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Hey Republicans, Can We End the Red Scare Already? Liberals Aren't Communists!

pakicetus

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@Sistrin that's another long post without any evidence that any Democrats are communists. Are you ever going to give any or will you just keep asserting they're communists and expect me to believe you?

Also, even the source you gave doesn't quote Sanders as saying he wants a top income tax rate of 90%. He said it wasn't obviously too high, which isn't the same as proposing it. He actually proposes a top income tax rate of 52%, which would only apply to people making over $10 million (in other words, not most people). If that makes him a communist, I guess a lot of first world democracies are communist too. Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, the Netherlands, Finland, Japan, France, Austria, Israel, and Slovenia have top income tax rates over 50%. It would also mean America was communist during the Great Compression and the Golden Age of Capitalism, as well as most of the Reagan years, since our top rate was over 50% every year from 1932 to 1986 (averaging almost 80%). It was about 90% from 1942 to 1963, before we cut it to 70%.
 
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The Cadet

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The idea that somehow the left isn't ultimately working toward this end is laughable.

No, it isn't. The fact that Lenin followed a certain set of goals that went from a transitional phase of "a really good situation" (a secular society with a strong safety net) to something awful is not an indication that those who want that particular situation are aiming for the same goal! You are making an astounding leap of logic here.

Whether they care to admit it or not, power is what they seek and they won't be satisfied until everyone looks, thinks and acts exactly the same.

So basically, never mind what they say (or do, or legislate), they actually want something entirely different!

Wat.

Look, I'm sorry, if you have an actual argument, feel free to make it. But this guilt by association fallacy fails miserably. Is it only possible for Democrats to be aiming for these goals because they want Soviet-era communism? Or is it at all possible that they're aiming for modern-era Denmark and that you could find quotes from historical figures to make Leninist comparisons almost regardless of what their actual policy was?

But you know better than all of them.

Well... Yeah. They're wrong. If all those influential media people believed that the earth was flat, then guess what: they'd still be idiots.

Sounds like the modern Democrat party to me.

Hold the phone. Are you seriously saying that this:

"a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production"

Describes the Democratic party? Literally nothing here makes any sense whatsoever.

Given the nation in which we live combined with the fact a percentage of the population can still think for themselves, prominent members of the Democrat party can not articulate how they truly view various issues or how they would resolve them.

Oh, so again, it's that they're simply lying about their motivations, and you have sussed it out. Right. That makes a lot of sense. The majority of Democrats who have never advocated for state-owned means of production (no, gaining shares in a company in exchange for bailing it out, then selling those shares and abandoning control as soon as the company is above water again is not really comparable), never advocated a single-party system, and have never advocated authoritarianism or totalitarianism are all secret communists.

Anyone else on the right want to step in and say, "These guys are outliers, they don't speak for me, I think these ideas are kind of bizarre"? It would be nice if it happened without prompting, but I'll take "delayed" over "never".
 
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Thunder Peel

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No, it isn't. The fact that Lenin followed a certain set of goals that went from a transitional phase of "a really good situation" (a secular society with a strong safety net) to something awful is not an indication that those who want that particular situation are aiming for the same goal! You are making an astounding leap of logic here.



So basically, never mind what they say (or do, or legislate), they actually want something entirely different!

Wat.

Look, I'm sorry, if you have an actual argument, feel free to make it. But this guilt by association fallacy fails miserably. Is it only possible for Democrats to be aiming for these goals because they want Soviet-era communism? Or is it at all possible that they're aiming for modern-era Denmark and that you could find quotes from historical figures to make Leninist comparisons almost regardless of what their actual policy was?



Well... Yeah. They're wrong. If all those influential media people believed that the earth was flat, then guess what: they'd still be idiots.



Hold the phone. Are you seriously saying that this:

"a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production"

Describes the Democratic party? Literally nothing here makes any sense whatsoever.



Oh, so again, it's that they're simply lying about their motivations, and you have sussed it out. Right. That makes a lot of sense. The majority of Democrats who have never advocated for state-owned means of production (no, gaining shares in a company in exchange for bailing it out, then selling those shares and abandoning control as soon as the company is above water again is not really comparable), never advocated a single-party system, and have never advocated authoritarianism or totalitarianism are all secret communists.

Anyone else on the right want to step in and say, "These guys are outliers, they don't speak for me, I think these ideas are kind of bizarre"? It would be nice if it happened without prompting, but I'll take "delayed" over "never".

My argument is simple: The Democrats are all about control. Whether you choose to admit that or not isn't my concern. The left is never satisfied and Obama is a great example. Over the past seven years we've had more open borders, pulled out of Iraq, closed Gitmo, enacted Obamacare, seen gay marriage legalized, spent upward of $19 trillion, raised taxes, had more gun legislation and have seen the government take a more active role in the economy. This is what the Democrats have wanted for years and guess what? They're still angry and still complaining by saying it's not enough.

The same thing will happen after years of socialism. They'll come along and say, "We still have poverty, we still have violence and we don't have enough money. Maybe we need something stronger." Communism is the next logical step. There is zero evidence to suggest that they will stop at socialism because it's not in their nature.
 
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The Cadet

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My argument is simple: The Democrats are all about control.

Who was pushing for the end of the war on drugs again? Last I checked, that wasn't the republicans. You'd think that this sort of paternalistic "we must save you from yourself" mentality would be right up the democrats' alley, but no, they're the ones pushing for reform.
Who wants criminal justice reform? Last I checked, that wasn't the republicans either. But then again, we all know that authoritarian regimes, particularly the Soviet Union, were super soft on crime.
Who was pushing for a harsher enforcement of obscenity laws? Who wants to make abortion illegal and miscarriage a criminal investigation? Who was hugely in favor of expanding the NSA, TSA, DHS, and more to "keep us safe"?

Look, while the democrats do favor a slightly larger role of government, it's not fair to claim that they're "all about control". It's simply not a reasonable position.

Over the past seven years we've had more open borders

Net illegal immigration has gone down and there are a lot more deportations under Obama than there were under Bush. I'm not sure what you mean by this.

pulled out of Iraq

After a whopping 10 years there, in which we accomplished absolutely nothing. This is not some huge democrat victory. Staying in Iraq for even longer was insane. And what does this have to do with control, exactly?

enacted Obamacare

Hey, you picked a winner! Obama's one significant legislative accomplishment. Which essentially built universal healthcare around a private market. Communism!

seen gay marriage legalized

And a major judicial achievement that has absolutely nothing to do with "government control" and doesn't reinforce your point whatsoever.

spent upward of $19 trillion

On what? No, seriously, on what? What did this $19T go towards? Towards an expensive new social security program? Towards FEMA death camps? Towards absurdly expensive tax cuts the last guy left behind, cleaning up the war and economic disaster the last guy left behind, and a bipartisan stimulus package pretty much everyone agreed was necessary to help pull out of the largest economic nosedive since 1929? And what does this say about "control", exactly? What does this say about the democratic need for ever-rising power?

raised taxes

Wait, I'm confused. Isn't this the fiscally conservative thing to do? And never mind that he also cut taxes in several places, but that doesn't really fit with the narrative, does it?

had more gun legislation

Oh wow, you mean his whopping one executive action that implemented stricter background checks and closed an obvious loophole? Wow, what a huge blow to freedom!

have seen the government take a more active role in the economy

When I think back to the last time the economy got this bad, and I think of how the government got involved back then, I can't really shake the feeling that whatever you bring up now is sort of going to pale in comparison.

This is what the Democrats have wanted for years and guess what? They're still angry and still complaining by saying it's not enough.

Most of what you brought up hardly qualifies as an "achievement"; virtually none of it points to "communism" in any way, shape, or form. While the democrats have been clamoring for more gun control, we got almost nothing - rules that should have been in place long ago that do absolutely nothing to stop people from buying or selling guns. Where the economy desperately needed more stimulus during a critical economic downturn, we were blocked at every turn. Attempts to shore up the financial sector, to prevent the kinds of abuses that got us into this mess in the first place? Stopped pretty much as far as possible.

What you seem to be complaining about is that the Democrats got a tiny handful of hard-fought victories in their platform, and are upset they couldn't accomplish more. Welcome to politics. And yet this is supposedly indicative of the Democrats wanting more more more? We had a majority in both chambers of congress, and republican filibusters ensured that almost nothing could get done.

And you know what? The Republicans have acted the same way. In 2011, they lamented not being able to push more of their agenda through during the debt ceiling debate. Except that they did so with a minority in congress. So... Yeah.

You're taking a perfectly standard gripe in politics from a party that managed to get relatively little done despite a significant legislative majority, and somehow turning it into "The democrats want total control". This is not even close to a convincing argument.

There is zero evidence to suggest that they will stop at socialism because it's not in their nature.
Germany says hi. We've been going strong for some 60 years on a social democratic system.
Or how about Denmark? France? Great Britain? Sweden? Finland? All of these countries have strong social safety nets, fairly liberal policy, and generally would consider the average Democratic politician slightly to the right of center for that country. Please explain which of these countries are about to turn into Communist dictatorships, and please - show your work.

Or, you know, maybe appealing to "their nature" is just a weak cop-out to avoid needing to make an actual argument.
 
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Sistrin

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Well... Yeah. They're wrong. If all those influential media people believed that the earth was flat, then guess what: they'd still be idiots.

Except none of them made the argument the earth was flat. Which means we have to deal with the argument actually made. From the New York Post article cited in the OP, quote:

"In the early ’70s, Sanders helped found the Liberty Union Party, which called for the nationalization of all US banks and the public takeover of all private utility companies."

...


"In 1985, he traveled to Managua to celebrate the rise to power of the Marxist-Leninist Sandinista government. He called it a “heroic revolution.” Undermining anti-communist US policy, Sanders denounced the Reagan administration’s backing of the Contra rebels in a letter to the Sandinistas."

...

"For starters, he proposes completely nationalizing our health care system and putting private health insurance and drug companies “out of business.” He also wants to break up “big banks” and control the energy industry, while providing “free” college tuition, a “living wage” and guaranteed homeownership and jobs through massive public works projects. Price tag: $18 trillion."


Do you have evidence any of this is false?

From the Forbes article, quote:

"The problem here is that the dictionary definition of “socialist” sets an almost impossibly high bar for any leader. Even Vladimir Lenin himself couldn’t meet that standard. Actually, Lenin tried to implement pure socialism when he first came to power, but when his policies caused the Russian economy to collapse all around him, in 1921 he abandoned literal socialism and replaced it with a pragmatic, expedient reform program called the “New Economic Policy.” Under NEP, Lenin permitted various privatizations while seeking state domination of the “commanding heights” of the economy.

President Obama has emulated Lenin in striving to increase state control over such “commanding heights” of our economy as energy, health care, finance, and education, with smaller forays into food,transportation and undoubtedly some areas I am overlooking."


Do you have evidence this is inaccurate?

From the CNS News article, quoting Naomi Klein:

“Naomi Klein: ‘Capitalism increasingly is a discredited system because it’s seen as system that venerates greed above all else.’

“There’s a benefit to climate discussion to name a system that lots of people already have problems with for other reasons. I don't know why it’s so important to save capitalism. It’s pretty battered brand. This focus on climate is getting us nowhere. Many, many more people recognize the need to change our economy. If climate can be our lens to catalyze this economic transformation that so many people need for other even more pressing reasons then that may be a winning combination. This economic system is failing the vast majority of people."


What system do you believe she is advocating to replace capitalism?

From the Red State article, quote:

"Bernie Sanders’ socialized medicine plan (he calls it ‘Medicare for all,’ which is precisely as horrific as it sounds*) wouldn’t just raise taxes through the roof. It would also hit working seniors particularly hard; there are about eight and a half million folks over 65 who are both on Medicare AND working, and they’d get hit with those taxes as well. Don’t you just love this wonderful economy that Barack Obama and his party have cultivated for us? It’s great stuff if you’re a crony of the Democrats; not so hot for the rest of the population."

The article cites the Sanders plan for an 8.4% tax increase on "workers." Your evidence this isn't true?

From the Daily Caller article quoting Ann Coulter:

"Liberals huffily ask why it’s so important to the Catholic Church not to pay for insurance plans that cover birth control, but the better question is: Why is it so important to liberals to force them to?"

Your answer is?

Hold the phone. Are you seriously saying that this:

"a totalitarian system of government in which a single authoritarian party controls state-owned means of production"

Describes the Democratic party?

From the News Max article cited in the OP, quote:

"Like the Democrats who want to provide coverage for all Americans, the Soviets had good intentions. They reasoned that if the government ran everything and distributed wealth equally, everyone would be happy. But like the Democrats, the Soviets were naive and shortsighted.

Under their government-run economy, Soviets had no incentive to work hard or to produce. They got paid the same regardless. Because prices of goods bore no relation to their actual cost or their value to consumers, they did not serve the normal function of regulating supply and demand.

In a free economy, if sneakers or chocolate is in short supply and in demand, their prices rise, spurring entrepreneurs to produce more. That was missing in the Soviet economy, where ponderous bureaucracies regulated supply.

As a result, entering a grocery store was like walking into a tomb."


What part of this is wrong?

Oh, so again, it's that they're simply lying about their motivations...

More often than not, that is exactly the case. From the American Spectator:

"They realize that most people will reject liberalism if it is presented honestly and transparently. If they were honest about liberalism they would lose the majority of their supporters. They lie because they have no confidence in their policies. If liberals told the truth, it would be the end of liberalism. They lie because truth does not serve them well. The truth does not help them advance their agenda.

Why does liberalism have to be a lie? At its core liberalism is itself a lie. A central, overarching belief of liberalism is that socialism and centralization of power are beneficial to societies and humanity."


Source: http://spectator.org/articles/55121/lies-and-liberalism

...never advocated a single-party system...

That is exactly what illegal immigration and amnesty is about, rewarding those who violated the law to enter the country in exchange for their vote.

Tax Refunds To Illegals Under Obama Immigration Action Would Be Stopped By Bill

"Whatever one thinks of the President Obama’s aggressive executive action on immigration—which is still being litigated in the courts—tax refunds for the affected illegal immigrants has itself become controversial. The IRS says that illegals can file and claim refunds for the last three years under the Earned Income Tax Credit. That is the same refundable tax credit that is responsible for billions in fraudulent refunds. IRS Commissioner Koskinen confirmed this, explaining the seemingly bizarre result to Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa).

What if you never reported any income or never filed a return? Under President Obama’s executive action, an illegal immigrant can: (1) get a Social Security number; (2) claim the Earned Income Tax Credit for the three open tax years; and (3) IRS sends three years of tax refunds. No matter that you never paid taxes, never filed a return, worked off the books, etc."


Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertw...action-would-be-stopped-by-bill/#666595774534

...and have never advocated authoritarianism or totalitarianism are all secret communists.

I never said they were all secret communist. What they are is big government statist with a passion for socialist ideology. As I and others have said, if you look at the history of the Democrat party nothing they achieve is ever enough. No problem is ever solved and more government control is always the only solution.
 
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The Cadet

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Except none of them made the argument the earth was flat. Which means we have to deal with the argument actually made. From the New York Post article cited in the OP, quote:

"In the early ’70s, Sanders helped found the Liberty Union Party, which called for the nationalization of all US banks and the public takeover of all private utility companies."
Except that he didn't.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Union_Party

He joined the party after it was founded, and left it not long afterwards. I can't find anything on the LUP wanting the nationalization of US banks or the public takeover of all private utility companies. What I did find was the LUP renouncing him back in 1999. Attacking Sanders for opinions he maybe held 45 years ago is not particularly impressive. Attacking the democratic party by means of its harshest outlier (a candidate who, up until right about now, ran as an independent), particularly when the party elite is doing their best to scuttle that candidate, is similarly unimpressive.

"For starters, he proposes completely nationalizing our health care system and putting private health insurance and drug companies “out of business.” He also wants to break up “big banks” and control the energy industry, while providing “free” college tuition, a “living wage” and guaranteed homeownership and jobs through massive public works projects. Price tag: $18 trillion."

The $18 Trillion price tag is nonsense, as many people have pointed out; it calculates the cost without any of the savings that come from not needing to pay for things like health insurance any more. Sanders's healthcare plan would cost $15 trillion over 10 years, but if all we had to pay for healthcare in the next 10 years was $15T, we'd save almost 2/3rds of the total projected costs under the current system. I can find absolutely no corroborating source for the claim that Sanders wants to put drug companies out of business; putting health insurance companies out of business is probably a good thing, as it removes a middle-man with virtually no value from the health-care equation. And again, Sanders is hardly representative of the mainstream democratic party.

"The problem here is that the dictionary definition of “socialist” sets an almost impossibly high bar for any leader. Even Vladimir Lenin himself couldn’t meet that standard. Actually, Lenin tried to implement pure socialism when he first came to power, but when his policies caused the Russian economy to collapse all around him, in 1921 he abandoned literal socialism and replaced it with a pragmatic, expedient reform program called the “New Economic Policy.” Under NEP, Lenin permitted various privatizations while seeking state domination of the “commanding heights” of the economy.

President Obama has emulated Lenin in striving to increase state control over such “commanding heights” of our economy as energy, health care, finance, and education, with smaller forays into food,transportation and undoubtedly some areas I am overlooking."

Once again, we have someone making this same logical argument. "When Lenin started out, he started small, with small control of the economy, with the goal of complete government control. Therefore, any small attempt to influence the economy with the government has the end goal of Leninism." Which doesn't follow, because there are a lot of good reasons why the government might want to get involved in the free market without having a goal of socialism or communism. For example, education is a public good and should be offered to everyone, as it leads to a more well-educated and thus more productive society. In any case, the argument makes no sense.

One more, then I have to get to work.

“Naomi Klein: ‘Capitalism increasingly is a discredited system because it’s seen as system that venerates greed above all else.’

“There’s a benefit to climate discussion to name a system that lots of people already have problems with for other reasons. I don't know why it’s so important to save capitalism. It’s pretty battered brand. This focus on climate is getting us nowhere. Many, many more people recognize the need to change our economy. If climate can be our lens to catalyze this economic transformation that so many people need for other even more pressing reasons then that may be a winning combination. This economic system is failing the vast majority of people."


What system do you believe she is advocating to replace capitalism?

I don't know. She has made no attempt to outline what system she supports. Simply assuming communism is, in my opinion, giving too low of an opinion of the woman - perhaps she means a social democratic system? Of course, I feel the need to point out that Klein is:
- Not a Democrat
- Not a politician
- Not even American

So... Yeah. Not sure what this is supposed to say about the party.

Okay, one more short one:

From the Daily Caller article quoting Ann Coulter:

"Liberals huffily ask why it’s so important to the Catholic Church not to pay for insurance plans that cover birth control, but the better question is: Why is it so important to liberals to force them to?"

Your answer is?

Because the employer mandate is the law, and being able to say, "My religious belief vaguely prohibits X, therefore I should not have to follow the law" is absurd. It'd be one thing if it served no secular purpose, or violated their freedom of religion, but it does neither. The reasons to "force" them to are all the reasons why the employer mandate is sensible in the first place! And that said, Coulter is being dishonest (a huge break from the norm, I know), because religious institutions are exempt, simply by virtue of their faith. Just like they're tax-exempt, simply by virtue of being religious. But allowing corporations to just ignore the law because it goes against their religion is absurd; I guarantee you every CEO will join the religion of "NoTaxIsm", with its central tenet that government control and taxation is not okay.

How about, instead of spamming a bunch of articles and asking, "Can you prove them wrong", you instead spend a little time trying to prove them right.

That is exactly what illegal immigration and amnesty is about

You always assume the most nefarious explanation, rather than any other. Despite the fact that the other is the humanitarian explanation, despite the fact that the other is the stated explanation, you insist that the opposition must be in bad faith. Never mind that this doesn't make a "one-party system" any more than Trump cratering the GOP brand would, and that you've completely missed the point of what makes a one-party system a problem (it's not just "everyone votes for one party", it's "nobody can vote for any other party"). Even taken at its absolute most cynical, this is not an argument for the democrats supporting a single-party system!

What they are is big government statist

They'd be considered center-right in most European democracies. The overton window has shifted so far to the right in the USA that anyone even proposing basic social safety net features like universal healthcare or state-sponsored colleges is now suddenly a "big government statist". Which is absurd.
 
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The Cadet

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More often than not, that is exactly the case. From the American Spectator:

"They realize that most people will reject liberalism if it is presented honestly and transparently. If they were honest about liberalism they would lose the majority of their supporters. They lie because they have no confidence in their policies. If liberals told the truth, it would be the end of liberalism. They lie because truth does not serve them well. The truth does not help them advance their agenda.

Why does liberalism have to be a lie? At its core liberalism is itself a lie. A central, overarching belief of liberalism is that socialism and centralization of power are beneficial to societies and humanity."


Source: http://spectator.org/articles/55121/lies-and-liberalism
Wow, what a well-researched, well-cited, unbiased, and entirely reasonable look at Liberalism! I'm sure absolutely nothing they say is blown way out of proportion or fabricated! There's no lies, like "A central, overarching belief of liberalism is that socialism and centralization of power are beneficial to societies and humanity", or completely reference-free claims like "Time and again their programs cost tens or hundreds of times their duplicitous projections", or baseless platitudes like "Conservatives are forthright in what their vision of society is. They are proud and transparent about what they want for society and the economy. Conservatives feel no need to disguise what their vision for society is"*.

This article does absolutely nothing to support its claims and presents a starkly partisan view of "liberalism". It's meant not to inform or enlighten, but to deepen preconceived notions and prejudices against its political opponents. Do you seriously expect anyone who doesn't already agree with the central thesis to even pay attention past the first paragraph? Or is this just throwing something out there so that you can later complain about your sources being ignored? I could write a more substantial article on how the republicans are all racists - something I don't believe but could nonetheless support better than the authors here supported the thesis of this article - in 50 words!

*This is also a total lie, by the way; anyone who still believes that conservatives are honest about their true intentions after 30 years of "trickle down" and the recent austerity policies has not been paying attention or doesn't know anything about economics.
 
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pakicetus

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@Sistrin, stop saying I "cited" news articles that I only brought up to ridicule. I did cite them, but it's misleading to say so without explaining why, since it makes it seem like I'm citing them as accurate sources of information.
 
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The Cadet

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Right, as to the rest.

From the News Max article cited in the OP, quote:

"Like the Democrats who want to provide coverage for all Americans, the Soviets had good intentions. They reasoned that if the government ran everything and distributed wealth equally, everyone would be happy. But like the Democrats, the Soviets were naive and shortsighted.

Under their government-run economy, Soviets had no incentive to work hard or to produce. They got paid the same regardless. Because prices of goods bore no relation to their actual cost or their value to consumers, they did not serve the normal function of regulating supply and demand.

In a free economy, if sneakers or chocolate is in short supply and in demand, their prices rise, spurring entrepreneurs to produce more. That was missing in the Soviet economy, where ponderous bureaucracies regulated supply.

As a result, entering a grocery store was like walking into a tomb."


What part of this is wrong?

The part where "the government introducing a basic safety net" is equivalent to communism. The part where somehow, instituting universal healthcare will rob people of their drive to better themselves (being able to afford the medication I need to stay alive is not going to buy me that new NVIDIA I want). Even a universal basic income, a step in the safety net that, thus far, no western country has been willing to try, would still allows for a capitalistic system beyond the basics of living. And of course, putting a bare minimum on demand does absolutely nothing to cap or limit supply.

Again, this is where these ridiculous conflations come in. The problem with the Soviet economy has a few main causes - artificial controls on supply, a lack of entrepreneurship due to no motivation to improve, and significant barriers to international trade. Even if we were to step up to the most radical ideas currently buzzing around the liberal political sphere, the system we would end up with would have none of those problems. Universal healthcare does not mean that I don't have to work, it just means that if some medical catastrophe befalls me, I won't end up impoverished. Basic income does not mean that I don't have to work to have a really good life, it just means that if I end up down on my luck, I can still live. A 52% income tax rate (this is Sanders's actual proposed top marginal rate) will not make me want to quit a job where I make substantially more than 10 million dollars per year!

These comparisons are bizarre. They're especially bizarre because nothing Sanders is proposing is new. It's all fairly standard stuff through most of Europe. Even in Germany, we have far more generous welfare, public housing, universal healthcare, and more, and yet we're an economic powerhouse. The comparisons to communism are completely unfounded.

From the Red State article, quote:

"Bernie Sanders’ socialized medicine plan (he calls it ‘Medicare for all,’ which is precisely as horrific as it sounds*) wouldn’t just raise taxes through the roof. It would also hit working seniors particularly hard; there are about eight and a half million folks over 65 who are both on Medicare AND working, and they’d get hit with those taxes as well. Don’t you just love this wonderful economy that Barack Obama and his party have cultivated for us? It’s great stuff if you’re a crony of the Democrats; not so hot for the rest of the population."

The article cites the Sanders plan for an 8.4% tax increase on "workers." Your evidence this isn't true?

That's his claim. He does, in fact, propose this increase. What does this have to do with communism? If you think this is bad policy, then by all means, argue against it. I'm not 100% sold on it either - an 8.4% flat tax seems like a pretty lousy way to pay for something. But does it equate to communism? Does it somehow indicate the end of capitalism as we know it?

That is exactly what illegal immigration and amnesty is about, rewarding those who violated the law to enter the country in exchange for their vote.

Tax Refunds To Illegals Under Obama Immigration Action Would Be Stopped By Bill

"Whatever one thinks of the President Obama’s aggressive executive action on immigration—which is still being litigated in the courts—tax refunds for the affected illegal immigrants has itself become controversial. The IRS says that illegals can file and claim refunds for the last three years under the Earned Income Tax Credit. That is the same refundable tax credit that is responsible for billions in fraudulent refunds. IRS Commissioner Koskinen confirmed this, explaining the seemingly bizarre result to Sen. Charles Grassley (R-Iowa).

What if you never reported any income or never filed a return? Under President Obama’s executive action, an illegal immigrant can: (1) get a Social Security number; (2) claim the Earned Income Tax Credit for the three open tax years; and (3) IRS sends three years of tax refunds. No matter that you never paid taxes, never filed a return, worked off the books, etc."


Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertw...action-would-be-stopped-by-bill/#666595774534

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/amnestybonus.asp

What Koskinen's clarification stated was that immigrants eligible under the amnesty program to claim EITC could do so by filing retroactive tax returns (i.e., submitting returns for years in which they had previously not filed at all) in addition to amending previous years' returns. But either way, claimants must still first file tax returns in order to be eligible for EITC, and they must show a documented history of earned income in order to qualify ("filers would have to reconstruct earnings and other records for years when they were not able to work on the books"). Thus, although amnestied immigrants are eligible to retroactively amend and file tax documents in order to claim earned tax credits, they may do so only within the same framework that applies to all other taxpaying Americans (no further back than three years), and no exceptional flexibility in that regard has been extended to them due to amnesty provisions introduced in November 2014.​

So not only are you assuming the absolute worst possible motives for the democratic party (never mind the moral or humanistic issues surrounding illegal immigration, their push for amnesty must be all about getting votes!), but the claims made are misleading at best, and dishonest at worst.

I never said they were all secret communist. What they are is big government statist with a passion for socialist ideology. As I and others have said, if you look at the history of the Democrat party nothing they achieve is ever enough. No problem is ever solved and more government control is always the only solution.

Sometimes, government control is the solution. When it comes to health care, government-run health care systems simply work better and cheaper than private-run ones. When the nation is stuck in a liquidity trap, or a demand-based recession in general, government works programs and investments can work wonders to help spur growth and end the depression. When work is scarce, redistributing money to the poor helps reinvigorate the economy.

That said, the idea that democrats consider "more government" to be the only solution is completely baseless.
 
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Sistrin

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Except that he didn't.

Sanders association with the Liberty Union Party is without question. The two had an easily sourced falling out which may account for the Wiki entry, however quibbling over how the New York Post described his initial association won't change the fact of Sanders association with LUP. The New York Post isn't the only media source to cite Sanders as a co-founder of the LUP.

From Ballot Access dot Org:

Vice Magazine Interviews Peter Diamondstone, Leader of Liberty Union Party of Vermont, About Bernie Sanders

Vice Magazine, which is a print and on-line magazine for youth, has this interesting interview with Peter Diamondstone. The subject is the relationship between Diamondstone and Bernie Sanders. They were founders of the Liberty Union Party of Vermont in 1971. That party is still ballot-qualified, and Diamondstone is still a leader of that party.

Source: http://ballot-access.org/2016/03/01...-union-party-of-vermont-about-bernie-sanders/

From the Vice dot com article:

The Political Party Bernie Sanders Helped Found Isn't into Him Anymore

In 1971, future presidential candidate Bernie Sanders, then a recent transplant to Vermont, joined a fledgling antiwar organization called the Liberty Union Party, a group that, according to its own website, had been founded the previous year by a motley group of 20 activists, former politicians, and "urban dropouts." Over the next six years, Sanders became the party chief and unsuccessfully ran for office several times on the Liberty Union ticket, before parting ways with the organization in in 1977. He told the press at the time that he was frustrated with the Liberty Union Party for not keeping up the fight against corporations and banks during non-election years.

Source: http://www.vice.com/read/the-vermont-political-party-bernie-sanders-founded-isnt-into-him-anymore

Following the bread crumbs will lead you to a local newspaper article in which Sanders states why he left the organization. From The Telegraph, quote:

Liberty Union Party Chief In Vermont Quite Position

Sanders, the Party's candidate for governor last year, said Tuesday he was resigning because the Liberty Union has failed to keep its promise to "remain active, on a year round basis, in the struggles of working people against the banks and corporations that own and control Vermont."

Source: https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=5HkNAAAAIBAJ&pg=5788,2134518&hl=en

But that ideal wasn't limited to Sanders.

I can't find anything on the LUP wanting the nationalization of US banks or the public takeover of all private utility companies.

Candidate for Congress criticizes plea deal for bank

Matthew Andrews, a Liberty Union Party candidate for Congress in Vermont, is calling for a vigorous prosecution of banks and bank executives who have undermined the economy by hiding $12 billion owned by 22,000 of America’s wealthiest citizens from taxation.

Speaking of solutions, Andrews said, “We need to get our money out of Wall Street and into public state banks that will loan money to create jobs and support socially responsible projects. Big banks that destabilize the economy should be nationalized in the public interest. We should not be at the mercy of private profit-seeking interests to reinvest the wealth working people have created.”


Source: http://www.libertyunionparty.org/?p=268

Liberty Union Party Sticks to Its Ideals — and Keeps Losing

Founded in 1970, the uniquely Vermont party that stakes out positions on the far-left edge of the political spectrum has no discernible impact on state or local elections. Yet its place in political history is secure. Sen. Bernie Sanders got his start on the Liberty Union ticket. He ran twice for both U.S. Senate and governor before he shed the only party affiliation he ever had — and started winning.

In the intervening decades, the Liberty Union Party has kept fielding candidates who espouse the ideals of the 1960s movements for civil rights and women's liberation and against capitalism and all U.S. military intervention oversea
s.

Source: http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/...s-ideals-and-keeps-losing/Content?oid=2445457

And finally, on control of Public Utilities, it is right there in the LUP Platform. Quote:

10. Utility and communication and transportation services, such as electricity and telephone, are necessaries of modern life which must not be priced out of the reach of any person.

Source: http://www.libertyunionparty.org/?page_id=5

How do you believe this dictate would be accomplished without takeover of private utility companies?

Attacking Sanders for opinions he maybe held 45 years ago is not particularly impressive.

Other than his opinions haven't changed over the years. However attacking someone for events long in their past is a favored Democrat Party technique. Do you not recall the Gore campaign and their 2000 election October Surprise?

Attacking the democratic party by means of its harshest outlier (a candidate who, up until right about now, ran as an independent), particularly when the party elite is doing their best to scuttle that candidate, is similarly unimpressive.

If the Democrat Party is doing their best to scuttle Sanders, they are not doing so out of some revulsion to socialist, statist ideals or how Sanders articulates them. They are doing so as part of the sacrificial ceremony continuously occurring before the altar of Hillary Clinton. Socialist ideals are perfectly fine with the Democrat Party. The establishment is only trying to ensure they are continued to be promoted and implemented by the Clinton regime.

The $18 Trillion price tag is nonsense, as many people have pointed out; it calculates the cost without any of the savings that come from not needing to pay for things like health insurance any more.

This is a joke. To equate the term savings with any policy advocated by the Democrat Party. If Sanders isn't going to bankrupt the country to the tune of $18 trillion dollars, it is because he is too late. We are already in debt to the tune of over $18 trillion dollars.

I can find absolutely no corroborating source for the claim that Sanders wants to put drug companies out of business; putting health insurance companies out of business is probably a good thing, as it removes a middle-man with virtually no value from the health-care equation. And again, Sanders is hardly representative of the mainstream democratic party.

Sanders is the mainstream of the Democrat party. Quote:

"To be sure, Sanders is older than Clinton, and he’s been an elected official for a long time. But his brand of democratic socialism was marginal in the party until now, and he’s been able to time his ascension to the national stage to the moment when the party’s base is most receptive to it. Sanders is the person of the hour in large part because he waited for the hour to emerge."

Source: https://newrepublic.com/article/129569/bernie-sanders-future-democratic-party

Once again, we have someone making this same logical argument. "When Lenin started out, he started small, with small control of the economy, with the goal of complete government control. Therefore, any small attempt to influence the economy with the government has the end goal of Leninism."

For example, education is a public good and should be offered to everyone, as it leads to a more well-educated and thus more productive society.

Yeah, about public education.

Incrementalism is the staple of authoritarians throughout history. Incrementalism is the staple of American liberalism today. The Public School system is the perfect example. Students are being graduated from the system knowing only what the government wants them to know. And now both Sanders and Clinton want to extend that policy into the college years. Every petty authoritarian ever to exist knew in order to consolidate power all that was required was to indoctrinate the children. Mold the thinking of the children early and any policy, regardless of how draconian, can be granted normalcy.

Public School Indoctrination

Earlier this month, the left-leaning California State Legislature overwhelmingly passed The FAIR Education Act (SB 48) and has sent the bill on Governor Jerry Brown for what will surely be a celebratory signing. The FAIR Education Act is the seventh sexual indoctrination law to teach the state’s children to regard homosexuality, transsexuality (sex-changes operations) and bisexuality as good and natural. This is another in an impressive string of legal victories by gay activists. On the other hand, it further fuels a growing national discontent with public education.

Among the bill’s provisions are that textbooks and instructional materials must positively promote “lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender Americans” as role models and that children as young as 6 will be taught to admire homosexuality, same-sex “marriages,” bisexuality, and transsexuality.

Teachers, even those with religious objections to the gay life style, will be made to positively portray homosexuality, same-sex “marriages,” bisexuality, and transsexuality, because to be silent can bring the charge of “reflecting adversely.” School boards will be required to select textbooks and other instructional materials that positively portray sex-change operations and same-sex “marriages,” because to be silent on these subjects opens them up to charges of “reflecting adversely.” Finally, parents will not be notified, nor will they be able to exempt their children, from this new core curriculum.


Source: http://www.crisismagazine.com/2011/public-school-indoctrination

Islam in America's public schools: Education or indoctrination?

  • Last month, students at Friendswood Junior High in Houston were required to attend an "Islamic Awareness" presentation during class time allotted for physical education. The presentation involved two representatives from the Council on American-Islamic Relations, an organization with a record of Islamist statements and terrorism convictions. According to students, they were taught that "there is one God, his name is Allah" and that "Adam, Noah and Jesus are prophets." Students were also taught about the Five Pillars of Islam and how to pray five times a day and wear Islamic religious garb. Parents were not notified about the presentation and it wasn't until a number of complaints arose that school officials responded with an apologetic e-mail.
  • Earlier this year at Lake Brantley High School in Seminole County, Fla., speakers from the Academy for Learning Islam gave a presentation to students about "cultural diversity" that extended to a detailed discussion of the Quran and Islam. The school neither screened the ALI speakers nor notified parents. After a number of complaints, local media coverage and a subsequent investigation, the school district apologized for the inappropriate presentation, admitting that it violated the law. Subsequently, ALI was removed from the Seminole County school system's Dividends and Speaker's Bureau.
  • As reported by the Cabinet Press, a school project last year at Amherst Middle School transformed "the quaint colonial town of Amherst, N.H., into a Saudi Arabian Bedouin tent community." Male and female students were segregated, with the girls hosting "hijab and veil stations" and handing out the oppressive head-to-toe black garment known as the abaya to female guests. Meanwhile, the boys hosted food and Arabic dancing stations because, as explained in the article, "the traditions of Saudi Arabia at this time prevent women from participating in these public roles." An "Islamic religion station" offered up a prayer rug, verses from the Quran, prayer items and a compass pointed towards Mecca. The fact that female subjugation was presented as a benign cultural practice and Islamic religious rituals were promoted with public funds is cause for concern.
Source: http://www.sfgate.com/politics/article/Islam-in-America-s-public-schools-Education-or-2482820.php

Of course, I feel the need to point out that Klein is:
- Not a Democrat - Not a politician - Not even American

So... Yeah. Not sure what this is supposed to say about the party.

Read over her website or her Wiki page. She is the Democrat Party.

Because the employer mandate is the law, and being able to say, "My religious belief vaguely prohibits X, therefore I should not have to follow the law" is absurd.

What is absurd is your disingenuous attempt to twist both reality and the truth. The employer mandate provision of the Affordable Care Act targeted Catholic institutions intentionally and religious based objectors by default. It was an attempt to force the Church to violate its religious principles. To the American left at large, religious principles don't matter. Unless you are a murdering psychopath shouting Allah Ackbar as you gun down scores of innocent people. That aside, from CNN:

"Under the law, churches and houses of worships are exempt from the contraception mandate.

But other nonprofit religious-affiliated groups, such as church-run hospitals, parochial schools and charities like the Little Sisters of the Poor, must either provide no-cost contraception coverage or have a third-party insurer provide separate benefits without the employer's direct involvement.

These organizations are all seeking delays around the employer-contraception requirement, saying in their court filing it would force them "to choose between onerous penalties or becoming complicit in a grave moral wrong."


Source: http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.co...p-from-healthcare-laws-contraception-mandate/

The issue isn't and never was whether a Catholic woman used birth control. The issue was forcing Catholic institutions, and any other business whose owners and operators may have objected on religious grounds, to provide free birth control by mandate of the government. The question stands, why was that so important to the liberal left?

It'd be one thing if it served no secular purpose, or violated their freedom of religion, but it does neither.

It most certainly does violate the free practice of their religion. Forcing people to act in a particular manner which violates their religious beliefs is restricting their freedom of religion.

The reasons to "force" them to are all the reasons why the employer mandate is sensible in the first place! ...religious institutions are exempt, simply by virtue of their faith. Just like they're tax-exempt, simply by virtue of being religious. But allowing corporations to just ignore the law because it goes against their religion is absurd; I guarantee you every CEO will join the religion of "NoTaxIsm", with its central tenet that government control and taxation is not okay.

The tax exempt status of churches isn't the issue nor is their exemption from being forced to provide birth control. Churches are not medical facilities. However the Catholic Church owns and operates a number of medical facilities and sponsors a number of charitable organizations which do provide health services. The issue is the government stepping in and mandating those services include provisions which would violate long established religious traditions and principles of the church.

With all due respect the "NoTaxIsm" illustration is inane.

You always assume the most nefarious explanation...

Concerning the issue of illegal immigration and amnesty the goal, for the Democrat Party, is and always has been the creation of a dedicated voter base eventually large enough to ensure perpetual Democrat rule. As one supporting example read "The Emerging Democratic Majority by John Judis and Ruy Teixeira, published in 2002. They boasted in this book that within a couple of decades immigrants, both legal and illegal, would provide the Democrat Party with an "insurmountable majority" of voters. This was the ultimate goal of Ted Kennedy's 1965 Immigration Act.

They'd be considered center-right in most European democracies. The overton window has shifted so far to the right in the USA that anyone even proposing basic social safety net features like universal healthcare or state-sponsored colleges is now suddenly a "big government statist". Which is absurd.

Universal healthcare and state funded college represent government control of healthcare and higher education. As a vet I have some experience in dealing with government healthcare. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone, let alone force it upon everyone. If we allow the government to take over higher education then higher education for all but a small percentage of the population will cease to exist.
 
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The Cadet

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First of all, I feel the need to commend you on your thoroughness. You're one of the few people here who really takes the time to back up your arguments with relevant sources, and I really appreciate that. I may disagree with you on just about everything, but you make a very strong case for yourself.

At least, when you, you know, try. Half the time you don't; you just make baseless assertions and argue off the basis of complete non-sequiturs. But thanks for dredging up the links on the LUP for me.

10. Utility and communication and transportation services, such as electricity and telephone, are necessaries of modern life which must not be priced out of the reach of any person.

Source: http://www.libertyunionparty.org/?page_id=5

How do you believe this dictate would be accomplished without takeover of private utility companies?

Price controls (terrible idea), vouchers (considerably better idea), government programs... There are ways other than government takeover, although I'm not going to claim that that's not what they're going for given their other positions.

If the Democrat Party is doing their best to scuttle Sanders, they are not doing so out of some revulsion to socialist, statist ideals or how Sanders articulates them. They are doing so as part of the sacrificial ceremony continuously occurring before the altar of Hillary Clinton. Socialist ideals are perfectly fine with the Democrat Party. The establishment is only trying to ensure they are continued to be promoted and implemented by the Clinton regime.

This, on the other hand, is backed by absolutely nothing. Many of the critiques of Sanders involve the fact that he is, in fact, "too radical" to win. That his positions are unpopular and could not win the election. That he's too far to the left, and that a more moderate candidate like Clinton would be a better choice.

This is a joke. To equate the term savings with any policy advocated by the Democrat Party. If Sanders isn't going to bankrupt the country to the tune of $18 trillion dollars, it is because he is too late. We are already in debt to the tune of over $18 trillion dollars.

There's nothing here even resembling a coherent argument against my point though. Look, it's simple. If my plan costs 15 trillion dollars to achieve goal X, and we are already spending 45 trillion dollars to achieve goal X right now, then there's no buts about it - my plan saves money. Even if the 15 trillion dollars comes in the form of taxes and the 45 trillion came in the form of expenditures on the private market. Simply appealing to the total cost is nonsensical. And trying to claim that the country is going bankrupt when interest rates on its debt is at an all-time low - when people are basically saying, "I'd rather have you hold on to my money for 20 years for almost no profit than have it be cash" - is simply absurd. You cannot go bankrupt when people are throwing money at you like that. Not without explicitly trying to, anyways.

Yeah, about public education.

No. I'm sorry. You can point to all the ways public education has gone wrong. You can point to individual schools teaching absolute nonsense - schools that go way over the line with Islam, schools that teach that communism has merit, even schools that teach creationism. The fact of the matter is that public education is fundamentally necessary, and attacking it as a tool of totalitarianism is not just a slap in the face of every teacher I have ever met, but it's just wrong. Look, the fact of the matter is that many people simply cannot educate their own children. They may lack the intellect or they may lack the time, but they simply cannot do it. Without public education, we end up stuck with a permanent underclass; people whose parents were too poor to give them a decent education, so they were too stupid to get a decent job. It almost doesn't matter what problems you point to; they are both solveable and considerably less ruinous than the consequences of no schooling.

Read over her website or her Wiki page. She is the Democrat Party.

*sigh*

Again: she is not a democratic politician. She's not even a democratic voter! If her interests align with the party in some aspects, it still has virtually nothing to say about the state of the party, and it does not imply that the party aligns with her in all interests.


The issue isn't and never was whether a Catholic woman used birth control. The issue was forcing Catholic institutions, and any other business whose owners and operators may have objected on religious grounds, to provide birth control by mandate of the government. The question stands, why was that so important to the liberal left?

Because, fundamentally, birth control is medicine. This is not my opinion, this is the opinion of gynecologists and doctors the world over. Not covering the pill in your insurance policy means simply ignoring the needs of any female policy-holders. Again, the fact that certain institutions call themselves religious in nature should not give them free hand to ignore the law! If my religion demands the consumption of cannabis because the flying spaghetti monster wants me to have the munchies, I should not get a free pass when the DEA comes knocking!

The employer mandate provision of the Affordable Care Act targeted Catholic institutions intentionally and religious based objectors by default. It was an attempt to force the Church to violate its religious principles.

Prove it.

You're ascribing intent. Please prove that this was the goal they had in mind when they made the law. If you're going to automatically claim that what they planned was to trample all over these people's religious freedoms, rather than any other possible motivation (such as those stated), then I expect you to be able to prove it.

You keep on doing this. You keep on saying, "The left does X because Y", and in doing so, you choose the least charitable things possible. The left opposes voter ID law not because they believe voter fraud to be a non-issue and because 10% of the country lacks photo ID, but because they want to abuse voter fraud! The left wants an employer mandate not because it's a functional system that helps share the burden of insuring employees, but because they really want to stick it to religious types! And so on, and so forth. So prove it. Provide evidence that that was there intention, or kindly stop making the claim.

It most certainly does violate the free practice of their religion. Forcing people to act in a particular manner which violates their religious beliefs is restricting their freedom of religion.

If my religion demands that I smoke pot every day, should I be immune from existing drug laws? If my religion considers taxation a sin, should I be reprimanded for not paying my taxes? How far does this go, exactly? How many of the laws of the land can I violate in the name of my religion? And how unreasonable can I be in doing so?

Universal healthcare and state funded college represent government control of healthcare and higher education.

Universal healthcare works.

This should not be a controversial statement. Israel. Germany. Great Britain. Canada. Denmark. Sweden. Norway. Netherlands. France. Countless first-world countries pull it off, and they do better than the USA both in terms of pricing and results. If the USA can't pull it off, chances are good it's because the USA doesn't want to pull it off, because half the country sees government as "always the problem, never the solution".

And you know what? There's nothing about state-funded colleges that implies government control over curriculum. Germany has state-funded colleges and the curriculum is entirely independent. Why is this somehow an impossible pipe dream in the USA? Why is it so impossible to make such simple things happen? Why is it that every time the idea comes up, "Hey, we could make things better with the help of the government," the immediate response is to scream bloody murder and pretend the government is entirely incapable? Could it be that maybe, just maybe, one of the parties is intentionally sabotaging the government? That it might be a bad idea to elect people to government who hold the philosophy that government fundamentally cannot work?

If we allow the government to take over higher education then higher education for all but a small percentage of the population will cease to exist.

And coming to the end of your post, all I have to say is "wat". This is just nonsense. I'm sorry, it literally makes no sense.
 
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Sistrin

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First of all, I feel the need to commend you on your thoroughness. You're one of the few people here who really takes the time to back up your arguments with relevant sources, and I really appreciate that. I may disagree with you on just about everything, but you make a very strong case for yourself.

I appreciate the sentiment. And the fact you are actually willing to engage as opposed to hiding behind the ignore feature.

At least, when you, you know, try. Half the time you don't; you just make baseless assertions and argue off the basis of complete non-sequiturs.

I make my assertions based on experience, observation, and/or research. I understand you and others may not agree, but as for the effectiveness of the arguments, we shall see. For example:

This, on the other hand, is backed by absolutely nothing.

It is backed by the fact the Clinton Machine has been in operation for an extended period of our nation's recent history. As a result there exist a clear history to be examined. That history is one perpetually characterized by lie, corruption, and a megalomaniacal thirst for power. The trail of dead littering the Clinton path to dominance, both metaphorically and literally, predates Vince Foster. It is true that in 2008 the Democrat Party abandoned Hillary for the new bright shiny object, but that will not happen this election cycle in regard to Sanders. As I have said before, Sanders will never be allowed to win the Democrat nomination. They will find him under a cannon in Fort Marcy Park before that happens.

Or they will just use the system rigged to ensure her victory.

BERNIE SANDERS WINS NEW HAMPSHIRE, BUT HILLARY CLINTON GETS ALL THE DELEGATES

Last night seemed like a runaway success for "outsider" candidate Bernie Sanders. He beat Hillary Clinton by a solid twenty points, in every single demographic. He made it next to impossible for Hillary Clinton to say that she's won the "hearts" or "minds" of New Englanders, and while he's definitely had home court advantage, he performed better than even he could have reasonably expected.

But while Bernie may have earned all the accolades, Hillary Clinton - not Bernie Sanders - will come away with most of the New Hampshire's delegates.

And you thought politics was fair? Shame on you.


Source: http://spectator.org/blog/65443/bernie-sanders-wins-new-hampshire-hillary-clinton-gets-all-delegates

This little fact should bother everyone, let alone those with even a passing interest in fair elections and the will of the people. Sanders defeats Clinton by 20 points, yet she comes away from the state with more delegates. Members of the American left are constantly wailing about the evil cabal of Republicans and their vast conspiracy to suppress the vote of everyone they hate, but apparently rendering the vote superfluous to the will of the few is perfectly acceptable.

Sanders takes two of three primaries but Hillary wins more delegates

After all, on the GOP side Ted Cruz and Donald Trump each won two contests, while among Democrats it was Bernie Sanders who won two of the night's contests as Hillary Clinton netted one victory.

Source: http://nysepost.com/sanders-takes-two-of-three-primaries-but-hillary-wins-more-146817

Sanders can't win, even when he wins. The Democrat party elite have rigged the system; the “superdelegates” will provide Shrillary the nomination rendering the will of the voters all but meaningless.

Many of the critiques of Sanders involve the fact that he is, in fact, "too radical" to win. That his positions are unpopular and could not win the election. That he's too far to the left, and that a more moderate candidate like Clinton would be a better choice.

Where is the appreciable difference between the political positions of Sanders and Clinton?

Bernie Sanders on:

Abortion is a woman's unrestricted right
Strongly Agrees

Stricter punishment reduces crime
Strongly Disagrees

Legally require hiring women & minorities
Strongly Agrees

Absolute right to gun ownership
Neutral/No Opinion

Comfortable with same-sex marriage
Strongly Agrees

Expand Obamacare
Strongly Agrees

Keep God in the public sphere
Strongly Disagrees

Vouchers for School Choice
Strongly Disagrees

EPA regulations are too restrictive
Strongly Disagrees

Prioritize green energy
Strongly Agrees

Make voter registration easier
Strongly Agrees

Marijuana is a gateway drug
Strongly Disagrees


Hillary Clinton on:

Abortion is a woman's unrestricted right
Strongly Agrees

Stricter punishment reduces crime
Disagrees

Legally require hiring women & minorities
Strongly Agrees

Absolute right to gun ownership
Strongly Disagrees

Comfortable with same-sex marriage
Strongly Agrees

Expand Obamacare
Strongly Agrees

Keep God in the public sphere
Disagrees

Vouchers for School Choice
Strongly Disagrees

EPA regulations are too restrictive
Strongly Disagrees

Prioritize green energy
Strongly Agrees

Make voter registration easier
Strongly Agrees

Marijuana is a gateway drug
Disagrees


Source: http://presidential-candidates.insidegov.com/compare/35-40/Bernie-Sanders-vs-Hillary-Clinton

Campaign proposals of Hillary Clinton, Bernie Sanders compared

http://www.dispatch.com/content/stories/insight/2016/03/06/01-clinton-sanders-compared.html

From issue to issue, there isn't an appreciable difference.


Look, it's simple. If my plan costs 15 trillion dollars to achieve goal X, and we are already spending 45 trillion dollars to achieve goal X right now, then there's no buts about it - my plan saves money. Even if the 15 trillion dollars comes in the form of taxes and the 45 trillion came in the form of expenditures on the private market.

What exactly are we spending 45 Trillion dollars on? College education over a ten year period?

However your plan ignores a number of factors, the same factors apparently being ignored by the Democrat candidates battling over who can out promise the other. There exist no endless supply of money to fund the programs being proposed. The Democrat and Republican Parties are famous for claiming to save money from source A and then immediately spending it on program B. The programs proposed will only add to the deficit. From the Examiner dot com:

"Bernie Sanders’ economic plan spends $18 trillion and raises taxes by $10 trillion. That leaves an $8 trillion dollar gap, spread over 10 years, increasing deficit and debt at a time when they are already going up. Sanders says he wants to “tax speculation on Wall Street” to pay for his gift of free college for all. But what happens when you raise taxes on investments in things like stocks, mutual funds and bonds? Investors will decide to put their money elsewhere… in investments that will not be subject to such high taxes. When the size of the investment speculation pot decreases, there will be less to tax, which means less money available for the free college fund."

"The Tax Foundation estimates that under Sanders’ tax plan, within 10 years, the economy would be 10% smaller than it is today. Again, smaller economy, less tax revenue, which means less money being collected by the government."

"USNEWS.com estimates that it could cost $70 billion per year for “free” college."


Source: http://www.examiner.com/article/bernie-sanders-plan-for-free-college-the-numbers-don-t-add-up

As for attempting to control the spending and deficit problem, both economist and elected officials have been claiming for years the cycle may be close to a catastrophic end.

Rep. Dave Brat: Deficit Is So Huge, ‘It’s Over’ in 11 Years

"Rep. Brat agreed the process is a problem and outlined specifically just how bad things are.

“If the people don’t know, under Republican leadership, the deficit this year is going up for the first time since ’09 to $105 billion. It’s going up to $540 billion. That’s a half a trillion dollars,” Rep. Brat said. “And the biggest problem is the unfunded liability piece — the Medicare, Social Security, Medicaid, etc. In 11 years, all federal revenues will go to those mandatory programs. There won’t be one dollar for the military or running government, transportation, education . . . nothing. And you can go to CBO. The main graph is sitting right there. In 11 years, it’s over.”


Source: http://www.glennbeck.com/2016/02/29/rep-dave-brat-the-deficit-so-huge-its-over-in-11-years/

From the CBO website, quote:

"CBO estimates that the 2016 deficit will be $544 billion, raising debt held by the public to 76 percent of GDP–the highest level in over fifty years. By 2026, under current law, the debt is projected to reach 86 percent of GDP.

CBO expects the economy’s output to increase by 2.7 percent this year and 2.5 percent in 2017, but it anticipates slower growth in subsequent years, mainly because of slow growth in the labor supply."


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Source: https://www.cbo.gov/

The CBO is even predicting the percentage of the federal debt held by the public will exceed 100 percent by the year 2040. They cite this as a trend "that could not be sustained indefinitely."

Sanders, Clinton, and/or whoever the Republican President may be can tax, borrow, and spend, but the US Government does not invest, it does not create wealth. You mention expenditures in the private market, but if input from the private sector comprises less of overall GDP, the GDP growth suffers. I try and follow economist George Gilder because I believe he is proficient in the field and isn't afraid to state what he thinks. His recent comments from an exchange with fellow economist Bill Walton were, I thought, telling. Quote:

“Well, the narrative is,” interjected Walton, “that everything blew up because of greedy bankers. I think you have a different theory.”

“I mean, everything blew up because of an effort to guarantee outcomes, to guarantee returns, and that prohibits learning,” says Gilder. “And unless there’s learning going on, there’s no growth going on.”

“So, by prohibiting learning,” Gilder continued, “learning depends on experiments that can fail. If the experiments are guaranteed, they can’t yield a real return, and so, they’re just exercises of government power … .”


Source: http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael...-banishing-economic-knowledge-and-information

If either Sanders, or your, plan requires raising another 15 trillion dollars to implement, the return will, at least when acknowledging history, be negligible. Both Clinton and Sanders are engaged in another exercise in government power.

Speaking of which...

No. I'm sorry. You can point to all the ways public education has gone wrong. You can point to individual schools teaching absolute nonsense - schools that go way over the line with Islam, schools that teach that communism has merit, even schools that teach creationism. The fact of the matter is that public education is fundamentally necessary...

Public education is necessary. My opinion is the Federal Government should have stayed out of it. The examples I cited are not restricted to a few individual states or districts, they represent a philosophy endemic to the system.

...and attacking it as a tool of totalitarianism is not just a slap in the face of every teacher I have ever met, but it's just wrong.

Yeah, well, when it comes to extolling the virtues of public school teachers you are talking to the wrong guy. I have an autistic son which the oh-so dedicated members of the public school teaching profession have attempted to toss around like the proverbial hot potato because he increased their work load, or made their jobs more difficult. In other words they didn't want to waste their time attempting to teach a student when it actually required work, and it took a law suit to force them to. I can't go into details at the moment but now that he is older I have another of his wonderful teachers up on charges, the nature of which would make national news if I chose to go public. Spare me the joyous exultation of teacher altruism, for if there is one thing I have learned conclusively in dealing with the public school system it is a teacher's concern for the education and welfare of their student's ends where concerns for their workload and paycheck begins.

As for the potential totalitarian nature of the Common Core curriculum, a percentage of the teachers tasked with teaching it wouldn't be able to recognize that nature, a percentage would either agree or just go along, and a percentage would remain silent. There are a few speaking out, but they are in the minority.

Personally, I love this woman:


Look, the fact of the matter is that many people simply cannot educate their own children.

For one reason they are products themselves of the public school system.

They may lack the intellect or they may lack the time, but they simply cannot do it. Without public education, we end up stuck with a permanent underclass...

We already have a permanent underclass, by design. Now the American left wants to continue to expand it via immigration policy.

...people whose parents were too poor to give them a decent education, so they were too stupid to get a decent job. It almost doesn't matter what problems you point to; they are both solveable and considerably less ruinous than the consequences of no schooling.

I agree in essence. Education is the solution to many problems. However who controls the content of that education is key.

Because, fundamentally, birth control is medicine. This is not my opinion, this is the opinion of gynecologists and doctors the world over. Not covering the pill in your insurance policy means simply ignoring the needs of any female policy-holders.

Where is either the right or the guarantee of free birth control provided to female policy holders articulated?

Again, the fact that certain institutions call themselves religious in nature should not give them free hand to ignore the law!

The Constitution specifies the free exercise of religion beginning with the words "Congress shall make no law." The right to challenge or ignore such a law infringing on that right is explicit.

If my religion demands the consumption of cannabis because the flying spaghetti monster wants me to have the munchies, I should not get a free pass when the DEA comes knocking!

You can't murder someone and then claim religious exception either. Even those who crafted the Constitution recognized obvious limits. A religious institution resisting being forced to provide free birth control does not remotely equate to your example.

You're ascribing intent. Please prove that this was the goal they had in mind when they made the law.

Charging for a product does not equate to denying that product to customers. The Catholic Church has made no effort to deny women birth control, the church just doesn't want the government mandating they provide it for free. Particularly given birth control pills average about twenty dollars a month in cost. If what I say is wrong, then why does the mandate include for the provision of "morning after" pills, a device the church at large considers a form of abortion?

Due to time constraints I must stop here.
 
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The Cadet

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The trail of dead littering the Clinton path to dominance, both metaphorically and literally, predates Vince Foster

Glad I wasn't drinking something when I read this. Three separate investigations confirmed that Foster's death was a suicide. The man was clinically depressed. The Clintons did not kill Vince Foster, and I'd like to think such absurd conspiracy theories are beneath you. What's next, the Obama administration whacked Andrew Breitbart?


This is less a problem of Clinton particularly and more a problem of the democratic nomination process. Superdelegates are a problem, but do you really think that they'd go for Sanders if the opponent wasn't Clinton? Say what you will about Obama, but at least he was a Democrat. Sanders ran as an independent for most of his political career, and only now is jumping to the democratic ticket. Is it any surprise the party elite is circling the wagon? I'm not going to say this is a good thing (indeed, it's short-sighted, stupid, and unlikely to drive up participation in the general election among those who feel utterly disenfranchised by it), but it's hardly evidence that the Clintons control the democratic party or something like that.

Where is the appreciable difference between the political positions of Sanders and Clinton?

Primarily? I'd say that Sanders self-identifies (incorrectly) as a socialist, and Clinton, up until recently, was something of a chickenhawk. Her record is far more conservative than her current campaign makes it out to be, and while Sanders is getting by almost exclusively on small individual donations, Clinton has a lot of major financial backers. This may not seem like much, but that last point really does make Sanders a very radical candidate in the modern political world.

What exactly are we spending 45 Trillion dollars on? College education over a ten year period?

Health care over a ten year period. 42 Trillion, actually, but yeah.

There exist no endless supply of money to fund the programs being proposed. The Democrat and Republican Parties are famous for claiming to save money from source A and then immediately spending it on program B.

While this is normally a valid complaint, there's not really much room for us to "take those savings", because the expenditure, first and foremost, is coming from the private sector.


I have little issue with the claim that Sanders's numbers don't add up. I've heard this from numerous policy wonks on both sides of the aisle - they don't quite work. That's something that can be worked on, though, and it at least offers a somewhat realistic model, even if it is one that doesn't quite work just yet (unlike, say, Trump's plan, which basically can be summed up with "no really guys, the Laffer Curve will save us all!" and will never work without essentially junking it and starting over).

That said, the Tax Foundation claim about a 10% drop in GDP is nuts. They make the same mistake the WSJ made - calculating the cost while ignoring the benefit. They calculate the negative effects of the tax increase, while ignoring that at the same time, people will have more money because they won't be paying for private health insurance any more. They also treat removing a tax credit which will no longer apply as a tax increase. There are some real problems with this analysis.

The CBO is even predicting the percentage of the federal debt held by the public will exceed 100 percent by the year 2040. They cite this as a trend "that could not be sustained indefinitely."

This is probably not inaccurate. That said, the idea that this will become unsustainable within the next two decades seems implausible. The USA is not exactly breaking records with its debt to GDP ratio, and US debt is still a really hot commodity among people looking for a safe investment - because it is a safe investment, among the safest there are, and there's not much evidence that that's going to change any time soon. Given that the cite you give is from Glenn Beck, you'll have to exclude my incredulity.

but the US Government does not invest, it does not create wealth

Wait, what?

Okay, the first obvious example that comes to mind are the green energy loans the government gave out as part of the stimulus. Not only is that program in the black, but it's really hard to argue that this wasn't: A) an investment and B) wealth creation. To put it simply, the only major difference between this program and a private loan program is that the government was looking for a specific type of client and was willing to take more risks and put up with lower profit margins.

If either Sanders, or your, plan requires raising another 15 trillion dollars to implement, the return will, at least when acknowledging history, be negligible.

Okay, so just to be clear, your main source here is: "George Gilder, co-founder of the Discovery Institute".

...Look, far from me to attack the messenger, but unless we're talking about a different Discovery Institute, this guy has absolutely no business being in any serious policy discussion whatsoever. But whatever, let's look to his arguments:

....There don't appear to be any arguments presented. Mostly just vague assertions with nothing to back them up. So kind of a dead end.

Where is either the right or the guarantee of free birth control provided to female policy holders articulated?

From what I can tell it's not actually in the law passed by congress. Rather, it's within the numerous related resolutions, based on the recommendations of the Institute of Medicine, who recommended the pill as part of basic preventative health care. I'm not exactly a buff on the legislation, you'll have to excuse me on that one.

You can't murder someone and then claim religious exception either. Even those who crafted the Constitution recognized obvious limits.

Wait, what? You just said:

The Constitution specifies the free exercise of religion beginning with the words "Congress shall make no law." The right to challenge or ignore such a law infringing on that right is explicit.

Look, it's simple. Either my faith-based beliefs can get me preferential treatment and the ability to ignore laws that violate those beliefs, or they can't. The RCC thinks that being forced to pay for a product for their employees that includes the option to acquire something that violates their doctrine is an infringement on their civil liberties. Is that legitimate? And if not, how about the Christian Scientists, who believe that all medicine goes against Church doctrine? How about the Witnesses, and their prohibition on blood transfusions?

Charging for a product does not equate to denying that product to customers. The Catholic Church has made no effort to deny women birth control, the church just doesn't want the government mandating they provide it for free. Particularly given birth control pills average about twenty dollars a month in cost. If what I say is wrong, then why does the mandate include for the provision of "morning after" pills, a device the church at large considers a form of abortion?

This doesn't have anything to do with the intent, though. The reason these provisions are included is because independent analysis has concluded that they are in fact an integral part of women's health care, both as a prophylactic and as a therapy for certain ailments. You claimed that it was the intent of these laws to target the RCC; I find that claim ludicrous. You keep ascribing the worst possible motivation to actions by the democrats, and I'm sorry, but that's just not reasonable. The world is not made up of cartoon villains. Most people find ways to justify things to themselves, even if they're wrong. Even if they're on the wrong side of things, they generally are there for the right reasons.

Public education is necessary. My opinion is the Federal Government should have stayed out of it. The examples I cited are not restricted to a few individual states or districts, they represent a philosophy endemic to the system.

Except the examples you cited are all on the state or local level. There's no federal mandate from on high saying "invite CAIR into your school" or "ensure that LGBT kids have positive role models and aren't demonized". Those were all at the state or local level. What does that have to do with the federal government, exactly? Keep it at the state level, and Cali is still passing the FAIR act.
 
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Thanks for your reply. ATM I have sick children at home but I will respond in time.
No biggie, I took my time responding as well.

By the way, this is something I didn't mention in the above post, but I'm sorry for your experience with the public school system and your child. That sounds really, really unfortunate. My experience (at least in the USA) was pretty negative as well - I was bullied a lot, and there wasn't much they could do about it. They had great special ed, though.
 
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