Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT...

[BobRyan]

redleghunter said: ↑
So you read where St Paul mentions that no human has an excuse as we can see the Divine attributes of God in His creation?

Yes. I am going to directly state that this is wrong. Even if humans inherently saw divinity in nature, there would be no way of knowing WHICH deity did the work.

All mankind is held accountable before God and will go to hell if they do not respond to the Holy Spirit. That is stated in Romans 3:19-21 and in Galatians 3:22-24.

But that does not mean that they are lost simply because they don't have "enough of the story".

In John 16 God "convicts the WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment (not just Christians).

In Romans 2 - those with no Bible at all are doing 'instinctively the things of the Law SHOWING the work of the LAW of God written on the heart" - and judged as being saints - according to Romans 2.

So it is not the "completeness of the details in the story" that they have - that is saving them.

Yes, I know the scripture. My point is that such punishment is unjustified for those that never had the opportunity to be exposed to the religion.

On the contrary -

1. ALL have access to the Holy Spirit - who "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 -- not "just Christians".
2. And the punishment is proportional to the knowledge that the person has "Access" to -
Luke 12
47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

James 4:17
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, no person is going to become a Christian without being exposed to the religion in some way.

ALL the world is "exposed in some way" -- to God -- whether they become a Christian nor not depends on how much of the "story" they have access to".

Let's take a simple example. (Next post)
Monday at 10:27 PM #1376

How fair is it, for a 10 year old that lives in some isolated region to be damned to hell because they didn't worship the correct deity if they were never exposed to the possibility of that deity?

Not fair - but notice what scripture says about it.

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

those "without the Law" are those without any access to scripture at all. Yet even they will have some among them who " do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts"

James 4:17
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

And if god doesn't condemn people in such situations, how can you justify spreading the ideas knowing that you would be willfully damning more people than you would be saving

The "damning" action is "rejecting the light of truth" - rejecting the light - rejecting the Holy Spirit is the "damning action" no matter how little or how much that light is. If you are going to be damned for doing it - would you want to know less about what that thing is -- or more so you can carefully avoid it.

John 1
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

You say you "know that text" - then if you know the Bible - you must surely know about John 3:16.

John 3
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

 

[BobRyan]

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, no person is going to become a Christian without being exposed to the religion in some way.

ALL the world is "exposed in some way" -- to God -- whether they become a Christian nor not depends on how much of the "story" they have access to".

Let's take a simple example. Watch this testimony about an Islamic Terrorist - who becomes Christian at the risk of his life.

Notice what he says in response to the first unusual event "That was not my conversion - that was the beginning of my confusions. Why would Jesus help a Muslim?"

It is not how much light you have -- it is what you do with the light that you do have - or that you have access to.

 

[Neogaia777]

Please don't ignore the 10 commandments. Thou shalt not worship false idols. Also, don't forget that in Jesus's own words, his coming didn't make the rules of the OT go away. If the NT disagrees, it's a contradiction.

The laws fulfillment is "Love" pure Love, Agape Love...found in Jesus...

 

[PsychoSarah]

The laws fulfillment is "Love" pure Love, Agape Love...found in Jesus...

So, you don't consider stealing or murder to violate that love? Which is it, do the rules matter, or not?

 

[PsychoSarah]

On the contrary -

1. ALL have access to the Holy Spirit - who "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 -- not "just Christians".
2. And the punishment is proportional to the knowledge that the person has "Access" to -
Luke 12
47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Then the best way to ensure salvation is to leave people ignorant of the teachings of Christianity. That way, all are saved.

James 4:17

17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Plenty of people who "sin" don't give their approval when others do the same; some people are hypocrites. Additionally, for god to give anyone over to something is a violation of free will. Even more damning is the fact that atheists are not statistically more likely to behave immorally than religious people are, so they aren't "given over to wickedness" any more than a Christian.

ALL the world is "exposed in some way" -- to God -- whether they become a Christian nor not depends on how much of the "story" they have access to".

Let's take a simple example. (Next post)





Not fair - but notice what scripture says about it.

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

those "without the Law" are those without any access to scripture at all. Yet even they will have some among them who " do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts"

James 4:17
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.




The "damning" action is "rejecting the light of truth" - rejecting the light - rejecting the Holy Spirit is the "damning action" no matter how little or how much that light is. If you are going to be damned for doing it - would you want to know less about what that thing is -- or more so you can carefully avoid it.

Clearly, I would want to know less, because that would excuse me from believing in the stuff to begin with (or, that would have to be the case in order for any resemblance of justice to be retained in this system). I am not personally inclined to kill or harm others, so I wouldn't need the bible to avoid doing these things.

Also, the fact of the matter is, not everyone that has ever lived has been exposed to even the concept of a single deity being responsible for practically everything. If that were the case, then the first religions should have been monotheistic, but they weren't.

John 1

9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

You say you "know that text" - then if you know the Bible - you must surely know about John 3:16.

John 3
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

There are plenty of "evil" people that were also Christians. So, no, not every evil person hates god.

Also, why present a bible quote you assume I am aware of?

 

[Loudmouth]

One thing is for certain - blind faith evolutionism . . .

The projection is strong with this one.

Don't you realize that every time you use "faith" as a term of derision, you only make yourself look bad?

Also, it makes you look really, really bad when you ignore the massive amount of evidence supporting the theory of evolution:

29+ Evidences for Macroevolution

You are in effect trying to argue that evolution is as terrible as your religious beliefs, and doing so in the face of contradictory evident.

 

[BobRyan]

Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT... were the OT writers simply writing what they "thought" and the way they "felt" about God, and not in an actual words God actually said..

Well, my problem is I believe the scientific evidence which casts doubt on some of the Bible writers, BUT, I have too much personal experiencial evidence of a God and other spirits existing on another side beside this one...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...periencing-part-of-a-pm-conversation.7843548/

My personal experiencial evidence stands on it's very own as enough proof for me, but have I encountered the same God (YHWH) spoke about in the OT, some OT acts and verses by God cast a shadow of a doubt on him being a or the God of Love...

Anyone help?

God Bless!

Darwin claimed that is faith in blind faith evolutionism eventually drove out every last vestige of his acceptance of the Word of God. Dawkins, Provine, P.Z. Meyers all claimed the same thing.

One thing is for certain - blind faith evolutionism is totally at odds with faith in the Bible as the Word of God.

There can be no logical and truthful marriage between the two religions regarding the doctrine on origins - as Darwin himself observed.

The projection is strong with this one.

your efforts to "re-imagine history" for us -- noted.

But those 3 are on video tape explaining just how their blind faith in evolutionism destroyed their faith in the Word of God - so also did Darwin document his own rejection of the Bible in favor of his faith in evolutionism.

Don't you realize that every time you use "faith" as a term of derision, you only make yourself look bad?

On the contrary - I have "faith in Christ" - the evidence of things not seen.

I don't have "faith that 2+2=4" -- that is science fact. You will never find atheists or Christians asking someone if they "believe in 2+2=4-ism" but they ask that about evolution all the time.

Blind faith evolutionism is a competing religion - and junk-science all at the same time.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

redleghunter said: ↑
So you read where St Paul mentions that no human has an excuse as we can see the Divine attributes of God in His creation?

Yes. I am going to directly state that this is wrong. Even if humans inherently saw divinity in nature, there would be no way of knowing WHICH deity did the work.

All mankind is held accountable before God and will go to hell if they do not respond to the Holy Spirit. That is stated in Romans 3:19-21 and in Galatians 3:22-24.

But that does not mean that they are lost simply because they don't have "enough of the story".

In John 16 God "convicts the WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment (not just Christians).

In Romans 2 - those with no Bible at all are doing 'instinctively the things of the Law SHOWING the work of the LAW of God written on the heart" - and judged as being saints - according to Romans 2.

So it is not the "completeness of the details in the story" that they have - that is saving them.

Yes, I know the scripture. My point is that such punishment is unjustified for those that never had the opportunity to be exposed to the religion.

On the contrary -

1. ALL have access to the Holy Spirit - who "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 -- not "just Christians".
2. And the punishment is proportional to the knowledge that the person has "Access" to -
Luke 12
47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

James 4:17
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, no person is going to become a Christian without being exposed to the religion in some way.

ALL the world is "exposed in some way" -- to God -- whether they become a Christian nor not depends on how much of the "story" they have access to".

Let's take a simple example. (Next post)

How fair is it, for a 10 year old that lives in some isolated region to be damned to hell because they didn't worship the correct deity if they were never exposed to the possibility of that deity?

Not fair - but notice what scripture says about it.

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

those "without the Law" are those without any access to scripture at all. Yet even they will have some among them who " do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts"

James 4:17
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

And if god doesn't condemn people in such situations, how can you justify spreading the ideas knowing that you would be willfully damning more people than you would be saving

The "damning" action is "rejecting the light of truth" - rejecting the light - rejecting the Holy Spirit is the "damning action" no matter how little or how much that light is. If you are going to be damned for doing it - would you want to know less about what that thing is -- or more so you can carefully avoid it.

John 1
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

You say you "know that text" - then if you know the Bible - you must surely know about John 3:16.

John 3
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Then the best way to ensure salvation is to leave people ignorant of the teachings of Christianity. That way, all are saved.

I find your logic "illusive" just then - given that the "love of the truth" and going "toward the light" is the signature difference between the saved and the lost.

Plenty of people who "sin" don't give their approval when others do the same; some people are hypocrites. Additionally, for god to give anyone over to something is a violation of free will. Even more damning is the fact that atheists are not statistically more likely to behave immorally than religious people are

Too late to "re-imagine" that history for us. We already have the stellar examples of the Soviet Union and Communist China, and Cuba -- all of them proudly demonstrating the "human rights" advocacy found in atheism. Meanwhile the "free world" kept begging them to treat their own citizens "better".

I would have avoided that one with a 10 foot pole if I were an atheist.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Loudmouth]

your efforts to "re-imagine history" for us -- noted.

There is no imagination involved.

But those 3 are on video tape explaining just how their blind faith in evolutionism destroyed their faith in the Word of God - so also did Darwin document his own rejection of the Bible in favor of his faith in evolutionism.

And once again you use "faith" as a dirty word. Why is that?

Also, we have the evidence, so there is no need for faith.

On the contrary - I have "faith in Christ" - the evidence of things not seen.

Aren't you saying that evolution is false because it requires faith?

 

[Hoghead1]

It's true, Bob, that belief in Hell has been a major teaching in Christianity. But is it really true? The Bible also says that God is loving and forgiving; and when you are truly loving you do not seek to coerce others with threats of eternal punishments. Many have left the church, some to become atheists, because they were given a contradictory message: God is supposed to be loving and forgiving, yet may well send the vast majority of the human race to eternal torment.

 

[Hoghead1]

What is your evidence for your above comment abut Darwin, Bob? I ask because it does not seem to fit well the facts of teh matter.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes. I am going to directly state that this is wrong. Even if humans inherently saw divinity in nature, there would be no way of knowing WHICH deity did the work.

Romans 1 is not a 'which deity' discussion - it is a discussion about being condemned for acting wickedly.

 

[BobRyan]

What is your evidence for your above comment abut Darwin, Bob? I ask because it does not seem to fit well the facts of teh matter.

I assume you intended to quote something from me - since your post is somewhat distanced from anything I posted.

 

[BobRyan]

It's true, Bob, that belief in Hell has been a major teaching in Christianity. But is it really true? The Bible also says that God is loving and forgiving;

The Bible says God is BOTH just AND merciful. Not one OR the other. See "Just AND the Justifier of those that seek Him" Romans 3.

Ex 20
5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Ex 34
6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations.”

Luke 12
49"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

Rev 14
9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

and when you are truly loving you do not seek to coerce others with threats of eternal punishments.

Is this where you 'quote you' as your own divine authority and what will be the fate of the wicked?

Many have left the church, some to become atheists, because they were given a contradictory message: God is supposed to be loving and forgiving, yet may well send the vast majority of the human race to eternal torment.

Matt 7 the wide road goes to hell.

Genesis 7 all the planet drowned - except for 8 people.

But when God destroys the wicked - it is not with "infinite torment" -- rather it is with punishment that fits the crime.

Luke 12
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful and sensible steward, whom his master will put in charge of his servants, to give them their rations at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes. 44 Truly I say to you that he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will be a long time in coming,’ and begins to beat the slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more. 49 “I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled!

 

[BobRyan]

As the time of their probation was closing, the antediluvians gave themselves up to exciting amusements and festivities. Those who possessed influence and power were bent on keeping the minds of the people engrossed with mirth and pleasure, lest any should be impressed by the last solemn warning. Do we not see the same repeated in our day? While God’s servants are giving the message that the end of all things is at hand, the world is absorbed in amusements and pleasure seeking. There is a constant round of excitement that causes indifference to God and prevents the people from being impressed by the truths which alone can save them from the coming destruction. {PP 103.1}

In Noah’s day philosophers declared that it was impossible for the world to be destroyed by water; so now there are men of science who endeavor to show that the world cannot be destroyed by fire—that this would be inconsistent with the laws of nature. But the God of nature, the Maker and Controller of her laws, can use the works of His hands to serve His own purpose. {PP 103.2}

When great and wise men had proved to their satisfaction that it was impossible for the world to be destroyed by water, when the fears of the people were quieted, when all regarded Noah’s prophecy as a delusion, and looked upon him as a fanatic—then it was that God’s time had come. “The fountains of the great deep” were “broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened,” and the scoffers were overwhelmed in the waters of the Flood. With all their boasted philosophy, men found too late that their wisdom was foolishness, that the Lawgiver is greater than the laws of nature, and that Omnipotence is at no loss for means to accomplish His purposes. “As it was in the days of Noah,” “even thus shall it be in the days when the Son of man is revealed.” Luke 17:26, 30. “The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” 2 Peter 3:10. When the reasoning of philosophy has banished the fear of God’s judgments; when religious teachers are pointing forward to long ages of peace and prosperity, and the world are absorbed in their rounds of business and pleasure, planting and building, feasting and merrymaking, rejecting God’s warnings and mocking His messengers—then it is that sudden destruction cometh upon them, and they shall not escape. 1 Thessalonians 5:3. {PP 103.3}

 

[BobRyan]

Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT... were the OT writers simply writing what they "thought" and the way they "felt" about God, and not in an actual words God actually said..

Well, my problem is I believe the scientific evidence which casts doubt on some of the Bible writers, BUT, I have too much personal experiencial evidence of a God and other spirits existing on another side beside this one...

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...periencing-part-of-a-pm-conversation.7843548/

My personal experiencial evidence stands on it's very own as enough proof for me, but have I encountered the same God (YHWH) spoke about in the OT, some OT acts and verses by God cast a shadow of a doubt on him being a or the God of Love...

Anyone help?

God Bless!

Darwin claimed that is faith in blind faith evolutionism eventually drove out every last vestige of his acceptance of the Word of God. Dawkins, Provine, P.Z. Meyers all claimed the same thing.

One thing is for certain - blind faith evolutionism is totally at odds with faith in the Bible as the Word of God.

There can be no logical and truthful marriage between the two religions regarding the doctrine on origins - as Darwin himself observed.

The projection is strong with this one.

your efforts to "re-imagine history" for us -- noted.

But those 3 are on video tape explaining just how their blind faith in evolutionism destroyed their faith in the Word of God - so also did Darwin document his own rejection of the Bible in favor of his faith in evolutionism.

Don't you realize that every time you use "faith" as a term of derision, you only make yourself look bad?

On the contrary - I have "faith in Christ" - the evidence of things not seen.

I don't have "faith that 2+2=4" -- that is science fact. You will never find atheists or Christians asking someone if they "believe in 2+2=4-ism" but they ask that about evolution all the time.

Blind faith evolutionism is a competing religion - and junk-science all at the same time.

There is no imagination involved.

More of Othaniel Marsh-ism? "arranging" the fossils along with "stories easy enough to tell - but they are not science"??

=================================

On April 10, 1979, Patterson replied to the author (Sunderland) in a most candid letter as follows:

April 10, 1979 Letter from Colin Patterson to Sunderland

“ I fully agree with your comments on the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would certainly have included them.

You suggest that an artist should be used to visualise such transformations, but where would he get the information from? I could not, honestly, provide it, and if I were to leave it to artistic license, would that not mislead the reader?
...
You say thatI should at least show a photo of the fossil from which each type of organism was derived. I will lay it on the line- there is not one such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument.[The reason is that statements about ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no there is no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science, for there is no way of putting them to the test. So, much as I should like to oblige you by jumping to the defence of gradualism, and fleshing out the transitions between the major types of animals and plants, I find myself a bit short of the intellectual justification necessary for the job “
[Ref: Patterson, personal communication. Documented in Darwin’s Enigma, Luther Sunderland, Master Books, El Cajon, CA, 1988, pp. 88-90.]

 

[BobRyan]

redleghunter said: ↑
So you read where St Paul mentions that no human has an excuse as we can see the Divine attributes of God in His creation?

Yes. I am going to directly state that this is wrong. Even if humans inherently saw divinity in nature, there would be no way of knowing WHICH deity did the work.

All mankind is held accountable before God and will go to hell if they do not respond to the Holy Spirit. That is stated in Romans 3:19-21 and in Galatians 3:22-24.

But that does not mean that they are lost simply because they don't have "enough of the story".

In John 16 God "convicts the WORLD" of sin and righteousness and judgment (not just Christians).

In Romans 2 - those with no Bible at all are doing 'instinctively the things of the Law SHOWING the work of the LAW of God written on the heart" - and judged as being saints - according to Romans 2.

So it is not the "completeness of the details in the story" that they have - that is saving them.

Yes, I know the scripture. My point is that such punishment is unjustified for those that never had the opportunity to be exposed to the religion.

On the contrary -

1. ALL have access to the Holy Spirit - who "Convicts the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16 -- not "just Christians".
2. And the punishment is proportional to the knowledge that the person has "Access" to -
Luke 12
47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

James 4:17
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.

28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Whether you want to acknowledge it or not, no person is going to become a Christian without being exposed to the religion in some way.

ALL the world is "exposed in some way" -- to God -- whether they become a Christian nor not depends on how much of the "story" they have access to".

Let's take a simple example. (Next post)

How fair is it, for a 10 year old that lives in some isolated region to be damned to hell because they didn't worship the correct deity if they were never exposed to the possibility of that deity?

Not fair - but notice what scripture says about it.

Romans 2
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

those "without the Law" are those without any access to scripture at all. Yet even they will have some among them who " do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts"

James 4:17
17 Therefore, to one who knows the right thing to do and does not do it, to him it is sin.

And if god doesn't condemn people in such situations, how can you justify spreading the ideas knowing that you would be willfully damning more people than you would be saving

The "damning" action is "rejecting the light of truth" - rejecting the light - rejecting the Holy Spirit is the "damning action" no matter how little or how much that light is. If you are going to be damned for doing it - would you want to know less about what that thing is -- or more so you can carefully avoid it.

John 1
9 There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. 11 He came to His own, and those who were His own did not receive Him. 12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name,

You say you "know that text" - then if you know the Bible - you must surely know about John 3:16.

John 3
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

Then the best way to ensure salvation is to leave people ignorant of the teachings of Christianity. That way, all are saved.

On the contrary - even in darkness if their mindset is that they "love darkness rather than light" they are lost.

John 3 -
19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”

In John 14 Christ is "The Way the TRUTH and the life" and hating truth - is to hate Christ.

Even more damning is the fact that atheists are not statistically more likely to behave immorally than religious people are, so they aren't "given over to wickedness" any more than a Christian.

Paul was beheaded.
All the Apostles were murdered except for one who experienced attempted Murder.

By contrast - Atheist USSR - a horrible list of crimes against humanity.
Atheist China - a horrible list of crimes against humanity.
Atheist Cuba - a horrible list of crimes against humanity.

Not simply "in the dark ages" - but in the light of the 20th century.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Clearly, I would want to know less, because that would excuse me from believing in the stuff to begin with (or, that would have to be the case in order for any resemblance of justice to be retained in this system). I am not personally inclined to kill or harm others, so I wouldn't need the bible to avoid doing these things.

God is not easily fooled -

Mankind is held accountable for the light that it has - AND for "choosing darkness rather than light" -- turning from the light that it "could have" .

Notice the post you have not commented on??

Yesterday at 10:27 PM #1376

Don't turn from the light - as if God will not be aware of the game being played.

 

[PsychoSarah]

God is not easily fooled -

Mankind is held accountable for the light that it has - AND for "choosing darkness rather than light" -- turning from the light that it "could have" .

Notice the post you have not commented on??

Yesterday at 10:27 PM #1376

Don't turn from the light - as if God will not be aware of the game being played.

Then obviously, the best thing that could happen to me would be growing up in a society where Christianity was not present. Thus, I would end up in heaven regardless as to what I believed, because I would not knowingly be refusing to look into it, nor would I have any passive exposure to the concepts.

 

[PsychoSarah]

ALL the world is "exposed in some way" -- to God -- whether they become a Christian nor not depends on how much of the "story" they have access to".

Let's take a simple example. Watch this testimony about an Islamic Terrorist - who becomes Christian at the risk of his life.

Notice what he says in response to the first unusual event "That was not my conversion - that was the beginning of my confusions. Why would Jesus help a Muslim?"

It is not how much light you have -- it is what you do with the light that you do have - or that you have access to.

-_- Muslims read the same books that Christians do, in addition to others. He had exposure to the faith, which violates the point I was making. Also, the better question is "Why doesn't Jesus help everyone effectively", which I am sure you are going to answer with free will, but feel free to shock me with a different answer.