He's too smart for me..

[rainbowprism]

Ugh, it is impossible to witness or explain things to my father...his beliefs spiritual wise are totally wacky but he is way too smart for me to explain things to him! I'm no idiot but I go in ready for 'battle' and I'm the one coming out scratching my head... This is really frustrating to me becuase all I can tell him is what I've seen and heard and read about which should be enough but he then draws me into these theories about why Christianity is fake or the Bible is wrong and my parrotted arguments are lost!! I'm not really looking for anything specifically, unless you know someone whose involved in a Hindu religion that also loosely follows Gnosticism?! It like this I even took him with me to church and he didn't nessacarily say anything but I could tell by his attitude that he thinks I'm wasting my 'spiritual potential' and it was very discouraging...I prayed through the whole service for God to reveal himself to my father and nothing---he said he'd go back again "before forming an opinion" at least (rolleyes). I dunno--I just need some encouragement, this isn't making me lose my faith but it's sidelining it I feel....grr

 

[allieisme]

Its not impossible to witness to your father.. What you should do is pray intensly about what you are going say to your dad.
Right now in my opinion the devil is trying to keep you from talking to your dad, because once your dad knows the truth, then what has the devil won? Nothing..
I'll be praying for you and your family

 

[charligirl]

In my expereince what you are describing is a tactic of the eenemy to complicate, deceive and generally throw in 'red herrings'. It is not an effective way to witness and generally results in what you have experienced.

You need to keep praying that God would reveal himself, pray for a softening of your fathers heart, for the Holy Spirit to cut through the mind to his soul. Christianity is about relationship with the living God, you will never argue someone into the kingdom, they need a heart revelation - so keep believing for that.

Also ask God to give you the words to say when you father starts one of these conversations, so that you can bow out gracefully and not end up in a deadend discussion.

 

[Lyle]

Gnostic, or Agnostic? They're really two different terms. But here's twouestions two questions that you can ask him that might help you...

What do you believe?
How did you arrive at this?

3/4ths of people don't truely know what they believe, nor why they believe what they believe. They go out on presuppositionalistic limbs.. Which is believing somehting because you want too (In brief).. have him step outside this box. You'll never convince him of anything with a direct attack. And since he is the way he is, you must bring him in to the light of truth by having him ocme there himself...

Never give up hope. The Bible says we'll reap what we sow if we faint not..

 

[12volt_man]

Ugh, it is impossible to witness or explain things to my father...his beliefs spiritual wise are totally wacky but he is way too smart for me to explain things to him! I'm no idiot but I go in ready for 'battle' and I'm the one coming out scratching my head... This is really frustrating to me becuase all I can tell him is what I've seen and heard and read about which should be enough but he then draws me into these theories about why Christianity is fake or the Bible is wrong and my parrotted arguments are lost!! I'm not really looking for anything specifically, unless you know someone whose involved in a Hindu religion that also loosely follows Gnosticism?! It like this I even took him with me to church and he didn't nessacarily say anything but I could tell by his attitude that he thinks I'm wasting my 'spiritual potential' and it was very discouraging...I prayed through the whole service for God to reveal himself to my father and nothing---he said he'd go back again "before forming an opinion" at least (rolleyes). I dunno--I just need some encouragement, this isn't making me lose my faith but it's sidelining it I feel....grr

It can be pretty frustrating, I know, because we feel that it's our job to win someone to Christ or convert them. A lot of times, Christian pop culture gives us this idea that a light bulb is going to go off over their heads and they're just going to fall to their knees and say, "What a fool I've been!"

The truth is, God hasn't called you to convert your dad and He hasn't called you to win arguments.

God has called you to be a witness to what Christ has done in you.

That's not always done with words. You can be a great rhetoritician but not be able to communicate the heart of the Gospel.

I think the problem here is that you're getting hung up on trying to convince your dad and that's not your job, that's the Holy Spirit's job.

If it were me, I would stop debating with him and just live my life in front of him and let him see what fruits develop from having Christ in my life.

 

[desi]

Maybe if you listen more to him you will learn enough about where he's coming from to focus on areas where you can make a differance. In the end you will not change his mind, he will.

 

[rainbowprism]

Thanks all for the posts. I'm not nessacarily try to strong-arm him and change his mind cause I know I can't do that. It's just frustrating dealing with someone so much smarter than yourself...I was having a pity party post basicaly Thanks for the encouragement all.

 

[Lyle]

Hey, hey, hey.. wait a second there. Don't let this get you down. Here's a word for you. Throughout my studies in theology, apologetics, and philosophy.. sometimes you can be used more, often times actually, with the less you know. Sometimes the lack of knowledge in an area will get you farther if you back it with the right questions.
Think of the great detectives, Columbo, matlock, Harry Potter (Ok, none of those are great detectives..) But anyhow, what do they always do? What questions do they ask? God always meets people at their point of need. This doesn't mean have all the anwsers, but have him bring himself into the light of truth..

 

[rainbowprism]

Hey, hey, hey.. wait a second there. Don't let this get you down. Here's a word for you. Throughout my studies in theology, apologetics, and philosophy.. sometimes you can be used more, often times actually, with the less you know. Sometimes the lack of knowledge in an area will get you farther if you back it with the right questions.
Think of the great detectives, Columbo, matlock, Harry Potter (Ok, none of those are great detectives..) But anyhow, what do they always do? What questions do they ask? God always meets people at their point of need. This doesn't mean have all the anwsers, but have him bring himself into the light of truth..

for Lyle. BTW, what is your avatar all about? (I'm hijacking my own thread!)

 

[Lyle]

I actually forgot what it was for a moment there (Go me). I have avvys and signatures turned off since I'm on dial-up.. I gues sit's just a random picture to stick in the corner

 

[Rapha]

Charlie and the rest are right. You may have to wait on the Holy Spirit to soften your father's heart and you can relax and see this in time if you have faith and continue in prayer. The Bible speaks of us as being living letters to the world, as a witness to the truth of Jesus just by the way we live - full of charity, kindness, patience, and good deeds towards other. When they see faith and the economy of God over an extended time they may just wonder at the peace you have as you make your steps in sojourning through life's way. When they ask, be ready to give an answer for the faith that God has given you.
It is God's Holy Spirit that called you to truth, so call on God to speak to your father through the Holy Spirit, too, and let Him do His job - giving the increase. You can plant seeds of truth and water them with encouragement, but only God gives the grace and growth of new life. Trust the Lord and grow in His grace as you do.
God bless.

2 Corinthians 3:2 You are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read by all men;
3 clearly you are an epistle of Christ, ministered by us, written not with ink but by the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of flesh, that is, of the heart.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear;

1Co 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.

 

[Rage4Christ]

rainbowprisim, that fact that you feel he's "too smart" for you should be telling you something. You have more work to do. As you have stated, it is easy to play the "victim" to confrontation-- and I'm impressed that realized this and have owned up to when you called this a "pity post."

There is still more work to be done. This has everything to do about you, nothing about your father. He's responsible for his own choices. You can't fix him, or anyone, other than yourself.

So you must ask yourself, why is this an issue for you, and how can you come to terms with this "conflict" that you see.

There is no easy answer to this. You must do research, understand his position, pray about what sort of transformation you will go through next. The path the Christ is a path of growth and personal challenge. Just because you have Christ in your heart does not mean you stop working, stop growing or stop learning.

 

[rainbowprism]

rainbowprisim, that fact that you feel he's "too smart" for you should be telling you something. You have more work to do. As you have stated, it is easy to play the "victim" to confrontation-- and I'm impressed that realized this and have owned up to when you called this a "pity post."

There is still more work to be done. This has everything to do about you, nothing about your father. He's responsible for his own choices. You can't fix him, or anyone, other than yourself.

So you must ask yourself, why is this an issue for you, and how can you come to terms with this "conflict" that you see.

There is no easy answer to this. You must do research, understand his position, pray about what sort of transformation you will go through next. The path the Christ is a path of growth and personal challenge. Just because you have Christ in your heart does not mean you stop working, stop growing or stop learning.

This is an issue only becuase I can see the holes in his logic but have you ever argued with a ceritfied genius? My dad is and honestly I can't and don't communicate the way he does. I do have something he doesn't have though...and that is the power of the Spirit and that's all I need. I know I'm on the right side and I don't need to make him do anything, I can be my own example.

 

[Lyle]

Yes, I have. I have debated with Istamic scholars and silenced them because I plced my words and questions right. You don't need to beat him.. Just place your questions and never let him get to you. Always count to ten before you respond, to give a more thought out anwser..

 

[rainbowprism]

Yes, I have. I have debated with Istamic scholars and silenced them because I plced my words and questions right. You don't need to beat him.. Just place your questions and never let him get to you. Always count to ten before you respond, to give a more thought out anwser..

I think I finally got to him! I asked him two questions and I told him that I didn't even need to hear an answer at that moment...here's what I asked him:
1. You say that your belief is somehow more advanced and superior than mine. Fine, but where is the "fruit" coming to bear on this?
2. You claim to have such a deep understanding of the nature of God/everything, but why is it that you haven't been able to sustain one single constructive, healthy relationship? (He has blown through bout 3 wives and several girlfriends, he has had 'problems' with numerous family members including myself)

I know typed out this might sound a little harsh...I didn't say these things exactly the way I wrote them down--but that's the general gist of it all. I spoke very gently and I told him that I loved him. And I didn't say any of this to have a "gotcha" moment, but to show him my love and concern for him. He recieved it well and told me that there were good and valid questions.

 

[Lyle]

good. Now don't glory in it too much.. be prepared to hear the rebuttle

 

[Raithlin]

rainbow, you are putting yourself down for no reason at all. I have had the glorious opportunity of being used by the Holy Spirit to ask those questions of an extremely intelligent athiest ex-Christian that knew the Bible well enough to turn it around, and who had caused other Christians to fall away from the Faith. It doesn't matter how "clever" the other person appears to be - God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways. He will always prevail. Pray for your dad - my dad refused to listen to me for 15 years, before being convicted by my mom's boss. 12_volts was right: You weren't called to win arguments - don't fight him... ask questions. Let him do the figuring out.

Pray...

 

[rainbowprism]

rainbow, you are putting yourself down for no reason at all. I have had the glorious opportunity of being used by the Holy Spirit to ask those questions of an extremely intelligent athiest ex-Christian that knew the Bible well enough to turn it around, and who had caused other Christians to fall away from the Faith. It doesn't matter how "clever" the other person appears to be - God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways. He will always prevail. Pray for your dad - my dad refused to listen to me for 15 years, before being convicted by my mom's boss. 12_volts was right: You weren't called to win arguments - don't fight him... ask questions. Let him do the figuring out.

Pray...

 

[Rage4Christ]

rainbow, you said: I know I'm on the right side and I don't need to make him do anything, I can be my own example.

If you know you are on the right side, but you can't articulate or argue it-- do you really know you are the right side? One prof. of mine said: you really don't understand something unless you can write it and argue it on paper. Ideas in the head do not stand the scrutiny of well written and presented arguments.

If you have "faith" in your "faith" you don't have to work anymore. Christ doesn't want this. The path to Christ is a struggle, it is hard, it should be hard. Again, I urge you to do your own interpersonal work, achieve that ability to define your position and defend it.

As for your two questions
1. You say that your belief is somehow more advanced and superior than mine. Fine, but where is the "fruit" coming to bear on this?
2. You claim to have such a deep understanding of the nature of God/everything, but why is it that you haven't been able to sustain one single constructive, healthy relationship? (He has blown through bout 3 wives and several girlfriends, he has had 'problems' with numerous family members including myself)


Question #1 is a logical fallacy of negative consequences. Truth is truth, no matter what the consequences are.

Question #2 is a horrible ad hominem attack. Again, his arguments maybe correct, even if he don't have the emotional or interpresonal skills.

If anything, you should be showing love and compassion, not using his human situation against him.

It appears your externalizing your spiritual path to Christ. You clearly have an inner journey that Christ is calling you to follow, but you find it much easy to play vicitm and attack your father.

Stop, reflect, pray and then go study, and really understand yourself, Christ and the transformation that is the path of Christ.

 

[rainbowprism]

rainbow, you said: I know I'm on the right side and I don't need to make him do anything, I can be my own example.

If you know you are on the right side, but you can't articulate or argue it-- do you really know you are the right side? One prof. of mine said: you really don't understand something unless you can write it and argue it on paper. Ideas in the head do not stand the scrutiny of well written and presented arguments.

If you have "faith" in your "faith" you don't have to work anymore. Christ doesn't want this. The path to Christ is a struggle, it is hard, it should be hard. Again, I urge you to do your own interpersonal work, achieve that ability to define your position and defend it.

As for your two questions
1. You say that your belief is somehow more advanced and superior than mine. Fine, but where is the "fruit" coming to bear on this?
2. You claim to have such a deep understanding of the nature of God/everything, but why is it that you haven't been able to sustain one single constructive, healthy relationship? (He has blown through bout 3 wives and several girlfriends, he has had 'problems' with numerous family members including myself)


Question #1 is a logical fallacy of negative consequences. Truth is truth, no matter what the consequences are.

Question #2 is a horrible ad hominem attack. Again, his arguments maybe correct, even if he don't have the emotional or interpresonal skills.

If anything, you should be showing love and compassion, not using his human situation against him.

It appears your externalizing your spiritual path to Christ. You clearly have an inner journey that Christ is calling you to follow, but you find it much easy to play vicitm and attack your father.

Stop, reflect, pray and then go study, and really understand yourself, Christ and the transformation that is the path of Christ.

How can you criticize my internal walk with Jesus!? That is extremely insulting, I speak of one single minute incident that is bothering me and you completley rip apart my spirituality.
Secondly, my first question does make sense. You would think that someone so spiritual would not have a dumptruck full of dissonance or sin in his life. The Gospel speaks of fruit showing evidence of maturing and spiritual growth. Other belief systems also prognosticate compassion and peace. Would you go to a church where a pastor is aware of his problems but is completley unwilling to seek help/take it to the cross? I doubt it. (Note: I am not saying a pastor would have to be perfect but if he was in denial and unrepentance of his own life issues that would cause dissension)
Thirdly, did I ever say that I was unable to sit down and write an essay explaining my faith and present reasons why his ideas were innacurate? NO. I was saying I was having problems in SPEAKING to him about things because he will manipulate things. He would tell me the sky is fuschia if I said it was blue!

I know I am on the right side because I am in fellowship with Jesus! And people can argue all they want on this point but God did not set up multiple religions with the same endpoint. He made one, that's it...one. This is the Truth. And I realize I don't need to make anyone do anything, and obviously I can't. If my Dad is going to come to Christ it will be Christ's doing--not mine!
So don't rip me apart for expressing frustration on the fact that it is difficult to communicate with my father. This isn't some random person off the street, I think you would be able to understand how I don't want something between me and my father. And to say that I am attacking him is extremely rude of you to even insinuate.....I am trying to rebuild the bridge that he burned years ago---he abandoned me and the rest of the extended family. So don't speak of a situation you know nothing about other than the fact that I said I am frustrated that I don't feel like I can communicate with my own flesh and blood about ANYTHING, including what is most dear to me which is my faith.