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Hey, Atheists...

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partinobodycular

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It's almost like folks don't even know what philosophy is any more as a professional, historical set of fields.

I confess, that's me in a nutshell. :wave: Nevertheless I love philosophy. I'm just not as educated in it as most people are. So take everything that I say with a grain of salt... it's not meant to be taken seriously... well, not too seriously.

In any case bear with me while I muddle through this. These discussions aren't meant to educate you, or @RamiC, or anybody else, they're meant to educate me. You're on your own.

We cannot have science to establish truth, because the question of what truth is is beyond the capacity of science.

To me that's simply an attempt at philosophical gobbledygook. But allow me to ask a couple of questions.

Is truth objective?

If it is, then do we need philosophy to define it, or will science be able to differentiate truth from non-truth even if it's incapable of labeling them as such?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I confess, that's me in a nutshell. :wave: Nevertheless I love philosophy. I'm just not as educated in it as most people are. So take everything that I say with a grain of salt... it's not meant to be taken seriously... well, not too seriously.

In any case bear with me while I muddle through this. These discussions aren't meant to educate you, or @RamiC, or anybody else, they're meant to educate me. You're on your own.
Ok
To me that's simply an attempt at philosophical gobbledygook. But allow me to ask a couple of questions.

Is truth objective?
Truth is hard to come by and our discernment of it depends on what it is we're attempting to engage through our human perceptions and rational capacities. Moreover, "objectivity" is a multi-faceted concept, so we can't really just slip it into a conversation and think we're fully qualifying "how" any truth can be identified by mentioning it in passing.
If it is, then do we need philosophy to define it, or will science be able to differentiate truth from non-truth even if it's incapable of labeling them as such?

Making an "evaluation" about anything in the world is at the very core of Philosophy itself, and to define a term or to categorize a thing is to undertake one kind of Philosophy. In fact, much of Philosophy is an analytic extension of human language.

As for the Sciences, they are a more modern form of applied philosophy but typically trade in provisional truth rather than absolute truth. We have to ask ourselves, 'what is science' anyway?

Do we all have to become professional, math working technocrats in order to discern any of the truths that are important for any of us to survive and continue on our lives? I don't think we do. No, we can use our rational capacities and apply Critical Thinking (~Philosophy).
 
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Hans Blaster

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Oh I believe minds exist, I just do not believe that psychology is a true science. Neurology is, as I said, I did not say minds do not matter.

I have nothing against psychology either, as some sort of healing art with mixed results. It can be very helpful, but then I believe a lot of things that are not scientific can.

You might think that if it is not science it is not worth anything, I do not.

You are mistaking it for "therapy" or "psychiatry" which are forms of healing as is neurology which is a subfield of medicine.

Psychology and neuroscience are sciences.
 
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stevevw

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The entire premise of psychology is that we have an independent mind that has control over our behaviour and our place in the world. That positive thinking is better than negative thinking. That cognitive behavioural therapy can change your mindset.

If not then there is no such thing as psychology. There could be no advice as to changing things. All psychologist could do was tell their clients that this is evolution and you have to accept that you cannot control whats happening. Its all deterministic.
 
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Bradskii

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If not then there is no such thing as psychology. There could be no advice as to changing things. All psychologist could do was tell their clients that this is evolution and you have to accept that you cannot control whats happening. Its all deterministic.
You can't control anything? But you make decisions, surely. Give us an example of a decision you made and tell us why you made it.
 
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RamiC

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Psychology and neuroscience are sciences.
I believe that psychology is wrongly regarded as a science. I would hope that as a genuine real scientist (which I believe you are) you are not going to argue that a widely held belief is enough to make some notion right. Surely we would not know any accurate thing in physics if that was how it was done?

Neuroscience is science, yes.
 
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RamiC

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The entire premise of psychology is that we have an independent mind that has control over our behaviour and our place in the world.
Again I ask, proof of the existence of the mind using modern scientific methods please?

Otherwise this thing called psychology is not science, I am not saying it does not exist, I am saying to call it science is a category error.
 
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stevevw

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You can't control anything? But you make decisions, surely. Give us an example of a decision you made and tell us why you made it.
Lets take phobias. A phobia is unreal thinking about something ie the dark, heights, going into crowed places ect. These stop someone making decisions about what they can and cannot do.

The idea of CBT is to identify the unreal thinking with rationality and to then slowly expose the person to their phobias so the spell is broken and then can then have more control over their lives. They can then face the darkness, and crowds ect.

They are no longer restricted and are more free to live their life. So the phobia or unreal feelings or beliefs are no longer controlling the person but the person is controlling things by reorientating their thinking. They can put the feeling in the unreal basket and move on.

This same therapy works with non phobias and just everyday psychological problems ie overcoming anger and anxiety by revealing the unreality of their feelings or beliefs ect. They then see things in proper perspective and this can help them move on. Therapy saves marriages and relationships that were on a trajectory to breakdown.

I think the best examples are those where psychology (the state of mind) is the destinguishing factor over all else. Like the power of positive thinking or self belief or in some greater cause. This lifts people above the limits we would usually put on physical ability to another level. Like how some survive in the wilderness beyond what we would think possible. Its all in the mind.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I believe that psychology is wrongly regarded as a science. I would hope that as a genuine real scientist (which I believe you are) you are not going to argue that a widely held belief is enough to make some notion right. Surely we would not know any accurate thing in physics if that was how it was done?

Neuroscience is science, yes.

From the encyclopedia:

Psychology is the scientific study of mind and behavior.[1][2] Its subject matter includes the behavior of humans and nonhumans, both conscious and unconscious phenomena, and mental processes such as thoughts, feelings, and motives.
 
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Oompa Loompa

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Most times, I think morality is not how we decide to act, but rather how we justify our acts, post hoc.

Edit: spelling
Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I understand, morals is what a person considers to be right and wrong, and ethics is why something is right and wrong.
 
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RamiC

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From the encyclopedia:

Psychology is the scientific study of mind and behavior.[1][2] Its subject matter includes the behavior of humans and nonhumans, both conscious and unconscious phenomena, and mental processes such as thoughts, feelings, and motives.
Did that encyclopedia require the same standard of research and methodology that is required in modern physics to prove the mind exists? Or is it just providing the definition of the word "psychology"?

If I show you this God | Encyclopedia.com does that make God something you are going to believe exists?

Please note, I believe it is a category error...we can say the mind exists because it is what we think with, but that is consciousness, which is not science, it is subjective belief. I am quite happy to say I have a mind, and so do you, because I live the experience of it. However it is either not science or, if we are maintining a position of thinking only science is about anything real...we have the mind is a bunch of neurons moving about.

I think we should accept that the mind exists and we know because it is what we think with, philosophy is of vital importance, we need it, lets go ahead and have it. The human brain being the most complex thing known to biology, and thinking being what we do with the brain, I say yes please philosophy, but then it is not philosophy that has to tackle the hard problem of consciousness, it is atheist philosophy. I am a theist, there is no hard problem explaining consciousness for me, Goddidit, :) .
 
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RamiC

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You can't control anything? But you make decisions, surely. Give us an example of a decision you made and tell us why you made it.
stevevw said "If not then there is no such thing as psychology. ", not just "there is no such thing as psychology". I think it was a conditional point, after somehow defining psychology as just CBT.

I am arguing that psychology is not fit to be deemed science, but I will gladly take it as an art. As far as I know no one in here is trying to say outright that psychology just does not exist.

Please forgive me, you and Stevew if I am messing up meddling in your thing, I just thought you seem to have missed his "psychology is....if not it does not exist."
 
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RamiC

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It is. It just depends on the quality and extent of the personal praxis involved. It also depends upon the work of the Holy Spirit.
I need an interesting smiley. :) You will have to have an ordinary one instead.
 
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partinobodycular

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Making an "evaluation" about anything in the world is at the very core of Philosophy itself, and to define a term or to categorize a thing is to undertake one kind of Philosophy. In fact, much of Philosophy is an analytic extension of human language.

As for the Sciences, they are a more modern form of applied philosophy but typically trade in provisional truth rather than absolute truth. We have to ask ourselves, 'what is science' anyway?

It's not lost on me that in contemplating the value of philosophy, I'm doing philosophy. But it's also not lost on me that the moment that a toddler picks up a knick-knack and sticks it in its mouth, it's doing science. The question, as I as a solipsist see it, is that absent science, of what efficacy is philosophy to finding the truth? Of what value is what 'might be', if it doesn't begin with 'what is'?

Without science one can always do what @RamiC just did, and proclaim that Goddidit. But of what value is that without empirical evidence to support it? Doesn't that make theism of no greater value than solipsism? Simply the byproduct of an imaginative mind.

As a solipsist I've long had to accept the world for what it appears to be, and not for what it might be. But beyond that, it seems to me that the world would be a better place if theists would simply do the same. Accept the world for what it appears to be and not for what myths and legends suggest that it might be. Forget about Gods and demons, and heaven and hell, and simply accept life for what it is. We are what we are, and life will do what life will do. As for what happens after that... that's for Gods to decide.

See, I like philosophy. Mine just happens to be a lot less educated than yours. Still, you've gotta work with what you've got.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Did that encyclopedia require the same standard of research and methodology that is required in modern physics to prove the mind exists? Or is it just providing the definition of the word "psychology"?
Knock it off. You're making me defend psychology. It's a science, just deal with it.
 
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Hans Blaster

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@stevevw said "If not then there is no such thing as psychology. ", not just "there is no such thing as psychology". I think it was a conditional point, after somehow defining psychology as just CBT.

Whether the mind is a "supernatural soul" or "meat musings" is irrelevant to existence of psychology and the study of behavior and perception.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It's not lost on me that in contemplating the value of philosophy, I'm doing philosophy. But it's also not lost on me that the moment that a toddler picks up a knick-knack and sticks it in its mouth, it's doing science. The question, as I as a solipsist see it, is that absent science, of what efficacy is philosophy to finding the truth? Of what value is what 'might be', if it doesn't begin with 'what is'?
Those are good questions, but philosophy by and large is adaptable and amendable to nearly any starting point of inquiry we might have, much like the toddler you've described. With it, and in tandem with our use of the sciences, we can identify and understand something of the nature of our own aesthetic choices which we all make each day. Our individual paths of inquiry can start with one's own preferences---but the trick in philosophy is not to our inquiry simply with looking at and contemplating our own preferences. Philosophy's core is to move us to its prime value of making a cogent "evaluation" of some relevant sort about things in the world, or about ourselves.

And when I say that philosophy is adaptable and amendable, what I really mean is that philosophy is, itself, a 'warehouse' term, an umbrella identifier like "zoo" or "science" for all it holds within it. Philosophy is the Domain in which all the rest of its interior fields and disciplines reside.
Without science one can always do what @RamiC just did, and proclaim that Goddidit. But of what value is that without empirical evidence to support it? Doesn't that make theism of no greater value than solipsism? Simply the byproduct of an imaginative mind.
If we come to the topic of Theism VS. Solipsism, philosophy can help us become aware of better questions and to discern differences in our categories of inquiry; sometimes it'll help us to tease out the ideas in our inquiries that we would really like to clarify. It can also help us realize when some topics or ideas may be too much for us to make prima facie, surface level, analyses (or evaluations).

For instance, in Philosophy we want to know what the uses, differences and limits are of certain forms of reasoning such as Deductive, Inductive, Abductive reasoning and/or logic. And that's just the tip of the ice-berg.
As a solipsist I've long had to accept the world for what it appears to be, and not for what it might be. But beyond that, it seems to me that the world would be a better place if theists would simply do the same. Accept the world for what it appears to be and not for what myths and legends suggest that it might be. Forget about Gods and demons, and heaven and hell, and simply accept life for what it is. We are what we are, and life will do what life will do. As for what happens after that... that's for Gods to decide.
What you're saying here is an evaluation about how you think folks such as theists should approach the world. I hope you see that your position is pregnant with additional inferences that can be questioned further, hopefully by you, yourself. One basic inference is that if theists followed what you're suggesting, they would have to essentially scrub out an entire legion of philosophical modes and discourses. So, in saying what you're saying, you're implying much more than simply "foh-get'a boud'it!" You're implying they should carve out about half their brain matter, and I'm going to go out on a limb and charitably assume that THAT is not what you're intended to imply.

Like I said, I know you have the brain power. If I can do it, You can do it. ;)
See, I like philosophy. Mine just happens to be a lot less educated than yours. Still, you've gotta work with what you've got.

Oh, I haven't really had all that much to work with. What I do have took years to grow from a tiny seedling of utter ignorance and despair.

Here. Before I end this post, I'll just leave you with a short video featuring Greg Ganssle, with a little taste of the sort of things I'm referring to in all of this:

PHILOSOPHY - Epistemology: Argument and Evidence [HD] - Wireless Philosophy

 
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Bradskii

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I am a theist, there is no hard problem explaining consciousness for me, Goddidit,
And I say it's the culmination of a natural process, being evolution (which actually could be the method God used in any case). Both answers tell us how it came to be. But neither explains the hard problem.
 
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partinobodycular

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One basic inference is that if theists followed what you're suggesting, they would have to essentially scrub out an entire legion of philosophical modes and discourses. So, in saying what you're saying, you're implying much more than simply "foh-get'a boud'it!" You're implying they should carve out about half their brain matter, and I'm going to go out on a limb and charitably assume that THAT is not what you're intended to imply.

You're right, that's not what I was implying at all. If so then I should abandon solipsism because it's just as speculative as theism is. But I can't, because I can't abandon reason any more than a theist can abandon faith. Instead what I'm asking is... what if you're wrong?

As a solipsist I could treat everyone with complete contempt, because they're not real... but what if I'm wrong?

In the same manner I'm not suggesting that people should abandon their beliefs either, just that they should augment them with the innately human possibility, that they could be wrong. What is there in those precious beliefs of theirs that wouldn't be better tempered by the humility that comes with admitting that they might be wrong?

Faith is an amazingly uplifting thing... arrogance on the other hand, isn't.

Like I say, I love philosophy. Just not to the point that it forgets that we're only human, we can be wrong. Take that from a solipsist, and a wannabe Christian. (I just don't fit the rules.)
 
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