HI! Just joined as I am researching the historicity of Jesus

[Jezabella]

Does anyone have any information as follows:

1) What did Jesus do from birth to age 30?

2) Historical records of Jesus outside the Gospels.
I understand Josephus and Tacitus are problematic as neither are contemporaries.

Thanks in advance, looking forward to any help I can get.

 

[mnorian]

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[2PhiloVoid]

Does anyone have any information as follows:

1) What did Jesus do from birth to age 30?

2) Historical records of Jesus outside the Gospels.
I understand Josephus and Tacitus are problematic as neither are contemporaries.

Thanks in advance, looking forward to any help I can get.

Other than what we find in the Gospel of Luke, there's precious little one can draw upon to find out about Jesus' life before He came on the scene nearly 2,000 years ago. If anything, all we can do is research social details about what life in Israel, even under Roman occupation, was like for Jewish people during the 1st century and derive indirectly some things that may have applied to Jesus and His family.

 

[Albion]

Does anyone have any information as follows:

1) What did Jesus do from birth to age 30?

There are several comments in scripture about him growing up plus one famous incident about him speaking with the elders when he was aged 12. Then nothing is recorded until his public ministry began, presumably at about age 30. There are numerous theories about what he did during these lost years.

2) Historical records of Jesus outside the Gospels.
I understand Josephus and Tacitus are problematic as neither are contemporaries.

That's correct.

 

[JackRT]

1) What did Jesus do from birth to age 30?

That is an excellent question but one the Bible is largely silent on. I suspect that he studied in the local synagogue until his presentation in the Temple at age 12 where he drew much attention. After that I suspect that he undertook rabbinical studies in Bet Hillel while at the same time refining his skills as a tecton (skilled workman). Rabbis were, of course, expected to support themselves. Incidentally Rabbis were also expected to be married.

 

[splish- splash]

Admin hat on
thread was moved from
Introduce Yourself
to
History and Genealogy
for a better fit and responses;
and because IY is just for short greetings.
Hat off.
​

 

[redleghunter]

Does anyone have any information as follows:

1) What did Jesus do from birth to age 30?

2) Historical records of Jesus outside the Gospels.
I understand Josephus and Tacitus are problematic as neither are contemporaries.

Thanks in advance, looking forward to any help I can get.

What do you consider contemporary?

 

[redleghunter]

Does anyone have any information as follows:

1) What did Jesus do from birth to age 30?

2) Historical records of Jesus outside the Gospels.
I understand Josephus and Tacitus are problematic as neither are contemporaries.

Thanks in advance, looking forward to any help I can get.

Agnostic New Testament scholar Bart Erhman wrote a couple of books on the historical Jesus. The most recent one is from 2012 called “Did Jesus Exist?”

So that would be from the perspective from your side of the spectrum.

From the Christian NT scholarship side of the equation there are centuries of works. Probably the best is the founder of the Harvard Law Review Simon Greenleaf called “The Testimony of the Evangelists.”


I asked earlier about your definition of “contemporary.” The ancients did not have a 24 hour news cycle and publish books overnight like we have today. The question should be were the historian’s sources and investigation accurate and exhaustive. Both Tacitus and Josephus from the same century as Christ would meet this ancient criteria. Mostly Josephus as he lived most of the century in very interesting times.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Does anyone have any information as follows:

1) What did Jesus do from birth to age 30?

2) Historical records of Jesus outside the Gospels.
I understand Josephus and Tacitus are problematic as neither are contemporaries.

Thanks in advance, looking forward to any help I can get.

I had a thread a few months back that covers an interesting linked article on Belief.net.

Jesus in Egypt


http://www.egypt.travel/en/stories/the-journey-of-the-holy-family-to-egypt

 

[Pavel Mosko]

There's some very distinctive Coptic icons regarding the Holy Family crossing the Nile and Entering Egypt.

 

[Jezabella]

What do you consider contemporary?

Historians who were alive at the same time Jesus was. Neither Tacitus nor Josephus were born until AFTER the crucifixion and neither wrote about Jesus until approx 6 decades later. Hence many dismiss them as fake.

 

[Jezabella]

View attachment 267763

There's some very distinctive Coptic icons regarding the Holy Family crossing the Nile and Entering Egypt.

Can you cite them with a source?

 

[redleghunter]

Historians who were alive at the same time Jesus was. Neither Tacitus nor Josephus were born until AFTER the crucifixion and neither wrote about Jesus until approx 6 decades later. Hence many dismiss them as fake.

They were fake historians because they opined on history decades later? We don’t hold our modern historians to such a standard. We have plenty of historians not born during WWI and WWII writing history books. Many quite accomplished.

So in your research which historians by name would be credible historians of early to mid 1st Century AD history? Would they not be historians but contemporary commentators on the era they lived in? Now such people would be good sources for later century historians to quote and use in their historical investigations.

It was such gushing love of Thucydides by many historians on the Peloponnesian War. Then some historians noted he was a biased source for the Athenians.

So it seems to me you are looking for actual eyewitness accounts and not history.

 

[Radagast]

Does anyone have any information as follows:

1) What did Jesus do from birth to age 30?

We don't really know. Worked as a carpenter, probably.

2) Historical records of Jesus outside the Gospels.
I understand Josephus and Tacitus are problematic as neither are contemporaries.

No, they're not problematic. If we only used history books written by contemporaries, there wouldn't be much history! We certainly take Tacitus seriously regarding the other people he writes about, so why not about Jesus? That said, though, one of Josephus's mentions of Jesus (the Testimonium Flavianum) has probably had some later editing to make it more positive.

Certainly, no serious academic historian that I'm aware of doubts that Jesus existed, and that his followers started the religion that we call Christianity.

And of course, we have plenty of contemporary accounts by Christians. There's no reason to totally discount those.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Can you cite them with a source?

Well one of my favorite places on the internet looks like it has paired down it selection and I don't see anymore listed online, but I found a good example here. In general the Copts see the Nile crossing and living in their country as something of a blessing.


HOLY FAMILY IN EGYPT COPTIC ICON BY ARTISTS, BEDOUR LATIF AND YOUSSEF NASSEIF

 

[Jezabella]

Other than what we find in the Gospel of Luke, there's precious little one can draw upon to find out about Jesus' life before He came on the scene nearly 2,000 years ago. If anything, all we can do is research social details about what life in Israel, even under Roman occupation, was like for Jewish people during the 1st century and derive indirectly some things that may have applied to Jesus and His family.

But that's assuming Jesus existed at that time. That's not providing a source of evidence for the existence of Jesus, which is what I am looking for.

 

[Jezabella]

We don't really know. Worked as a carpenter, probably.



No, they're not problematic. If we only used history books written by contemporaries, there wouldn't be much history! We certainly take Tacitus seriously regarding the other people he writes about, so why not about Jesus? That said, though, one of Josephus's mentions of Jesus (the Testimonium Flavianum) has probably had some later editing to make it more positive.

Certainly, no serious academic historian that I'm aware of doubts that Jesus existed, and that his followers started the religion that we call Christianity.

And of course, we have plenty of contemporary accounts by Christians. There's no reason to totally discount those.

We all know that history is problematic, even modern history ,,, because history especially at a time when people were simplistic and uneducated ... was very subjective. History passed on via "Chinese Whispers" is not reliable.

Most Brits were taught in school that Churchill was a man to be highly esteemed. Now, with the internet and the ability to research and exchange information in real time, we discover that Churchill was a genocidal maniac. See how distorted history can be? There are people alive today that were around during the time of Churchill. They can provide first hand information.
During the first century, life expectancy was 45-50. So unless they were educated and recorded events in real time, stories handed down through the decades cannot be reliable.


Most Japanese students had no idea of their country's role in WWII unless they were exchange students because they were not taught in school about the atrocities committed by their soldiers.

For a long time. people thought Mother Teresa was a living saint. Now we know she was NOT, she even covered up for a pedophile priest.

The above are all modern day situations and events, and STILL we were misled to the point of being lied to.

I really want some good information I can present for the historicity of Jesus.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

But that's assuming Jesus existed at that time. That's not providing a source of evidence for the existence of Jesus, which is what I am looking for.

There is no ultra direct "extra-biblical" evidence about Jesus; and I think what your looking for would be evidence provided (written?) by his social and cultural detractors, otherwise it would probably be in the Sacred Library we all already have (i.e. in the New Testament collection).

 

[Jezabella]

Agnostic New Testament scholar Bart Erhman wrote a couple of books on the historical Jesus. The most recent one is from 2012 called “Did Jesus Exist?”

So that would be from the perspective from your side of the spectrum.

From the Christian NT scholarship side of the equation there are centuries of works. Probably the best is the founder of the Harvard Law Review Simon Greenleaf called “The Testimony of the Evangelists.”


I asked earlier about your definition of “contemporary.” The ancients did not have a 24 hour news cycle and publish books overnight like we have today. The question should be were the historian’s sources and investigation accurate and exhaustive. Both Tacitus and Josephus from the same century as Christ would meet this ancient criteria. Mostly Josephus as he lived most of the century in very interesting times.

Bart Ehrman has "mood swings".

This is a verbatim quote, I have watched the actual speech this was transcribed from.

 

[JackRT]

Bart Ehrman has "mood swings".

And the point of this is?

I also agree with Ehrman in both those quotes.