Here's my problem, I believe in evolution, and it brings up doubts especially in the OT...

[redleghunter]

The world isn't obviously created by any particular deity; if that was the case, Judaism and perhaps Christianity would have been among Native North and South Americans prior to Europeans going there.

The above has to be the most bizarre statement I've seen on CF to date.

 

[redleghunter]

Question: if God, in all his brilliance and glory, were to appear to you right now -- no intermediaries, no filters -- and you were somehow trying to express what you saw to us here on this board, do you think that you could accomplish that using human language and do justice to the experience?

It's been done quite well in the past:

Acts 26: (WEB) (Paul recounts his conversion to King Agrippa)

12 “Whereupon as I traveled to Damascus with the authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at noon, O king, I saw on the way a light from the sky, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who traveled with me. 14 When we had all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15 “I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But arise, and stand on your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose: to appoint you a servant and a witness both of the things which you have seen, and of the things which I will reveal to you; 17 delivering you from the people, and from the Gentiles, to whom I send you, 18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to them of Damascus, at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance. 21 For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. 22 Having therefore obtained the help that is from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would happen, 23 how the Christ must suffer, and how, by the resurrection of the dead, he would be first to proclaim light both to these people and to the Gentiles.”(WEB)

The below in the Greek if that is what you prefer:

12 Ἐν οἷς πορευόμενος εἰς τὴν Δαμασκὸν μετ’ ἐξουσίας καὶ ἐπιτροπῆς τῆς τῶν ἀρχιερέων 13 ἡμέρας μέσης κατὰ τὴν ὁδὸν εἶδον, βασιλεῦ, οὐρανόθεν ὑπὲρ τὴν λαμπρότητα τοῦ ἡλίου περιλάμψαν με φῶς καὶ τοὺς σὺν ἐμοὶ πορευομένους· 14 πάντων τε καταπεσόντων ἡμῶν εἰς τὴν γῆν ἤκουσα φωνὴν λέγουσαν πρός με τῇ Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ, Σαοὺλ Σαούλ, τί με διώκεις; σκληρόν σοι πρὸς κέντρα λακτίζειν. 15 ἐγὼ δὲ εἶπα, τίς εἶ, κύριε; ὁ δὲ κύριος εἶπεν, ἐγώ εἰμι Ἰησοῦς ὃν σὺ διώκεις. 16 ἀλλὰ ἀνάστηθι καὶ στῆθι ἐπὶ τοὺς πόδας σου· εἰς τοῦτο γὰρ ὤφθην σοι, προχειρίσασθαί σε ὑπηρέτην καὶ μάρτυρα ὧν τε εἶδές ὧν τε ὀφθήσομαί σοι, 17 ἐξαιρούμενός σε ἐκ τοῦ λαοῦ καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἐθνῶν, εἰς οὓς ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω σε 18 ἀνοῖξαι ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτῶν, τοῦ ἐπιστρέψαι ἀπὸ σκότους εἰς φῶς καὶ τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ σατανᾶ ἐπὶ τὸν θεόν, τοῦ λαβεῖν αὐτοὺς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν καὶ κλῆρον ἐν τοῖς ἡγιασμένοις πίστει τῇ εἰς ἐμέ. 19 ὅθεν, βασιλεῦ Ἀγρίππα, οὐκ ἐγενόμην ἀπειθὴς τῇ οὐρανίῳ ὀπτασίᾳ, 20 ἀλλὰ τοῖς ἐν Δαμασκῷ πρῶτόν τε καὶ Ἱεροσολύμοις, πᾶσάν τε τὴν χώραν τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ τοῖς ἔθνεσιν ἀπήγγελλον μετανοεῖν καὶ ἐπιστρέφειν ἐπὶ τὸν θεόν, ἄξια τῆς μετανοίας ἔργα πράσσοντας. 21 ἕνεκα τούτων με Ἰουδαῖοι συλλαβόμενοι ὄντα ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ ἐπειρῶντο διαχειρίσασθαι. 22 ἐπικουρίας οὖν τυχὼν τῆς ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄχρι τῆς ἡμέρας ταύτης ἕστηκα μαρτυρόμενος μικρῷ τε καὶ μεγάλῳ, οὐδὲν ἐκτὸς λέγων ὧν τε οἱ προφῆται ἐλάλησαν μελλόντων γίνεσθαι καὶ Μωϋσῆς, 23 εἰ παθητὸς ὁ Χριστός, εἰ πρῶτος ἐξ ἀναστάσεως νεκρῶν φῶς μέλλει καταγγέλλειν τῷ τε λαῷ καὶ τοῖς ἔθνεσιν.

 

[TLK Valentine]

How so?

God said Adam would die. Adam didn't.

How much clearer does it have to get?

 

[TLK Valentine]

It's been done quite well in the past:

Acts 26: (WEB) (Paul recounts his conversion to King Agrippa)

12 “Whereupon as I traveled to Damascus with the authority and commission from the chief priests, 13 at noon, O king, I saw on the way a light from the sky, brighter than the sun, shining around me and those who traveled with me. 14 When we had all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice saying to me in the Hebrew language, ‘Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? It is hard for you to kick against the goads.’

15 “I said, ‘Who are you, Lord?’

“He said, ‘I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 16 But arise, and stand on your feet, for I have appeared to you for this purpose: to appoint you a servant and a witness both of the things which you have seen, and of the things which I will reveal to you; 17 delivering you from the people, and from the Gentiles, to whom I send you, 18 to open their eyes, that they may turn from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive remission of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’

19 “Therefore, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the heavenly vision, 20 but declared first to them of Damascus, at Jerusalem, and throughout all the country of Judea, and also to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, doing works worthy of repentance. 21 For this reason the Jews seized me in the temple and tried to kill me. 22 Having therefore obtained the help that is from God, I stand to this day testifying both to small and great, saying nothing but what the prophets and Moses said would happen, 23 how the Christ must suffer, and how, by the resurrection of the dead, he would be first to proclaim light both to these people and to the Gentiles.”(WEB)

The below in the Greek if that is what you prefer:

12 Ἐν οἷς πορευόμενος εἰς τὴν Δαμασκὸν μετ’ ἐξουσίας καὶ ἐπιτροπῆς τῆς τῶν ἀρχιερέων 13 ἡμέρας μέσης κατὰ τὴν ὁδὸν εἶδον, βασιλεῦ, οὐρανόθεν ὑπὲρ τὴν λαμπρότητα τοῦ ἡλίου περιλάμψαν με φῶς καὶ τοὺς σὺν ἐμοὶ πορευομένους· 14 πάντων τε καταπεσόντων ἡμῶν εἰς τὴν γῆν ἤκουσα φωνὴν λέγουσαν πρός με τῇ Ἑβραΐδι διαλέκτῳ, Σαοὺλ Σαούλ, τί με διώκεις; σκληρόν σοι πρὸς κέντρα λακτίζειν. 15 ἐγὼ δὲ εἶπα, τίς εἶ, κύριε; ὁ δὲ κύριος εἶπεν, ἐγώ εἰμι Ἰησοῦς ὃν σὺ διώκεις. 16 ἀλλὰ ἀνάστηθι καὶ στῆθι ἐπὶ τοὺς πόδας σου· εἰς τοῦτο γὰρ ὤφθην σοι, προχειρίσασθαί σε ὑπηρέτην καὶ μάρτυρα ὧν τε εἶδές ὧν τε ὀφθήσομαί σοι, 17 ἐξαιρούμενός σε ἐκ τοῦ λαοῦ καὶ ἐκ τῶν ἐθνῶν, εἰς οὓς ἐγὼ ἀποστέλλω σε 18 ἀνοῖξαι ὀφθαλμοὺς αὐτῶν, τοῦ ἐπιστρέψαι ἀπὸ σκότους εἰς φῶς καὶ τῆς ἐξουσίας τοῦ σατανᾶ ἐπὶ τὸν θεόν, τοῦ λαβεῖν αὐτοὺς ἄφεσιν ἁμαρτιῶν καὶ κλῆρον ἐν τοῖς ἡγιασμένοις πίστει τῇ εἰς ἐμέ. 19 ὅθεν, βασιλεῦ Ἀγρίππα, οὐκ ἐγενόμην ἀπειθὴς τῇ οὐρανίῳ ὀπτασίᾳ, 20 ἀλλὰ τοῖς ἐν Δαμασκῷ πρῶτόν τε καὶ Ἱεροσολύμοις, πᾶσάν τε τὴν χώραν τῆς Ἰουδαίας καὶ τοῖς ἔθνεσιν ἀπήγγελλον μετανοεῖν καὶ ἐπιστρέφειν ἐπὶ τὸν θεόν, ἄξια τῆς μετανοίας ἔργα πράσσοντας. 21 ἕνεκα τούτων με Ἰουδαῖοι συλλαβόμενοι ὄντα ἐν τῷ ἱερῷ ἐπειρῶντο διαχειρίσασθαι. 22 ἐπικουρίας οὖν τυχὼν τῆς ἀπὸ τοῦ θεοῦ ἄχρι τῆς ἡμέρας ταύτης ἕστηκα μαρτυρόμενος μικρῷ τε καὶ μεγάλῳ, οὐδὲν ἐκτὸς λέγων ὧν τε οἱ προφῆται ἐλάλησαν μελλόντων γίνεσθαι καὶ Μωϋσῆς, 23 εἰ παθητὸς ὁ Χριστός, εἰ πρῶτος ἐξ ἀναστάσεως νεκρῶν φῶς μέλλει καταγγέλλειν τῷ τε λαῷ καὶ τοῖς ἔθνεσιν.

So that's it, and nothing more -- the absolute glory of the presence of God, perfectly encapsulated in human speech. That's what everyone is going on about.

Can't say I see what all the hubbub is about...

 

[redleghunter]

God said Adam would die. Adam didn't.

How much clearer does it have to get?

Adam did die. On the day Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they were told they would return to dust as they came from dust. The curse of death was sentenced on that day for their physical bodies and they also became spiritually dead in their trespasses in need of Gods' Grace.

 

[redleghunter]

So that's it, and nothing more -- the absolute glory of the presence of God, perfectly encapsulated in human speech. That's what everyone is going on about.

Can't say I see what all the hubbub is about...

Judas came to the same conclusion you did when he found out he was not going to 'get anything' worldly from this Jesus movement.

 

[Loudmouth]

Adam did die. On the day Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they were told they would return to dust as they came from dust. The curse of death was sentenced on that day for their physical bodies and they also became spiritually dead in their trespasses in need of Gods' Grace.

If I said that eating a piece of fruit would kill you, and you died 80 years after eating the fruit, wouldn't you think I was full of it?

 

[redleghunter]

If I said that eating a piece of fruit would kill you, and you died 80 years after eating the fruit, wouldn't you think I was full of it?

Are you God?

 

[Loudmouth]

Are you God?

I don't see why it would matter. If you die 80 years later, it's pretty obvious that the fruit didn't kill you.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Adam did die. On the day Adam and Eve ate of the fruit they were told they would return to dust as they came from dust. The curse of death was sentenced on that day for their physical bodies and they also became spiritually dead in their trespasses in need of Gods' Grace.

And yet they lived on for quite some time until the curse finally took effect.

Sorry, no. God didn't say that Adam would be cursed to die on that day, He said that he would die on that day.

And Adam lived on for quite a few days afterward...

 

[TLK Valentine]

Judas came to the same conclusion you did when he found out he was not going to 'get anything' worldly from this Jesus movement.

Not getting anything otherworldly, either... I've heard more inspiring descriptions from Tolkien -- there's an author who knew how to write a decent entrance...

Is God truly so small and unimposing that He can be caged in human speech without so much as a "you had to be there"?

And by the way, your interpretation of Judas' motives is lacking in Biblical support... you might want to fix that.

 

[redleghunter]

I don't see why it would matter. If you die 80 years later, it's pretty obvious that the fruit didn't kill you.

How do you know?

The act of disobedience did.

 

[redleghunter]

And yet they lived on for quite some time until the curse finally took effect.

Sorry, no. God didn't say that Adam would be cursed to die on that day, He said that he would die on that day.

And Adam lived on for quite a few days afterward...

I am ready for your exegesis on Genesis 2-3 in the Hebrew.

 

[redleghunter]

Not getting anything otherworldly, either... I've heard more inspiring descriptions from Tolkien -- there's an author who knew how to write a decent entrance...

Is God truly so small and unimposing that He can be caged in human speech without so much as a "you had to be there"?

And by the way, your interpretation of Judas' motives is lacking in Biblical support... you might want to fix that.

Is your point the Fullness of God cannot be known so we should not expect to attempt to approach Him?

 

[Extraneous]

Not getting anything otherworldly, either... I've heard more inspiring descriptions from Tolkien -- there's an author who knew how to write a decent entrance...

Is God truly so small and unimposing that He can be caged in human speech without so much as a "you had to be there"?

And by the way, your interpretation of Judas' motives is lacking in Biblical support... you might want to fix that.

Maybe the problem isnt that God is too small, but maybe its that you are too big. You cannot see past yourself. This isnt a harsh crack on you, its really just an observation. WE are all like that as well. Look beyond yourself and maybe you will see something else. Don't you wonder about your soul? In a question it would be- Who am i? Why am i here? How can i live forever?

 

[TLK Valentine]

I am ready for your exegesis on Genesis 2-3 in the Hebrew.

After you.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Is your point the Fullness of God cannot be known so we should not expect to attempt to approach Him?

If that was my point, it would've been what I said.

How can you use language to so utterly encapsulate God when you can't even use it to grasp the point a mere mortal such as myself is making?

 

[TLK Valentine]

Maybe the problem isnt that God is too small, but maybe its that you are too big. You cannot see past yourself. This isnt a harsh crack on you, its really just an observation.

You're not paying attention to the conversation. Not a harsh crack on you, it's really just an observation.

Could it be that the problem the OP is having with the Old Testament is that it's coming from the assumption that it's a literal, word-for-word understanding of the nature of God?

But wouldn't that only be possible if God were capable of being pigeonholed and defined in human language?

Is God capable of being so easily caged? I kind of doubt that He is.

But there are those who like their gods small and easily controlled; who am I to deny them their security?

WE are all like that as well. Look beyond yourself and maybe you will see something else. Don't you wonder about your soul?

You're so quick to assume I haven't done so -- or that I don't continue to do so...

In a question it would be- Who am i? Why am i here? How can i live forever?

Better questions: Do I want to live forever? Where was I before I was here? Would I wish to return?

 

[redleghunter]

After you.

It was your assertion.

 

[redleghunter]

If that was my point, it would've been what I said.

How can you use language to so utterly encapsulate God when you can't even use it to grasp the point a mere mortal such as myself is making?

The Scriptures are all about God communicating His revelation to mankind within our limitations.

Look up Rock of Ages hymn and the Scriptures which inspired the song.

Here's a good start:

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/3120.htm

If you think Tolkien and Lewis were good, wow now you can read Spurgeon.