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First of all, God is not above or below the law. He is the law. He is perfectly righteous. He cannot sin, Sin cannot exist near Him. The law exists so that when followed we are like God. However, no human can follow the law without breaking one. Jesus as God/man lived a life without sin. If any human could have done this they would not need Christs gift of salvation. But All have sinned and need Christ's gift of salvation. Since Christ lived a human life without sin, He was capable of dying for my sin, your sin, any human who asks. He was sinless yet paid the price for sin.I have many questions that I've asked. I don't remember what I asked in the thread that got deleted. If you want four of my questions, how about starting with just this one:
Is God above the law or not?
It would seem to me that the answer to this question is an obvious no. Jesus had to die because of the weight of the law. If God was above the law then he would just forgive everyone without sending his son to pay for the debts.
But then there is a problem. Deuteronomy 24:16 says,
The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.
This, presumably, is directly from God.
Then in 2 Samuel 12:13-20, David's son is killed by God because of sins committed by David.
So... is God above the law or not?
You had your chance, I let things slide and was willing to move on if you would get on the ball, but no, still the same ol' same ol', of not answering questions that were vital in order to address the issues you bring up. Same thing you have done throughout this. So I can only conclude, you don't really want issues addresses or resolved, you only want to leave things undone in your mind so you can bellyache about others while taking no responsibility for your part of the overall problem you complain about.
That or, and I hate to say it because it's often just a nasty comeback, but maybe you have comprehension issues, thus a problem understanding my post. See things get a little complicated when questions are not answered, things get backed up, and it all has to be reexplained. Honestly it was a little tough for me to keep up in order to get my last post out, but only to see you skip over it for the most part was a little disappointing, and I thought a bit rude on your part, if that's all there was to it.
Anyway, if comprehension was the problem and you have questions, let me know and I'll try to explain it, but if not and this is just the all about you world it appears to be, and the need to see others in a way you do in order to deal with your own insecurities, we can drop it there because any further attempts to address what you bring up will obviously be futile. Nothing new about insecurity issues, so don't take it too personally...fact is it happens, no biggie, but I would address that first, and save you an us both from beating our head against a brick wall here.
You still ignored it
What's clear to me is that you can't answer my question. You keep dancing around despite the fact that it's been presented to you three times. The guy in the peanut gallery who is showering likes upon anyone who speaks against me broke his back doing similar gymnastics in avoiding the question.
The question is, "Why did Jesus have to die if God can forgive our sins without such a sacrifice?"
I am curious to know whether you could put a number on the Christians who are not in a back-slidden state, who you are also holding in mind for this topic. Then comparatively the number of Christians on this forum who are not in a back-slidden state. Plus, as an exercise, if you could identify the ones being/not being backslidden in this thread, and give an approximate ratio. It is because of your comments in #84, #93 and #99 that this would be useful.
Please consider Luke 12:48 and Matthew 25:26-27, also keeping in mind the aforementioned talents that you are possessing and manifesting (#84, #93 and #99).
I know that a Christian demonstrating those fruits of the flesh are not living a perfectly repentant lifestyle. When one departs from the truth of The Holy Spirit, they accept a counterfeit instead. Consider James 1:22 with respect to that.
I am grateful to see your topic on this, despite that I wish you'd make a positive contribution. You are uncovering and addressing a very important truth.
Not true, your question was answered by myself and others several times. As far as ignoring it as you claim, ask me and I'll quote proof you are not telling the truth.
The answer it God is the Boss, he chose to do that, no more no less...end of story...answer concluded.
As to why? none of my business really but if you want my opinion, I'd say to make the point there is a cost to doing wrong, a price must be paid. It's really no different from the old plan of sacrificing animals. Guess God figured if the innocent had to suffer for what we do, maybe we'd be shamed to straighten up and fly right, or at the very least do better. There were several things the Jesus sacrifice fixed. By giving his son, he not only gave the ultimate sacrifice that covered it all, but in doing so, he did away with all the hassle of doing all that stuff from the past to get forgiveness. Now all we have to do is accept...simpler and much more effective, or I'm guessing that was the intention anyway. And there were probably several other reasons why, but I'd say those are the basics. However, in the end, doesn't matter what I say or think, again, he's the Boss, that's what he did for his own reasons and I accept that as good enough for me.
No, you just choose to not see the answers were there. Just because everything isn't there perfectly for your beckoned call due to confusion brought on by your own self by either you not reading, not answering, not comprehending or just not wanting to see doesn't mean it wasn't there. If there were delays in getting your answer I told you why that was but you just want have any of it, nor can you even see you had your answer all along.
Geez Louise.
So he sacrificed himself to himself for our sins even though he didn't want to and didn't have to?
If God doesn't exist, why try to prove it, just move on, but no, somewhere in there they know he does, it's built in so they fight that which cannot be won tooth and nail and for the rest of their lives. Let's take any religion that doesn't have God/Christ, I don't believe in it, but I won't go to their discussion boards and do all this, I'd just discount it without a word as silly/hardly pay it any attention at all, and I seriously suspect most Atheists would do the same, but they don't do that with Christianity. They only fight against that which they know in their heart is real, and the harder they fight, the more convinced I am, they KNOW he's real, as real as the Hell they are so frightened of.
I would not look in these forums for absolutes or good apologetics. I have even found some points of view expressed here disturbing!
I have also found some help here, and a lot of important info on groups and disputes, and some iron sharpening iron, as the proverb goes.
I would use these forums to find opinions only and may use it to dive board into new ideas for a thesis.
You should not have looked here but looked for a professional lecturer in a degree course college or uni, or a distinction graduate of one, for answers in his or her field of expertise. I use Emmaus Bible College and may study there. When you opened your Bible for your first serious read, it should have been guided and should have begun with John the apostle.
When I first read the Bible I was out of luck and read that a woman was thrown out when they were threatened, raped all night by wicked men, and when they finished, she went back to the closed door and died... I tore up that Bible and mostly forgot about it. In retrospect I read a passage not about righteous men but misogynists. I was oblivious.
Maybe see a lecturer, or audit study, or do a certificate 4 or a whole degree and use exegesis. You can even contact great universities of current day Christendom like Fuller or Regent College Vancouver, or ORU...
So it has not occurred to you that for some of us it is therapeutic to discuss the topic since we were indoctrinated into the belief system which includes eternal hellfire?
It would be sufficient but not necessary to do X, and because the goal could be accomplished without doing X, X seems pointless.
Replace "X" with "Christ being crucified" or "Cutting off your hand to feed your dog" and the sentence remains the same.
I think you are misusing the term "back-slidden". No Christian I know of has dedicated their life to following Jesus as best as humanly possible, so there is no one who has back-slid from that state into something less righteous. Christians just back-slide from bad to worse.
So he sacrificed himself to himself for our sins even though he didn't want to and didn't have to?
It would be sufficient but not necessary to do X, and because the goal could be accomplished without doing X, X seems pointless.
To be perfectly honest, that is what I have seen from you in what you have asked and stated about the Christian faith. You seemed to be insisting upon your interpretation of the Bible when asking Christians questions, and not taking the answers of Christians who have familiarized themselves with those passages as answers. That's going to naturally invite hostility. And given what you shared about your faith experience previously - you seemed to have a hyper-literal interpretation of the Bible when you identified as Christian, given what you have shared that I have read - it seems that you were not a very solid Christian, the type that stands out as being out in left field. Judging us and our faith by the standards you had back in those days is unfair to both you and us. If I had one thing to advise to you, it would be to put those preconceived notions you had of the faith aside, and listen to us if you want to discuss our faith. Christians who are faithful to the Bible's teaching, yet do not interpret it as you do/did, exist. Even conservative ones. If I could advise two things, the second would be to be more civil.In my time here I've seen hatred, mockery, and willful ignorance. What I haven't seen is love or intelligent discourse.
This is technically my introduction because I never made a thread here. But really, instead of a "hello", I'm coming here asking if there is a reason to stay.
I was born into a Christian home and indoctrinated into the faith my whole childhood. At 18 I backslid, then I got stronger in my faith and dedicated myself to reading the whole Bible. This utterly obliterated my faith.
I'm not making this post to open up a dialogue on that issue. I've already turned over every leaf on the apologetics forum and have gotten very few answers. So if you are looking to argue, you can respond to my arguments there. But I doubt I'll respond because, as stated above, I'm not convinced that I have a good reason to stay on these forums and if nothing enlightening happens on this thread then I'm done here (and my expectations are that this thread will probably be taken down and action taken against my account).
The vast majority of attempts at answering my questions have been abysmal failures, which wasn't surprising, but what surprised me was the amount of vitriol and hate Christians have spewed at me. I've participated in this, sometimes instigating and sometimes rightfully responding to unprovoked attacks, and I simply do not see the love of Christ anywhere on these forums. I have no desire to be a jerk, but even if I did I should not receive rude comments back from a Christian. Am I wrong in thinking that Christians are held to a higher standard than I am?
In my time here I've seen hatred, mockery, and willful ignorance. What I haven't seen is love or intelligent discourse. Are atheists treated that way because we're not wanted here?
@OP: What was the message that was preached to you that you based your young faith off of? (see sig)
And I think there are people who want to play what I call "word chess", including see how they can maneuver me with stuff they may not be serious about. And ones might be under the influence, at least at times.I suggest it is rather obvious that the following categories of people are over-represented:
1. People with time on their hands since they are, perhaps through no fault of their own, less than fully capable at the business of life.
2. People who enjoy baiting others;
3. People with crackpot beliefs seeking likeminded people;
4. People looking to express their xenophobia and homophobia.
5. People who, again perhaps through no fault of their own, are not thinking clearly.
hey bud, I apologize for the miserable experience you are having.
but there are a few things to remember.
Christianity is not a self help seminar.
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