Here's the pattern....

[holdon]

Far be it for me to tell you what you should see in Scripture. You are entitled to find your own meaning of the words "Teach them all I commanded you."

Oh, and who is "you" there? I see only the 11 disciples there.

 

[ScottBot]

Oh, and who is "you" there? I see only the 11 disciples there.

Okay... your point being?

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Oh, and who is "you" there? I see only the 11 disciples there.

Yes and they held a position in the church like that of a bishop. They also placed others up as bishops and inlaying on of hands the Holy Spirit was sent to help them as leaders and this is also important to see Apostolic succession for where the church and bishop are there is Jesus.

 

[holdon]

Okay... your point being?

Well answer the question! How does 11 = the Church?

 

[holdon]

Yes and they held a position in the church like that of a bishop. They also placed others up as bishops and inlaying on of hands the Holy Spirit was sent to help them as leaders and this is also important to see Apostolic succession for where the church and bishop are there is Jesus.

Well, read Acts. The apostles stayed in Jerusalem (failure) and all the others spread out and preached everywhere.

And Jesus is there where: two or three are gathered in My name.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Well, read Acts. The apostles stayed in Jerusalem (failure) and all the others spread out and preached everywhere.

And Jesus is there where: two or three are gathered in My name.

If those were the only words about the church then your argument might hold water. Unfortunately for your theology it is not possible since so much of scripture points to a physical church and a place for the Eucharist.

It is only when you have a complete scriptural understanding that you will see this is so.

 

[E.C.]

Well, read Acts. The apostles stayed in Jerusalem (failure) and all the others spread out and preached everywhere.

Define "failure" in this context.

 

[Melethiel]

Well, read Acts. The apostles stayed in Jerusalem (failure) and all the others spread out and preached everywhere.

And Jesus is there where: two or three are gathered in My name.

They didn't stay in Jerusalem indefinitely...Acts isn't comprehensive, you know.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Uh oh Holdon... the Lutherans and EOCs are here.

 

[holdon]

If those were the only words about the church then your argument might hold water. Unfortunately for your theology it is not possible since so much of scripture points to a physical church and a place for the Eucharist.

It is only when you have a complete scriptural understanding that you will see this is so.

Yes, what's not physical about it?

 

[ScottBot]

Well answer the question! How does 11 = the Church?

Tell me why Jesus spent such and inordinate amount of time with the apostles and monsterous masses of people all the time? He obviously was preparing them to be teachers and leaders in His Church.

 

[holdon]

Define "failure" in this context.

They were to go out in the whole world. They were only to stay in Jerusalem till they would receive the power of the Holy Spirit.
They stayed in Jerusalem.
Later, they went out, except those killed, but mostly not of their own will, but bound in chains etc...

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Yes, what's not physical about it?

Two or three people meeting in his name do not necessarily constitute a church.

Non Catholic source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church

Etymologic origins

The English language word "church" developed from Old English cirice, from West Germanic kirika, from Greek kyriake (oikia) "Lord's (house)", from kyrios "ruler, lord." [1] The Greek word kyriakon (an adjective meaning "of the Lord") was used of houses of Christian worship since c.300, especially in the East, though it was less common in this sense than ekklesia or basilike.[2]

Theologic origins

The Christian concept of a "Church" is used for the Greek (ecclesia,church,ekklesia), ref. [Strong's Concordance] 1577, Bauer's, Thayer's, and Moulton's and is introduced by Jesus of Nazareth in the New Testament. Of the 114 occurrences of the term in the New Testament, three are found in the Gospel of Matthew: "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my ekklesia, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it" (Mt 16:18); and "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the ekklesia; and if he refuses to listen even to the ekklesia, let him be to you as the Gentile and the tax-collector" (Mt 18:17).
The Greek term 'ekklesia, which literally means a "gathering" or "selection" or "called out assembly", was a governmental and political term, used to denote a national assembly.
This concept in Christian terms has its direct antecedent in the Koine Greek translation of the Old Testament (see also Septuagint), where the noun ekklesia has been employed 96 times to denote the congregation of the Children of Israel, which Christians regard as a Type of the "Body of Christ", as they also call the Christian Church of Jesus Christ.
"Church" is a derivative of the Early Greek word "κυριακον", meaning Lord's house, which in the english language became "church". THE LORD'S HOUSE MEANS HOUSE OF GOD.The Koine word for church is εκκλησία (ecclesia). Before Christian appropriation of the term, it was used to describe purposeful gatherings, including the assemblies of many Greek city states.

 

[sunlover1]

Not a single one of those addresses the immaculate conception or assumption of Mary.

You do understand that context of the question, right?

A catholic friend told me that the assumption was voted on about 50 or so years ago.

Of course you don't. Not because it isn't there, its because you choose not to see it.

I saw it.

Oh, I see. I should see something that isn't there. Right?

I saw it.

 

[holdon]

Tell me why Jesus spent such and inordinate amount of time with the apostles and monsterous masses of people all the time? He obviously was preparing them to be teachers and leaders in His Church.

Oh, yes I agree. But then it is teachers teaching the Church. NOT the Church teaching....

 

[JacktheCatholic]

They were to go out in the whole world. They were only to stay in Jerusalem till they would receive the power of the Holy Spirit.
They stayed in Jerusalem.
Later, they went out, except those killed, but mostly not of their own will, but bound in chains etc...

Cool


Peter went to Antioch and set up a church there and appointed a Bishop when he left. The third Bishop he appointed there was Ignatius who was martyred later and was known for saying:

Ignatius of Antioch


"I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible" (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

"Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes" (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

 

[sunlover1]

Tithe was the legal work..Now we have the freedom to give offering of our choice, cheerfully.. We aren't restricted to just 10% of our time. talents and finances..

I agree, God loveth a cheerful giver.
Did you know that tithe actually preceded the law?

 

[E.C.]

They were to go out in the whole world. They were only to stay in Jerusalem till they would receive the power of the Holy Spirit.
They stayed in Jerusalem.
Later, they went out, except those killed, but mostly not of their own will, but bound in chains etc...

Did any stay in Jerusalem? Did any Christian presence remain in Jerusalem from 2,000 years ago?

The way to put this makes it sound like you don't think so.

 

[JacktheCatholic]

Oh, yes I agree. But then it is teachers teaching the Church. NOT the Church teaching....

Irenaeus who was taught by Polycarp who was taught by the Apsotle John wrote:



Irenaeus


"As I said before, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although she is disseminated throughout the whole world, yet guarded it, as if she occupied but one house. She likewise believes these things just as if she had but one soul and one and the same heart; and harmoniously she proclaims them and teaches them and hands them down, as if she possessed but one mouth. For, while the languages of the world are diverse, nevertheless, the authority of the tradition is one and the same" (Against Heresies 1:10:2 [A.D. 189]).

"That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?" (ibid., 3:4:1).

...

"It is possible, then, for everyone in every church, who may wish to know the truth, to contemplate the tradition of the apostles which has been made known throughout the whole world. And we are in a position to enumerate those who were instituted bishops by the apostles and their successors to our own times—men who neither knew nor taught anything like these heretics rave about.

"But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the successions of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles.

"With this church, because of its superior origin, all churches must agree—that is, all the faithful in the whole world—and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition" (ibid., 3:3:1–2).

 

[holdon]

Two or three people meeting in his name do not necessarily constitute a church.

Non Catholic source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church

Etymologic origins

The English language word "church" developed from Old English cirice, from West Germanic kirika, from Greek kyriake (oikia) "Lord's (house)", from kyrios "ruler, lord." [1] The Greek word kyriakon (an adjective meaning "of the Lord") was used of houses of Christian worship since c.300, especially in the East, though it was less common in this sense than ekklesia or basilike.[2]

Theologic origins

The Christian concept of a "Church" is used for the Greek (ecclesia,church,ekklesia), ref. [Strong's Concordance] 1577, Bauer's, Thayer's, and Moulton's and is introduced by Jesus of Nazareth in the New Testament. Of the 114 occurrences of the term in the New Testament, three are found in the Gospel of Matthew: "And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my ekklesia, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it" (Mt 16:18); and "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the ekklesia; and if he refuses to listen even to the ekklesia, let him be to you as the Gentile and the tax-collector" (Mt 18:17).
The Greek term 'ekklesia, which literally means a "gathering" or "selection" or "called out assembly", was a governmental and political term, used to denote a national assembly.
This concept in Christian terms has its direct antecedent in the Koine Greek translation of the Old Testament (see also Septuagint), where the noun ekklesia has been employed 96 times to denote the congregation of the Children of Israel, which Christians regard as a Type of the "Body of Christ", as they also call the Christian Church of Jesus Christ.
"Church" is a derivative of the Early Greek word "κυριακον", meaning Lord's house, which in the english language became "church". THE LORD'S HOUSE MEANS HOUSE OF GOD.The Koine word for church is εκκλησία (ecclesia). Before Christian appropriation of the term, it was used to describe purposeful gatherings, including the assemblies of many Greek city states.

Ekklesia = assembly. So, 2 or 3 are the smallest possible assembly.
It is an assembly in the name of Christ, then He promised He would be there.

I agree it's not just anywhere where 2 or 3 christians meet. It needs to be an assembly "in His name". Nor is it confined to any building or organization: no word of that.