pagans, trees, while maybe they are alive, they are not creatures, but I'm not sure about that. The people, who I have known that would know for sure, are all dead.

 

[St_Worm2]

A pagan serpent god has something to do with creation and fertility. I don't know what pagan god or gods might equate to Cherubim. A pagan god of wisdom could maybe equal to the tree of knowledge of good and evil. A pagan iron and fire god might equate to the flaming sword.

I think that normally for Pagans, trees, while maybe they are alive, they are not creatures, but I'm not sure about that. The people, who I have known that would know for sure, are all dead.

Thanks! For Christians, trees (even though the are alive) and swords, are not considered to be "creatures". Serpents/snakes and the angel holding the flaming sword in God's Garden would be however.

 

[Serving Zion]

In the Eden Story, are the serpent, the tree of life, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the flaming sword, and the Cherubim called higher creatures?

Hi there Pagan, because it is not really clear what you are looking for here, I will just offer some food for thought from a blog entry I have written:

Adonai Reigns : Food For Thought : The Real Enemy

The only topic not covered there is the cherubim, see Strong's word dictionary #3742.

The context given of Genesis 3:24, is that the mighty one guards the way to the tree of life (we may gratefully presume so that those who are seeking for an improper purpose are excluded).

Revelation 2:7 shows that Jesus promises to share fruit of the tree of life with us, if we are overcoming.

 

[Pagan]

Thanks! For Christians, trees (even though the are alive) and swords, are not considered to be "creatures". Serpents/snakes and the angel holding the flaming sword in God's Garden would be however.

I suppose maybe a cherub may be holding the sword, but it doesn't say that.

Genesis 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

The sword appears to operate independent of the cherubim.

 

[Pagan]

Hi there Pagan, because it is not really clear what you are looking for here, I will just offer some food for thought from a blog entry I have written:

Adonai Reigns : Food For Thought : The Real Enemy

The only topic not covered there is the cherubim, see Strong's word dictionary #3742.

The context given of Genesis 3:24, is that the mighty one guards the way to the tree of life (we may gratefully presume so that those who are seeking for an improper purpose are excluded).

Revelation 2:7 shows that Jesus promises to share fruit of the tree of life with us, if we are overcoming.

I'm sorry. I thought that the terms, higher creature and lower creature, were common Christian vocabulary. Or like posting 2 says, it is vocabulary available only to spiritually aware creatures.

 

[Serving Zion]

I'm sorry. I thought that the terms, higher creature and lower creature, were common Christian vocabulary. Or like posting 2 says, it is vocabulary available only to spiritually aware creatures.

Thanks I do not use this phrase yet, are you able to provide a definition? I do not find it in Wikipedia.

 

[St_Worm2]

I suppose maybe a cherub may be holding the sword, but it doesn't say that.

Genesis 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

The sword appears to operate independent of the cherubim.

You're right, it does appear to be "acting" on it's own, or at least at the behest of someone or something other than the angel. However, I was taught that the Cherub 'was' the one holding the sword as a kid (it seems to me that there is something about that being the case in one of our hymns as well), and that stuck with me (and it is still the opinion of some theologians today), but there are many others ideas about what the "sword" actually was, and who was wielding it .. or that it was, in fact, held by no one.

Yours and His,
David

 

[Pagan]

Thanks I do not use this phrase yet, are you able to provide a definition? I do not find it in Wikipedia.

Actually no. I talked to a person who I assumed knew about Christianity, and he said something about Satan being a higher creature. The site moderators have removed that discussion. They accused us of mocking Christianity.

Now that I have wondered about it for a couple of days, I remember that in a book, Assent of Man by Jacob Bronowski, a book about the history of technology, Bronowski refers to humans as lower than the angels. In another book, I think it might have been an introduction to one of the Great Books of the Western World, Mortimer Adler used the phrase, lower than God, when referring to angels. Adler used the word angel to mean any of the various kinds of half-gods like demons, or the serpent, or angels or the cherubim, or Satan, or etc.

 

[St_Worm2]

Hi Pagan, the Bible also refers to humans as being lower than the angels, this side of Glory anyway .. Matthew 11:11. However, the Bible also tells us that we will be the angels' judges at the end of the age .. 1 Corinthians 6:3.

I believe it's been said that there are nine different kinds/levels of Heavenly beings, the archangel being the one that is highest. The thing is, whether human, or angel (fallen or holy/elect), be they a named, high-ranking archangel like Michael, or a nameless seraph or cherub, the true dividing line in Christianity is between the creature and the Creator (and the difference there is unbridgeable and incalculable).

If you don't mind me asking, why do you have an interest in knowing about this stuff?

Thanks!

--David

 

[Serving Zion]

Actually no. I talked to a person who I assumed knew about Christianity, and he said something about Satan being a higher creature. The site moderators have removed that discussion. They accused us of mocking Christianity.

Now that I have wondered about it for a couple of days, I remember that in a book, Assent of Man by Jacob Bronowski, a book about the history of technology, Bronowski refers to humans as lower than the angels. In another book, I think it might have been an introduction to one of the Great Books of the Western World, Mortimer Adler used the phrase, lower than God, when referring to angels. Adler used the word angel to mean any of the various kinds of half-gods like demons, or the serpent, or angels or the cherubim, or Satan, or etc.

It happened in the service last night, I noticed Hebrews 2:9 with your topic in mind. The question it raised for me: in what sense was Jesus made lower than the angels? Strong's word #1642 shows it as meaning that He was made a lower rank than the angels .. being that they had more authority than He, for a little while.

If this defines the question, being about authority, then it seems the cherubim and sword have greater authority than man, while the man had greater authority than the serpent (reasoned because the serpent was seeking to manipulate the man's decision dishonestly). After that, the serpent became cursed more than all livestock and beasts. The tree isn't really given as a person that has authority in this story.

 

[Pagan]

Hi Pagan, the Bible also refers to humans as being lower than the angels, this side of Glory anyway .. Matthew 11:11. However, the Bible also tells us that we will be the angels' judges at the end of the age .. 1 Corinthians 6:3.

I believe it's been said that there are nine different kinds/levels of Heavenly beings, the archangel being the one that is highest. The thing is, whether human, or angel (fallen or holy/elect), be they a named, high-ranking archangel like Michael, or a nameless seraph or cherub, the true dividing line in Christianity is between the creature and the Creator (and the difference there is unbridgeable and incalculable).

If you don't mind me asking, why do you have an interest in knowing about this stuff?

Thanks!

--David

My daughter decided to become a Christian, and my grand daughter seems to like it, so I figure that I should learn about it.

 

[Pagan]

It happened in the service last night, I noticed Hebrews 2:9 with your topic in mind. The question it raised for me: in what sense was Jesus made lower than the angels? Strong's word #1642 shows it as meaning that He was made a lower rank than the angels .. being that they had more authority than He, for a little while.

If this defines the question, being about authority, then it seems the cherubim and sword have greater authority than man, while the man had greater authority than the serpent (reasoned because the serpent was seeking to manipulate the man's decision dishonestly). After that, the serpent became cursed more than all livestock and beasts. The tree isn't really given as a person that has authority in this story.

Thanks for the information.

 

[crossnote]

In the Eden Story, are the serpent, the tree of life, the tree of knowledge of good and evil, the flaming sword, and the Cherubim called higher creatures?

NO. At least no, if you are looking in the Bible.
If you are looking in books on folk lore then anything goes.

 

[Serving Zion]

Thanks for the information.

I hope that has been useful.

Considering that you are learning about Christianity for your daughter's sake, I can offer a very good booklet that gives a scriptural view of main Christian topics, that can quickly set a reliable foundation knowledge:

Adonai Reigns : The Gospel : God did not send his son to condemn the world!

 

[Pagan]

I hope that has been useful.

Considering that you are learning about Christianity for your daughter's sake, I can offer a very good booklet that gives a scriptural view of main Christian topics, that can quickly set a reliable foundation knowledge:

Adonai Reigns : The Gospel : God did not send his son to condemn the world!

That's interesting. Looks like you put a lot of work into it.

 

[Pagan]

NO. At least no, if you are looking in the Bible.
If you are looking in books on folk lore then anything goes.

I haven't found any Christians who want to think of the trees and the flaming sword as creatures, but calling the serpent and the cherubim creatures must be a common thing. Also, the heavenly host does have some kind of hierarchy. Christians and people in general think of them as being higher or lower somehow. The terms higher creature and lower creature may not be common.