HI! Just joined as I am researching the historicity of Jesus

[Jezabella]

In his book he's quite scathing about people who think Jesus didn't exist. You'd need to see the context of that quote. Since I've never seen a reference to the source, that's hard to check.

Note that the quote says Greek or Roman. That would exclude Josephus, which has one undisputed mention, in the late 1st Cent. So as far as I know, the quote is accurate. You'd need to see context to know whether he mentions Josephus.

Josephus wrote in Greek. I meant to check this earlier as I remember that a lot of people think he wrote in Hebrew or Aramaic.

"For many years, the works of Josephus were largely known in Europe only in an imperfect Latin translation from the original Greek. Only in 1544 did a version of the standard Greek text become available in French, edited by the Dutch humanist Arnoldus Arlenius."
Source: Josephus - Wikipedia​

 

[JacquelineDeane55]

There is a nice book written by Lee Strobel also called, The case for Christ, should anyone be inclined to read it...I think it was written in order to attempt to prove the historicity of Jesus, that he was actually a real person who existed in the ancient past...I have actually read it, but it was a long time ago so I don't remember. I have a poor memory and not everything I read I actually remember...

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I've responded to this in my post #38.

I cannot accept blind faith to please an entity that is so cruel to those most vulnerable and at his mercy. I need it to make sense.

One thing you'll need to consider is that the present set of Secularized ethics that goes about in the world also needs to be rationally vetted, because it shouldn't just get a free pass away from being analyzed for what it is---insufficient and underserving, also metaphysically vacuous.

 

[Jezabella]

One thing you'll need to consider is that the present set of Secularized ethics that goes about in the world also needs to be rationally vetted, because it shouldn't just get a free pass away from being analyzed for what it is---insufficient and underserving, also metaphysically vacuous.

For sure, but the secular don't pretend to be paragons of virtue while they commit atrocities.
My secular friends at anti NRA because they are appalled at the violence and deaths of innocent people. My Christian friends are the very opposite.

I'd like to know why Christians would commit murder to extend their life on earth and delay their meeting with Jesus.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

For sure, but the secular don't pretend to be paragons of virtue while they commit atrocities.

The so-called 'secular' go around all the time----even here on CF----claiming that they've got equal or even superior morality and a more workable ethics. So, go figure!

My secular friends at anti NRA because they are appalled at the violence and deaths of innocent people. My Christian friends are the very opposite.

I'm not a NRA supporter, and I avoid being a supporter not so much because I'm appalled at violence and death (even though I am), but because I think Jesus has called us Christians to act to promote political peace with all of humanity as far as we can. Nevertheless, I don't have a problem with folks owning a gun; I do have a problem with why and upon whom they use a gun.

Moreover, I'm not sure I'd say that your Christian friends are very Christian if they truly support gun laws and if their support of such laws isn't for the purpose of defending them and their families against criminals, but rather to attack other people in our society whom they feel are 'different.' More importantly, if I were to find that any of these supposed Christian friends of yours belong to racist or militant groups, I'd definitely not identify them as either friends or brethren. No, I'd have to open my mouth, quote Scripture at them and warn them they're more than likely on a straight-shot to Hell if they don't repent.

I'd like to know why Christians would commit murder to extend their life on earth and delay their meeting with Jesus.

You need to be more specific in what you mean by murder, because you're inferring that so-called Christians WOULD commit murder to extend life on earth. And in pondering over your statement, I honestly can't say that I even know what you're talking about!

You're also saying that Christians WOULD commit "murder" to delay their meeting with Jesus, and again, I don't even know what you're talking about. It almost sounds like you're stereotyping here, imputing depravity to various, diverse people who merely claim the Christian label, but its probably needless to do so since the essence of the teaching in the New Testament indicates no one can have eternal life who truly murders and/or aggressively attacks other people.
Please tell me you're actually here to learn and not to stir up trouble ...

 

[Jezabella]

The so-called 'secular' go around all the time----even here on CF----claiming that they've got equal or even superior morality and a more workable ethics. So, go figure!

I'm not a NRA supporter, and I avoid being a supporter not so much because I'm appalled at violence and death (even though I am), but because I think Jesus has called us Christians to act to promote political peace with all of humanity as far as we can. Nevertheless, I don't have a problem with folks owning a gun; I do have a problem with why and upon whom they use a gun.

Moreover, I'm not sure I'd say that your Christian friends are very Christian if they truly support gun laws and if their support of such laws isn't for the purpose of defending them and their families against criminals, but rather to attack other people in our society whom they feel are 'different.' More importantly, if I were to find that any of these supposed Christian friends of yours belong to racist or militant groups, I'd definitely not identify them as either friends or brethren. No, I'd have to open my mouth, quote Scripture at them and warn them they're more than likely on a straight-shot to Hell if they don't repent.

You need to be more specific in what you mean by murder, because you're inferring that so-called Christians WOULD commit murder to extend life on earth. And in pondering over your statement, I honestly can't say that I even know what you're talking about!

You're also saying that Christians WOULD commit "murder" to delay their meeting with Jesus, and again, I don't even know what you're talking about. It almost sounds like you're stereotyping here, imputing depravity to various, diverse people who merely claim the Christian label, but its probably needless to do so since the essence of the teaching in the New Testament indicates no one can have eternal life who truly murders and/or aggressively attacks other people.
Please tell me you're actually here to learn and not to stir up trouble ...

I am not here to stir trouble, unless you call asking the hard questions as "stirring trouble".

This forum was recommended to me when I asked questions no one could answer.

I don't have a black/white mentality. While I may have an "atheist" status at the moment, I am always ALWAYS open to correction and new information because I am more than aware that I am NOT infallible in my views.

In case you are not aware, George W Bush not only used Biblical prophecy as his reason to attack Iraq, he attempted to use the Bible (Gog and Magog) to convince the THEN French President (Chiraq) to join the allies in their attack on Iraq. Chiraq refused and thought Bush was nuts.

The Iraq war has caused unbelievable death, destruction and devastation to millions human lives in various ways, and the Bible inspired a Christian leader to commit this atrocity. You wanted to know what I meant by "murder" - this is one example.

Further, during the pending attack on Iraq, military personnel in locations heavily populated by Christians abused and threatened war protesters, including death threats. I got that information first hand, a Christian friend who was formerly in the US military.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am not here to stir trouble, unless you call asking the hard questions as "stirring trouble".

This forum was recommended to me when I asked questions no one could answer.

I don't have a black/white mentality. While I may have an "atheist" status at the moment, I am always ALWAYS open to correction and new information because I am more than aware that not infallible in my views.

In case you are not aware, George W Bush not only used Biblical prophecy as his reason to attack Iraq, he attempted to use the Bible (Gog and Magog) to convince the THEN French President (Chiraq) to join the allies in their attack on Iraq. Chiraq refused and thought Bush was nuts.

During the pending attack on Iraq, military personnel in locations heavily populated by Christians abused and threatened war protesters, including death threats. I got that information first hand, a Christian friend who was formerly in the US military.


View attachment 268930

Yes, as a Social Studies Education graduate, and a Philosophy undergraduate, I've been generally aware of what Bush did and thought in this regard while he was president. I wasn't applauding him or other Republicans while he was in office, and I'm not clapping for them now.

I asked if you were here to stir up trouble because very often the atheists who show up here on CF ... do. Of course, most of them, granted, are men, but I take it that you're not, so I'll just let you be and remain rest assured that you're here with legitimate concerns.

 

[Jezabella]

Yes, as a Social Studies Education graduate, and a Philosophy undergraduate, I've been generally aware of what Bush did and thought in this regard while he was president. I wasn't applauding him or other Republicans while he was in office, and I'm not clapping for them now.

I asked if you were here to stir up trouble because very often the atheists who show up here on CF ... do. Of course, most of them, granted, are men, but I take it that you're not, so I'll just let you be and remain rest assured that you're here with legitimate concerns.

Thank you for believing me. I have a solid Catholic background so I a very Christian backstory - yet Baptists will tell me "Catholics are not Christians".

I "evolved" into a humanitarian and am flabbergasted that Christians who wear a self-righteous "pro-life" label when it comes to a
zygote have no trouble protecting their rights to an AR15.

I know the Bible better than the vast majority of Christians I speak to. BY FAR. Most of them know little beyond the story books they read as Children. But if I question the Bible, they call me all kinds of names and tell me I'm going to hell. Yet ... I've been asked if I'm Christian by a new friend just because I did something kind for them. As if a non-Christian isn't capable of being kind.

To be honest, I have found that most Christians worship money and power more than god or Jesus. I say that as a fact, it is not meant to insult.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thank you for believing me. I have a solid Catholic background so I a very Christian backstory. I "evolved" into a humanitarian and am flabbergasted that Christians who wear a self-righteous "pro-life" label when it comes to a
zygote has no trouble protecting their rights to an AR15.

You're welcome!

I know the Bible better than the vast majority of Christians I speak to. BY FAR. Most of them know little beyond the story books they read as Children. But if I question the Bible, they call me all kinds of names and tell me I'm going to hell.

That kind of thing can happen. I've been called a heretic by some myself, and some have even insinuated that I'm narcissistic, mainly because I won't roll with the more fundamentalistic lines of thought. As far as I'm concerned, any of us can question the Bible all we want. There's nothing wrong with doing so.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thank you for believing me. I have a solid Catholic background so I a very Christian backstory - yet Baptists will tell me "Catholics are not Christians".

While I'm not Catholic in the cultural sense of the word, I don't consider myself Protestant either, even though I've primarily attended and worshiped among Southern Baptist or Christian Church congregations. Yet, I'm in no way tempted to say that my Roman Catholic brethren aren't fellow Christians. From my angle, it's more accurate to see my Catholic 'family' as fellow travelers in the same Million Acre Ranch owned by Christ, although I might have a few questions for them along the way just as I would for any fellow Christian who belongs to any other denomination.

I "evolved" into a humanitarian and am flabbergasted that Christians who wear a self-righteous "pro-life" label when it comes to a
zygote have no trouble protecting their rights to an AR15.

Yes, a number of folks who label themselves as Christians have a lot to work on as far as divesting themselves of political beliefs which fail to jive coherently with the ethical vision which the New Testament writers have expressed.

I know the Bible better than the vast majority of Christians I speak to. BY FAR. Most of them know little beyond the story books they read as Children. But if I question the Bible, they call me all kinds of names and tell me I'm going to hell. Yet ... I've been asked if I'm Christian by a new friend just because I did something kind for them. As if a non-Christian isn't capable of being kind.

It is aggravating when those who call themselves Christians badger those of us who like to think outside of the box, especially if we've become 50 times more conversant with the actual contents of the Bible that the average Christian Joe who regularly sits in a Church pew ever single Sunday of his life. So, my heart goes out to you, but just realize that you're not alone in feeling the way you do. On the other hand, I'd also maintain that it's best to "test all things" with the same analytical/evaluative sauce ... so for me, this means that as I go along in my life, questioning the Bible, I will also equally question the underlying premises put "in print" by various Skeptics and Atheists, just as I would those of fellow Christians.

To be honest, I have found that most Christians worship money and power more than god or Jesus. I say that as a fact, it is not meant to insult.

Well, if this is the case, then I think we both know that such folks aren't really Christian then, are they? I think you know what I mean in that we both know that Jesus said we can't worship and serve both God and Mammon, among other things.

 

[Jezabella]

Well, if this is the case, then I think we both know that such folks aren't really Christian then, are they? I think you know what I mean in that we both know that Jesus said we can't worship and serve both God and Mammon, among other things.

I am told, as many atheists are, "so you are a non-believer. Move along, why are you obsessed with arguing about god?".

It's not an obsession for nothing. If Christians were even fractionally like former President Jimmy Carter, I would go to church just to breathe the same air as such amazing people. I would not care whether they believed in Adam and Eve and a 6000 year old earth. I only care that they care about other human beings.

Jimmy Carter is 95 - among other projects, he and his wife are still working (hands-on) on building houses for the homeless. They live in the same house they had before he was president. They are not into a showy lifestyle for themselves. His compassion for people brings tears to my eyes.

Then we have Televangelists who target the weak and vulnerable for money, telling them that heaven will await them. Those who feel compelled to send money can barely pay their electricity bill. They are usually the elderly, the sick, the disabled. Meanwhile these pastors travel by private jet. Benny Hinn stayed in hotel suites costing up to $25K PER NIGHT. How do people turn a blind eye to this level of theft from those who already have so little?

Then they have the audacity to tell others how to live, forcing people to have children they just do not have the emotional and financial resources for. I am pro-CHOICE. I am not talking about terminating the life of a baby at full term, the way Trump has been manipulating people to believe Democrats do. Because I have become so aware of what happens to vulnerable children, I would rather see the termination of a zygote than the birth of a child who becomes abused emotionally, physically, sexually. The staggering stats on mental illness and substance abuse tells us that the world's BIGGEST Christian majority country is anything but spiritual. The obsession with celebrities, with gossip, with pointing fingers at others .... it is mindblowing.

Christianity, like most religions, is but a culture - celebrating traditions passed down from generations without ever questioning WHY millions of innocent children in certain parts of the world die from preventable causes before the age of 5 while something along the lines of 150 billion pounds of food is thrown away every year in a country like the US. To add insult to injury, the production of food has contributed hugely to the climate crisis.

Having said that, I wish the genuine Christians on this board a peaceful Christmas - I know you exist, but sadly I also know you are few and far between.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I am told, as many atheists are, "so you are a non-believer. Move along, why are you obsessed with arguing about god?".

It's not an obsession for nothing. If Christians were even fractionally like former President Jimmy Carter, I would go to church just to breathe the same air as such amazing people. I would not care whether they believed in Adam and Eve and a 6000 year old earth. I only care that they care about other human beings.

Jimmy Carter is 95 - among other projects, he and his wife are still working (hands-on) on building houses for the homeless. They live in the same house they had before he was president. They are not into a showy lifestyle for themselves. His compassion for people brings tears to my eyes.

Then we have Televangelists who target the weak and vulnerable for money, telling them that heaven will await them. Those who feel compelled to send money can barely pay their electricity bill. They are usually the elderly, the sick, the disabled. Meanwhile these pastors travel by private jet. Benny Hinn stayed in hotel suites costing up to $25K PER NIGHT. How do people turn a blind eye to this level of theft from those who already have so little?

Then they have the audacity to tell others how to live, forcing people to have children they just do not have the emotional and financial resources for. I am pro-CHOICE. I am not talking about terminating the life of a baby at full term, the way Trump has been manipulating people to believe Democrats do. Because I have become so aware of what happens to vulnerable children, I would rather see the termination of a zygote than the birth of a child who becomes abused emotionally, physically, sexually. The staggering stats on mental illness and substance abuse tells us that the world's BIGGEST Christian majority country is anything but spiritual. The obsession with celebrities, with gossip, with pointing fingers at others .... it is mindblowing.

Christianity, like most religions, is but a culture - celebrating traditions passed down from generations without ever questioning WHY millions of innocent children in certain parts of the world die from preventable causes before the age of 5 while something along the lines of 150 billion pounds of food is thrown away every year in a country like the US. To add insult to injury, the production of food has contributed hugely to the climate crisis.

Having said that, I wish the genuine Christians on this board a peaceful Christmas - I know you exist, but sadly I also know you are few and far between.View attachment 269063

I agree with most of what you've written here. And what's interesting, I referred to Jimmy Carter not so long ago when talking to another atheist poster here on CF, and he essentially dismissed me outright when I suggested he look up Jimmy Carter as a better Christian example. Now, why is that, do you think? Is it because he's a male and you're a female?